RoW Chapter 18 Discussion

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

And how many nobles would be considering switching to Odium? At least the Parshmen would let them keep their slaves, maintain their traditions and essentially what rudimentary political constitution they have, in terms of the vague sense of "proper behaviours and laws". What's the point of fighting for a queen who given her track record is set to erase any recognition that you're better than a darkeyes? From their perspective, she's using despotic authority with a fairly weak legal basis to reach down and destroy the very basis of a stable family, the patriarchy and society as a whole.

I don't believe that Jasnah is changing the distinction between lighteyes and darkeyes. Radiants are probably doing that all on their own. As for joining Odium, the parshmen conquered their country, killed their previous monarch, and are made entirely out of ex-slaves. So far, we've seen that jasnah has changed succession laws, allowing women to inherit titles and is going to announce an end to slavery. We haven't seen the highprinces reaction to Jasnah's proclamation, so I would reserve judgement until then.

[Greywatch she/her]

18 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

@Greywatch I don't think @SpeakoftheDeval was arguing that Jasnah couldn't get things done in the short term.  She probably could, just like how many autocrats have done so in the past.  Emperor Marcus Aurelius, Alexander the Great, Emperor Qi Shi Huang and so on made incredibly dramatic changes over the course of their rulerships.  The problem was, their changes didn't really last.  I think it is fair to say that if changes are going to be made, there do need to be dramatic consequences to making steep changes in Alethi society.  Even if you think the changes are good, Sanderson does need to show that changes can't happen overnight.

Implied first and then stated outright at the end is the idea that for Jasnah to "get away with it", it would be unrealistic. I don't think so.

[SpeakoftheDeval]

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Yeah, sure, it just seems like a strong reaction to something that we don't know how it's being played - and especially in light of how my strongest impression of the Alethi princedoms is how the people opposing the Kholins keep getting knocked off - strong social backlash doesn't necessarily ring true to me as the only reasonable option.

I mean what else do you think they would do? For now possibly they might think there are bigger fish to fry but long term? 

 

Is it really satisfying if the Kholins just face no consequences for their actions?

 

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

While I agree with your premise some of Jasnah's moves I think are less controversial then you might think.  Yes Alethkar does have incredibly well entrenched gender norms but even in other societies with the same you still had cases of, for example, female rulers.  Jasnah saying that competent woman can inherit land would probably be seen less as a progressive move then a concession to the fact that large numbers of landholding men are going to be killed and some already have been.  She has not freed slaves yet but given the confusion and the fact that singers will employ humans she can argue freeing slaves is another necessary concession.  It is not like she is getting rid of the entire rank system.

 

Female rulers have happened sure, but normally in cases where the last king doesn't have an heir. If there is a male heir present, then the obvious solution is a female regent, which theoretically is exactly what should've happened both with Jasnah and Gavinor and Laral and her sons. The Kholin family are in a unique position and perhaps have leeway to temporarily change things to help the war effort, but I think long term everyone will be expecting Gavinor to be crowned as soon as the wars over, whether Jasnahs still around or not. In fact this change will perhaps widely be seen as Jasnah changing the law so that her getting the power to change the law isn't illegal anymore, so that even when the war is over there will be a legal basis for her to still be queen. In fact, earlier when people were wondering why she would receive Laral as citylady officially, it makes sense that she'd do so to normalise and attempt to legitimise this legal innovation that is the basis of her own power.  She's probably going to try and get a fairly sizable crowd to watch her officially confirm Laral, implicitly getting their assent for it.

 

The rank system probably does feel embattled though and they're probably looking for explicit support, not just hostile passivity from a monarch. On the one hand radiants are throwing it out of order, and on the other high placed Kholins don't seem to care about maintaining their station. Anything less than active endorsement of the rank system, or in other words if Jasnah does the logical thing and gives darkeyes high positions thus implicitly denying the system, is an attack on the system and they'll try and fight it eventually. As always, yes this is definitely exceptional circumstances and people probably just want to get through it, but they'll also probably be looking for a return to normalcy afterwards. In fact the reactionary backlash could wind up with a more ossified hierarchy than before. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gilphon]

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

If someone says aluminum spears then I will of course change my position.  However I find it odd that aluminum is being kept as a mystery.  What possible reason would Brandon have for not just saying it? 

To let us piece it together ourselves so we can feel smart, and to emphasize the fact that their knowledge of Fabrial stuff is still very much incomplete. Just like when he didn't confirm that Steel is used in repulsers, even though that's obviously what it would be. And, to get slightly more speculative, having something that's a mystery in the lecture being understood in the present day shows us how quickly they're advancing; a lecture from just a few months ago is already outdated. 

