Axindweth

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

7 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

We don't know that. I would have said that bringing back Odium would be out of character for Kell, but I would have said leading the GB was out of character as well. Clearly there's a lot going on behind the scenes we have no idea about.

Brandon said awhile ago that Kell would lead the Ghostbloods if he could lead a Rosharan secret society. The GBs always felt like Kell’s team - that’s why so many of us theorized that he was.

Though I think we all expected to be wrong and are still reeling from being RIGHT.

The GBs are in character for Kell. Restoring Odium is not, and I doubt that had anything to with his plans.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

In previous books, they seemed a lot more neutral. In RoW they seem to be working with Team Odium. It could be a long con-- that seems a very Kelsier thing to do-- but that would still fall under "mysterious agenda" stuff. Still a dangling "Why?"

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

18 minutes ago, Necessary Eagle said:

In previous books, they seemed a lot more neutral. In RoW they seem to be working with Team Odium. It could be a long con-- that seems a very Kelsier thing to do-- but that would still fall under "mysterious agenda" stuff. Still a dangling "Why?"

Really? It seemed to me they were after capturing a Herald so Kell can interrogate him on being a Cognitive Shadow. Surprisingly straight forward.

Mraize wasn’t teaming up with the Fused; they controlled the tower and he needed Shadesmar access. If you don’t care whose in charge, you work with whoever is.

[Necessary Eagle she/her]

I suppose so. Though as @DracostarA said, it looks like the GB were enemies of the bechickened Terrisman, and that the Terrisman was the one trying to stop Axindwith.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 minute ago, Necessary Eagle said:

I suppose so. Though as @DracostarA said, it looks like the GB were enemies of the bechickened Terrisman, and that the Terrisman was the one trying to stop Axindwith.

But we don’t know the context. If Kell is up to things he doesn’t want Saze to know (which really isn’t an ‘if’), and the Terrisman works for Saze, then the GBs could be after the man for a completely unrelated reason.

Hypothetically: Saze decides to send a Terrisman to Roshar to check things out. Terrisman discovers Axinthew, tells Saze, then works to subvert her.

A few years down the line he discovers the GBs. GBs decide to kill him before he can report on Thaidakar’s identity - which the man figured out immediately because it’s a Scadrian word associated with Kell.

So you can have two completely unrelated events. And this is just one hypothetical.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Really? It seemed to me they were after capturing a Herald so Kell can interrogate him on being a Cognitive Shadow. Surprisingly straight forward.

By killing him?

And Kelsier knew more centuries ago. He made a body for himself and gained additional abilities.And why a Cognitive Shadow suffering the same limitations as himself? Granted Kelsier would do such a thing but he'd turn to Threnody or, even likelier, abduct a Returned for study.

 

[Rorzikel]

I mean we know he wouldn't like Honor:

AllomancerSam

If given the opportunity, which Shard would Kelsier want to punch next?

Brandon Sanderson

He would find it really fun to punch Honor. Really fun.

Orem signing (Dec. 21, 2017)
And clearly his organization is collaborating with the Fused now, I'm not feeling the same pushback as some of you that Kelsier couldn't possibly have assisted in helping Odium's side.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 minutes ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

 And clearly his organization is collaborating with the Fused now, I'm not feeling the same pushback as some of you that Kelsier couldn't possibly have assisted in helping Odium's side.

I guess nobody would argue that Kelsier would not do all these things if he found them necessary or only beneficial. Ruthless is his middle name.

But why? His motivation is kind of a social revolutionary, but at the very top, to survive. If it saved the rest of the Cosmere, he would let Roshar burn. What could he hope to gain from Odium winning?

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 hour ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I mean we know he wouldn't like Honor:

AllomancerSam

If given the opportunity, which Shard would Kelsier want to punch next?

Brandon Sanderson

He would find it really fun to punch Honor. Really fun.

Orem signing (Dec. 21, 2017)
And clearly his organization is collaborating with the Fused now, I'm not feeling the same pushback as some of you that Kelsier couldn't possibly have assisted in helping Odium's side.

