Shadesmar question/is roshar thought to be flat?

[Chasmgoat he/him]

So, Roshar, like all planets, is round. But, several things stand out to me. First of all... Take a look at the roshar map here. So, in shadesmar, if you go past the Expanse of the Vapors, you will eventually come into Scadrial. But if roshar is round, wouldn't shadesmar also be round? That would make it so you can't go past the expanse of the Vapors into scadrial. My thought was that maybe rosharans think that roshar is flat. This is possible since highstorms prevent them from leaving their continent. So, if they think it is flat, would shadesmar appear flat? I am confused and if anyone understands what I just said and knows something I don't know, please let me know. Thank you.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

As far as I know that's not the case. Shadesmar simply has different topology than the Physical Realm, which leads to some interesting problems:

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Questioner 1

You said that moving people like that [Cognitive Shadows] or spren off-world, from Roshar is difficult.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner 1

What about physically, say the Ones Above visit them, and they fly away?

Brandon Sanderson

So one of the things you'll have to be asking questions and theorizing on is what happens if you try to carry a spren around the planet. What happens to their Cognitive sense, right? So you're on Roshar, right? So on the Physical Realm what would happen-- Because on Shadesmar, you have a flattened version. So there are questions for you to be theorizing implicit in that.  And one of them is, what happens, you cross a threshold circling the globe, your spren, what happens to them? Because-- Okay? This relates to the question you’re asking.

Questioner 2

Wait wait, you have a three dimensional plane coexisting with a two dimensional plane?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, two dimensional is the wrong term, but basically...

Questioner 3

Can you specify the mathematically projection used to create this? *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

We'll try to give it to you eventually, but this is the sort of stuff that I do that Peter's like "Oh man..." *laughter* "Alright give me the math Peter." "Ahhh what do you mean? I'm not a mathematician." "Eh, y'know. You're close." It is very convenient to have a physicist and a mathematician in my writing group.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

 

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Mason Wheeler

So, because the world is flat in Shadesmar, if there's a place where you can't cross, so if a Radiant was on a ship, they'd have trouble getting across, because their spren would be stuck behind that line of discontinuity. Is the Origin of Storms located on that line?

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question.

Footnote: The questioner is building off of this exchange.
Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

[Karger he/him]

Modern scholars believe Roshar to be round.  This is important for stormwardens who currently believe that only one highstorm exists and it orbits the globe.  Some older rosharan myths however talk about a mostly flat earth.  So educated mostly believe the first while some uneducated belive the second(when they think about it).

[Honorless he/him]

No, Roshar is not thought to be flat. Rosharans are aware planets are spherical, and there's in-world debate whether Highstorms have an origin or if they just go round the planet. They measured the speed of the Everstorm and determined that it did go around the planet at more or less a uniform speed (though Odium can influence that).

Shadesmar probably just appears flat because that's how we perceive land to be. We can't see the curvature of our planet. We often think of distances as straight lines (barring uneven terrain). Shadesmar just reflects that perception of the land.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Honorless

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Modern scholars believe Roshar to be round.  This is important for stormwardens who currently believe that only one highstorm exists and it orbits the globe.  Some older rosharan myths however talk about a mostly flat earth.  So educated mostly believe the first while some uneducated belive the second(when they think about it).

 

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

No, Roshar is not thought to be flat. Rosharans are aware planets are spherical, and there's in-world debate whether Highstorms have an origin or if they just go round the planet. They measured the speed of the Everstorm and determined that it did go around the planet at more or less a uniform speed (though Odium can influence that).

Shadesmar probably just appears flat because that's how we perceive land to be. We can't see the curvature of our planet. We often think of distances as straight lines (barring uneven terrain). Shadesmar just reflects that perception of the land.

I think it's likely a combination of these two factors you both mention: even though a spherical planet is a known thing among the educated, there is a large enough education gap (perpetuated by the literacy issue) that the average person probably doesnt actual know (or care) about that fact.  

 

The next question I now want to ask if it's always been that way, or if at any time the Knowledge was commonly accepted enough to affect Shadesmar Topology, particularly around the time/generation of the Migration, when the topic of how different Worlds relate to each other was on everyone's mind.  

[kaellok he/him]

56 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think it's likely a combination of these two factors you both mention: even though a spherical planet is a known thing among the educated, there is a large enough education gap (perpetuated by the literacy issue) that the average person probably doesnt actual know (or care) about that fact.

The idea that the Earth is flat has been widely debunked by scholars since at least the 500s BC, so I'm positive that the educated on Roshar have known that it's spherical for that long.  (The entire idea that people used to think that the Earth was flat seems to be at least somewhat intentional, occurring mostly between 1870-1920, and used mostly to mock pre-modern civilizations of the time.)

However, the limited number of sea-faring people on Roshar in comparison to Earth could greatly impact how prevalent a viewpoint it is among the common people.    Even the uneducated in primarily seafaring societies have largely held to the belief that the Earth is self-evidently rounded; it is hard to argue with seeing a masted ship disappear along the horizon long before the masts themselves do.

I would assume that the Thaylens as a people at least generally have an understanding that Roshar is rounded.  Seeing a viewpoint from someone not well-educated and flying through the sky where it would possibly also be self-evident (depending on how high they fly) would help shed some light on cultures that have a different common understanding.