And I would further argue that the description is too perfect a match for aluminium for any other explanation to make much sense- If any of the other 15 'normals' metals had similar Investiture-resisting properties, we definitely would've heard about at some point in the Mistborn books, so it can't be any of them. And the detail of it being an extremely light fits right in as well. I suppose it's vaguely possible that it could've been Odium's god metal, but that would be a bizarre bit of misdirection on Brandon's part, given that we could easily tell the difference between the two from colour. 

But anyway. I believe that this epigraph tells us that the spears are not Aluminium or any of the metals Navani has previously mentioned. Gold, Copper, Bendalloy, Electrum and Odium's Godmetal are the wrong colour, so we can eliminate those as well. Which leaves Chromium, Nicrosil, Duralumin and Cadmium as possibilities. Cadmium I think is obviously the least likely of those. I do not think that there's a smoking gun we can use to narrow it down conclusively from the three we have left, but I believe that the effect described fits Duralumin the best, and that moving into talking about Duralumin right after talking about Aluminium makes sense from a flow perspective. 

[SpeakoftheDeval]

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I don't believe that Jasnah is changing the distinction between lighteyes and darkeyes. Radiants are probably doing that all on their own. As for joining Odium, the parshmen conquered their country, killed their previous monarch, and are made entirely out of ex-slaves. So far, we've seen that jasnah has changed succession laws, allowing women to inherit titles and is going to announce an end to slavery. We haven't seen the highprinces reaction to Jasnah's proclamation, so I would reserve judgement until then.

 

Yeah I guess we've just got to wait and see. 

 

You are right though that radiants are upending the system so the privilege that lighteyes used to have will need to change its justification, but privilege is far more likely to morph and maintain itself than just be obliterated. When in America slaves got their freedom, upending the social order in ways that are perhaps comparable to the lighteyes darkeyes thing, white supremacy in the south didn't just die away, for all that we may wish it had. It morphed to maintain privilege. 

 

Odium probably seems like a bad option at the moment you're right, but if long term Jasnah doesn't refuse to pull back these reforms and people find out that the Singers have more or less maintained alethi social structure, it might start looking like a better option. 

[Greywatch she/her]

@SpeakoftheDeval Satisfying? I don't know - we haven't seen what it'll actually look like yet.

[SomeRandomPeasant she/her]

7 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Implied first and then stated outright at the end is the idea that for Jasnah to "get away with it", it would be unrealistic. I don't think so.

I admit that my English isn't the best but I don't understand what you are implying here.  I don't know where you are getting the idea that I am saying that Jasnah is "getting away with it" as if she is making these changes for selfish reasons.  I am curious why you would argue that it is realistic for Vorin society accept these reforms without any backlash Why do you think so?

[+robardin he/him]

3 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Laral is a Citylady of Sadeas Princedom, as we don't know the exactly state of house Sadeas after Ialai's death it makes sense for me to Jasnah take care of this minor succession issue. I think you are overthinking this

I am not sure what "overthinking" I am doing, except to note that normally, a new citylord (or here, a citylady) for Hearthstone would not be something the ruling monarch of Alethkar would bother with. Then again, with so many people gathered at Urithiru, why not.

I am suggesting that the importance of Hearthstone seems to have risen from what Kaladin had realized on his return there was "not important enough to have stewardship over any of the highprince's lands"; and that Roshone, as its citylord, was "only a first point of contact with surrounding villages". As such, Roshone - and now Laral - would most likely only have been of the sixth dahn, as that is what Dalinar suggested Kaladin do as a fourth dahn Shardbearer in Oathbringer ("Just make sure you have a good steward, wise scribes, and some solid men of the fifth and sixth dahns to lead the towns"), and Hearthstone is a backwater. The "steward" would be higher ranked and span multiple towns/citylords, and then that steward would report to someone like Amaram, who reported to highprince Sadeas.

And that that importance - at least with respect to Dalinar et al. - has more to do with Kaladin's ties there than its location. Kaladin's "lands" don't encompass it, as it is in the Sadeas princedom, and his own lands given to him as being in the fourth dahn were "on the south fork of the Deathbend River" on the way to Kholinar, with six or seven villages in it.

It was convenient to use that as cover to extract The Mink, as it was close to the Herdazian border and they could use the excuse that it was Kaladin's hometown (with his parents there) as a premise for the evacuation. But it shouldn't stand up to scrutiny.

I was surprised the Fused didn't give more thought questioning why Hearthstone, of all places, was worth evacuating as one of the first uses in the field of The Fourth Bridge? Concluding that the Mink (who they were searching for in the area) was part of it would be natural, but surely it'd have been easier to send just a few Windrunners to meet up with him somewhere in secret and fly off, rather than to mingle him with refugees in a town that would then be evacuated en masse by air?

Yet they seemed to have anticipated such a thing, because they had that whole "Surgebinding Supression" fabrial set up in Roshone's home.