They’re collaborating with people who control the tower - same as they did before. The identity of the controllers have changed, not the GBs actions.

 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

By killing him?

And Kelsier knew more centuries ago. He made a body for himself and gained additional abilities.And why a Cognitive Shadow suffering the same limitations as himself? Granted Kelsier would do such a thing but he'd turn to Threnody or, even likelier, abduct a Returned for study.

 

From what we’ve seen the Heralds are the closest CSs to Kell. Threnodite Shades are nearly mindless and Returned don’t seem to work by the exact rules as everyone else.

Heralds live by continuous infusion of Honor’s essence via the Oathpact. Kell persists because of how deeply he was infused by infused by Preservation’s. It’s not the same, but it’s fairly close, and there’s a decent chance the GBs don’t know that it’s different.

There’s no indication that the GBs know capturing a Herald will kill them. If Kell is mistakenly assuming their existence is like his, ie. they were so deeply infused they don’t move on, then he has no reason to expect that capturing the Heralds would kill them. 

If you’re going to try an experiment, you want it done on something similar to what you eventually plan to use it on. If Kell can stop a Herald’s madness, then he can stop his own. If he can get a Herald off-world, then he can get off world. He needs someone like himself to serve as the guinea pig.

[DracostarA]

Quote

From what we’ve seen the Heralds are the closest CSs to Kell. Threnodite Shades are nearly mindless and Returned don’t seem to work by the exact rules as everyone else.

I think he's actually different. 

The Heralds and Returned are Cognitive Shadows attached back to their original bodies, much like Szeth but I guess they need more Investiture.

Unlike them, we know Kelsier can't be in his original body, he might be in a mistwraith/kandra or someone else's body but he can't be attached back to his original body since that's no longer in tact.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 minute ago, DracostarA said:

I think he's actually different. 

The Heralds and Returned are Cognitive Shadows attached back to their original bodies, much like Szeth but I guess they need more Investiture.

Unlike them, we know Kelsier can't be in his original body, he might be in a mistwraith/kandra or someone else's body but he can't be attached back to his original body since that's no longer in tact.

The Heralds actually generate new bodies out of Investiture, which is what I suspect Kell did once he had a tie to the physical realm. He’s like a Spren, and they all seem to be able to that once the tie is strong enough.

[DracostarA]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Heralds actually generate new bodies out of Investiture, which is what I suspect Kell did once he had a tie to the physical realm. He’s like a Spren, and they all seem to be able to that once the tie is strong enough.

I disagree with Kelsier only because of Hemalurgy. He has a spike through one eye and I think by the nature of Hemalurgy it needs something to be spiked to.

I doubt it would be anything to do with Investiture because that would suggest some link with Harmony, which is unlikely since Harmony doesn't seem to have much idea what he's up to now.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

From what we’ve seen the Heralds are the closest CSs to Kell.

I am afraid I need to point out that the Ghostbloods have enough reach that a middle manager can have a trophy room with objects even from Yolen.

16 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Threnodite Shades are nearly mindless and Returned don’t seem to work by the exact rules as everyone else.

But that is the whole point. You want to look at a working example to learn how it is done. And you would pick something reasonably common, so that your problem that has been persisting for centuries does not depend on catching one of the rarest creatures in the whole Cosmere.

 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I need to point out that the Ghostbloods have enough reach that a middle manager can have a trophy room with objects even from Yolen.

But that is the whole point. You want to look at a working example to learn how it is done. And you would pick something reasonably common, so that your problem that has been persisting for centuries does not depend on catching one of the rarest creatures in the whole Cosmere.

 

For all we know, he has. It may not have worked, or he may need someone more like himself.

 

29 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

I disagree with Kelsier only because of Hemalurgy. He has a spike through one eye and I think by the nature of Hemalurgy it needs something to be spiked to.

I doubt it would be anything to do with Investiture because that would suggest some link with Harmony, which is unlikely since Harmony doesn't seem to have much idea what he's up to now.

I think he was spiked in the Cognitive Realm. You can Spike a Spren, after all. And this book has shown that Spren can be made to physically manifest in the physical realm through the manipulation of Connection, though their bodies aren’t humanoid enough for them to survive. A human Spren wouldn’t have that issue.

I don’t think it has anything to do with a specific Shard’s Investiture. It seems to have more to do with Connection.

[Isilel]

On 19.11.2020 at 11:11 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

They’re collaborating with people who control the tower - same as they did before. The identity of the controllers have changed, not the GBs actions.

 Kalak thinks that it was the Ghostbloods who killed Jezrien, but we know that it was Moash at the behest of the Fused. So, how did the Ghostbloods get the rare raysium dagger? For that matter, can it be that the Ghostbloods were the ones who designed the knives and shared this technology with the Fused in exchange for getting trapped Herald souls, which they promised to take off-world, i.e. "somewhere safe" per Raboniel? To me it looks like there is a much deeper level of cooperation between the 2 parties than is immediately obvious. And Thaidakar is really playing with fire concerning the safety of his own planet.

 

Quote

There’s no indication that the GBs know capturing a Herald will kill them. If Kell is mistakenly assuming their existence is like his, ie. they were so deeply infused they don’t move on, then he has no reason to expect that capturing the Heralds would kill them.

I kinda wonder about this. It is up to Sanderson, of course, but the Heralds did channel enormous amounts of investiture in the past, due to inefficency of the Honorblades and their direct tap to Honor, and if that was not enough to make them properly persistent cognitive shadows without the Oathpact, it seems that nothing on Roshar can, short of being a former Vessel*. Can it be instead that Jezrien did have enough investiture to linger, but being cut off from the Oathpact finally let him _chose_ to move on and die for good? Also, if he was trapped in a perfect gemstone, investiture shouldn't have leaked out of it at all, should it?

Like in Mistborn the Secret History:

Spoiler

The Lord Ruler, Leras, Ati and Vin could have all chosen to stay - they were invested enough, but decided to move on?

*Speaking of which, Rayse seems just the kind of person to hang around after death to me. But maybe (hopefully!) dying by Nightblood precludes it.

P.S: Ghostblood's confidence in their ability to trap a Herald and bring them to another planet means that they have already succeeded in transporting normal spren out of Rosharan system, right? Which is very exciting for a number of reasons. Particularly if spren bonds aren't cut by this, just temporarily disabled.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Isilel

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 20.11.2020 at 0:09 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

For all we know, he has. It may not have worked, or he may need someone more like himself.

I hope for his sake that he is not locked up in a gem stone. And even so, how would they get that gem to him? The Ghostbloods know that Stormlight won't work. The likeliest outcome of doing this to a Herald or Fused in a gem is you standing somewhere between the worlds and pulling on a gem that won't budge.

7 minutes ago, Isilel said:

 Kalak thinks that it was the Ghostbloods who killed Jezrien, but we know that it was Moash at the behest of the Fused. So, how did the Ghostbloods get the rare raysium dagger?

Are we sure it was Raysium? In fact, it would be odd for Odium only specifically to have a metal with those properties. If I had to guess I would suspect to Ghostbloods' dagger to be made with Atium.

7 minutes ago, Isilel said:

For that matter, can it be that the Ghostbloods were the ones who designed the knives and shared this technology with the Fused in exchange for getting trapped Herald souls, which they promised to take off-world, i.e. "somewhere safe" per Raboniel?

When Mraize and Raboniel negotiated it really did not sound like an existing friendly relationship.

7 minutes ago, Isilel said:

I kinda wonder about this. It is up to Sanderson, of course, but the Heralds did channel enormous amounts of investiture in the past, due to inefficency of the Honorblades and their direct tap to Honor, and if that was not enough to make them properly persistent cognitive shadows without the Oathpact,

Channeling does not work. You have to hold it.

 

[+Czernobog]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Are we sure it was Raysium?

Raboniel referred to the metal as such. Unreliable narrator seems unlikely in this case, to me. 

[+Harrycrapper]

I haven't seen it said here so I figure I'll point it out. The Ghostbloods wanted to capture Kelek to interrogate him. They never said that they'd bring him off world to have Kelsier talk to him. They wanted to interrogate him to figure out how Gavilar was moving Voidlight/Voidspren off Braize as we saw in the prologue, that's the secret they're after. I know he hadn't yet figured out how to get a Herald/spren/Investiture out of the system, but Gaviliar seemed to think he was on track to figuring that out.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

2 hours ago, Czernobog said:

Raboniel referred to the metal as such. Unreliable narrator seems unlikely in this case, to me. 

Their dagger. That tells us nothing about the Ghostblood's dagger.

1 hour ago, Harrycrapper said:

I haven't seen it said here so I figure I'll point it out. The Ghostbloods wanted to capture Kelek to interrogate him. They never said that they'd bring him off world to have Kelsier talk to him. They wanted to interrogate him to figure out how Gavilar was moving Voidlight/Voidspren off Braize as we saw in the prologue, that's the secret they're after. I know he hadn't yet figured out how to get a Herald/spren/Investiture out of the system, but Gaviliar seemed to think he was on track to figuring that out.

Still. Kelsier has a body. Why Kalak? Why not just kidnap a Fused?

[+Czernobog]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Their dagger. That tells us nothing about the Ghostblood's dagger.

Ah. Valid point. So perhaps all god-metals can serve as investiture conductors. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Their dagger. That tells us nothing about the Ghostblood's dagger.

Still. Kelsier has a body. Why Kalak? Why not just kidnap a Fused?

The Heralds seem to be the closest to what Kell is. Also, Kalak had additional information they wanted. And Honor is dead, while Odium would notice if they ‘borrowed’ one of his Fused.

I love your ‘GB dagger is made of Atium’ theory.

[+Harrycrapper]

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Their dagger. That tells us nothing about the Ghostblood's dagger.

Still. Kelsier has a body. Why Kalak? Why not just kidnap a Fused?

They knew that Kelek had knowledge of what Gavilar was doing. They likely didn't want to experiment on him(or it wasn't their primary goal at least), they wanted his knowledge on Gavilar's experiments. It might have been why they were pursuing Amaram and the other Sons of Honor as well. Between them and Shallan they didn't find what they were looking for when hunting down the Sons of Honor in the Shattered Plains and Restares was the last remaining member who would have had the knowledge they seek. Well Nale also knew what was going on but he's significantly harder to apprehend given he has an entire order of Knights Radiant at his command.

[Isilel]

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Heralds seem to be the closest to what Kell is. 

Actually, the Fused are closer, as they are cognitive shadows stapled to a body, like he is. But maybe he'd prefer the Herald type of embodiment to get rid of the spike as the conduit to Harmony's influence. 

But yes, Kalak also knows things that they want to learn. Hm... If the Ghostblood dagger is different from the Fused one and atium is better at stealing investiture than raysium, then what happened to Jezrien wouldn't have necessarily happened to Kalak? I still don't understand how Jezrien's cognitive shadow could have faded so quickly if he was trapped in a perfect gemstone. Investiture isn't supposed to be able to leave it, so it shouldn't have mattered that his influx of it was capped. But maybe someone sabotaged the stone - or cutting Jezrien off from the Oathpact allowed him to choose death, as he had been unable to before. 

Do the Ghostbloods want BAM as a portable source of voidlight? Do they think that she could allow them to manipulate Connections of Rosharan investiture so that it can be easily transported? Why didn't they just try to trade information with Kalak - he wants to get out of Rosharan system as badly as Thaidakar wants off Scadrial, why not pool resources instead of hunting him down? This whole operation seems severely bungled to me. I hope that Mraize gets his come-uppance not from the heroes, but from his superiors.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

45 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Actually, the Fused are closer, as they are cognitive shadows stapled to a body, like he is. But maybe he'd prefer the Herald type of embodiment to get rid of the spike as the conduit to Harmony's influence. 

But yes, Kalak also knows things that they want to learn. Hm... If the Ghostblood dagger is different from the Fused one and atium is better at stealing investiture than raysium, then what happened to Jezrien wouldn't have necessarily happened to Kalak? I still don't understand how Jezrien's cognitive shadow could have faded so quickly if he was trapped in a perfect gemstone. Investiture isn't supposed to be able to leave it, so it shouldn't have mattered that his influx of it was capped. But maybe someone sabotaged the stone - or cutting Jezrien off from the Oathpact allowed him to choose death, as he had been unable to before. 

Do the Ghostbloods want BAM as a portable source of voidlight? Do they think that she could allow them to manipulate Connections of Rosharan investiture so that it can be easily transported? Why didn't they just try to trade information with Kalak - he wants to get out of Rosharan system as badly as Thaidakar wants off Scadrial, why not pool resources instead of hunting him down? This whole operation seems severely bungled to me. I hope that Mraize gets his come-uppance not from the heroes, but from his superiors.

This. This is EXACTLY what I think is going to happen. Mraize completely messed up.

I suspect this whole thing was a test for him - and he just failed. Badly.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

9 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

They knew that Kelek had knowledge of what Gavilar was doing. They likely didn't want to experiment on him(or it wasn't their primary goal at least), they wanted his knowledge on Gavilar's experiments.

This is true, but turns the Ghostbloods into foolish morons.

Kalak wants to get away. He would be overjoyed to cooperate. You send him a Seon and he would know that you are not talking crap. But no, you want an irreplacable asset to ram a dagger into his back. What is wrong with you? If you were Iyatil and Mraize suggested that to you, you'd ask him to explain and then most likely slit his throat. And then resign. You'd know that you have lost it.
That is wildly inconsistent with the level of competence the Ghostbloods have been displaying. We must rule that out.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Investiture isn't supposed to be able to leave it, so it shouldn't have mattered that his influx of it was capped. But maybe someone sabotaged the stone - or cutting Jezrien off from the Oathpact allowed him to choose death, as he had been unable to before. 

The raw Investiture may still be there. The pattern that was Jezrien is gone.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Do the Ghostbloods want BAM as a portable source of voidlight?

Do you build a nuclear reactor just to heat your swimming pool? It would work. Every Regal can produce voidlight.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Do they think that she could allow them to manipulate Connections of Rosharan investiture so that it can be easily transported?

You have Connector ferings, if you are from Scadrial. Even compounders.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Why didn't they just try to trade information with Kalak - he wants to get out of Rosharan system as badly as Thaidakar wants off Scadrial, why not pool resources instead of hunting him down? This whole operation seems severely bungled to me. I hope that Mraize gets his come-uppance not from the heroes, but from his superiors.

Right, that would be a monumental blunder. But not just from Mraize. This operation needed:

• a Seon
• Shallan
• a god metal
• a strange kind of fabrial
• a weapons test

And here the demands get outrageous. You cannot just send this thing and hope and pray (to whom?) that it work. Even if you have traded or captured this dagger from Odium's forces you cannot know whether you have been duped or acquired damaged goods or are lacking the proper operating procedures. You have to test. Just imagine you got Shallan into Lasting Integrity, she stabbed him and he just screamed: Ouch!. Stop this, you stupid girl. Guards! - or, worse by far - just died and went to Damnation
And it gets worse. Whom do you test on? Kelsier, a Returned or a Fused. No of these options is good. If Mraize can just sign off on them, the Ghostbloods need to change their operating procedures quickly.

Something is fishy here.

56 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This. This is EXACTLY what I think is going to happen. Mraize completely messed up.

I suspect this whole thing was a test for him - and he just failed. Badly.

That goes higher up tthan just Mraize. There is some deep deception going on here. If I am paranoid enough, I would go and check the god metal in that dagger extremely thoroughly. Want to bet that it is Cultivationium? We are maybe two layers of secrets away from understanding.