Edited November 3, 2020 by robardin

[agrabes]

@SpeakoftheDeval Agree completely - if you look at real history too much change too fast never lasts in a calm, peaceful way.  In fact, the only example that comes to mind of many radical changes lasting long term is the transition from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire.  Julius Caesar claimed politically that he needed to be in power to implement reforms that would help the common people and he did get in office as Consul and then Dictator and implement these massive changes.  He was eventually assassinated, but his heir eventually won the resulting war of succession and kept most of the changes in place.  I think it's important to point out that Caesar was still assassinated even after the destructive civil wars between Gaius Marius and Sulla had pretty much purged all remaining strong leaders who could oppose him.  It was Caesar's own ally Pompey who led the opposition in his initial rise to power, then the seemingly cowed Senators who assassinated him.

I don't think that Sanderson will ignore this, even if some fans don't see it yet.  There will be a rebellion or at least major civil unrest in response to Jasnah's massive changes.  I think it will come as a surprise to the POV characters, because they are only looking at it in terms of objective right/wrong and morality.  The problem is that even if someone agrees with the morality of Jasnah's proposed changes they could still oppose them politically.  And there will be people who simply don't agree at all, or who agree but feel the changes should be implemented more slowly.  The only one who is savvy enough to see it is Navani, but she's majorly distracted and not focusing on internal Alethi politics.

[Greywatch she/her]

5 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I admit that my English isn't the best but I don't understand what you are implying here.  I don't know where you are getting the idea that I am saying that Jasnah is "getting away with it" as if she is making these changes for selfish reasons.  I am curious why you would argue that it is realistic for Vorin society accept these reforms without any backlash Why do you think so?

I didn't say it was realistic for Vorin society to accept these reforms without any backlash. I was responding to another member and disagreeing with them on the idea that if there was no backlash, that means it's unrealistic. There is a difference.

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

If I had to guess, these weird designs actually indicate that Urithiru was "alive" when the Sibling was active. 

... Urithiru is like an old rusty car that hasn't burned gas in years.  Urithiru is a corpse instead of an engine.

Yes, the descriptions of odd protuberances and passages that didn't seem to have any human purpose read like organic internal type things to me.

But a corpse? Tsk tsk tsk, look who knows so much! It so happens that Urithiru and the Sibling are only mostly dead!

 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Anyone who owns land even just a little is automatically of the fifth dahn.  It would not be unusual for protocol to require any landholder to present themselves at court while in the capital.

Yabbut I don't think Roshone "owned" Hearthstone. He ran it. Just like the house he moved into had not been Wistiow's personal home but the designated dwelling of the appointed citylord. And Hearthstone was of low enough importance that its citylord would agree to marry his only child to a darkeyes, albeit one of very high nahn.

For argument's sake, let's say Wistiow had lived another 5-10 years, the Final Desolation never happened, Kaladin had completed his training in Kharbranth to become a surgeon like his father, and the apparently agreed upon union between Kaladin and Laral took place. Do you think that would have made Kaladin citylord of Hearthstone upon Wistiow's passing? Or would a "real" lighteyes have been appointed to replace him, as happened with Roshone, while Kaladin and Laral would make their way in the world like Kaladin's parents did, as a high nahn family?

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

A very lovely chapter. It was nice seeing Kaladin with his family (Syl has settled in well) and Kaladin's change in attitude, especially around Lirin was a good change of pace. I'm not so sure about Kaladin deciding to become a surgeon again, since it kind of feels like it was more because he felt he had no other choice, rather than something he really wanted to do. I suppose figuring that out is part of his arc going forward.

I continue to love Navani's scientific discoveries. Can't wait to see them pay off one day.

[the_archduke]

There is precisely 0 chance that a dark-eyed man would have been allowed to be citylord of anything.  Remember the scandal when Kaladin was appointed as a captain of a bodyguard?  Kaladin and Laral could have had light-eyed children though.  I imagine mixed-eye color marriages would be rare, but there must be some provision for them.

[+robardin he/him]

Just now, Mage of Lirigon said:

A very lovely chapter. It was nice seeing Kaladin with his family (Syl has settled in well) ...

Oh yeah, I thought this was surprising as well, and speaks to significant "off-screen time": how naturally Kaladin's parents interact with Syl. She must show herself to them all the time, probably while talking about Kaladin, too. They only ever had boys (Kaladin and Tien, and now Oroden); at some level they must feel like they've kind of acquired a daughter (if not exactly a daughter-in-law) in Syl!

[SpeakoftheDeval]

@agrabes

And so the endless debate between reform and revolution continues. What could maybe be interesting is a rebellion that pushes Jasnah off the throne and either banishes her or makes her just give up on trying to fix society and go worldhopping to find a society that agrees with her views. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by SpeakoftheDeval

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

6 minutes ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

@agrabes

And so the endless debate between reform and revolution continues. What could maybe be interesting is a rebellion that pushes Jasnah off the throne and either banishes her or makes her just give up on trying to fix society and going worldhopping to find a society that agrees with her views. 

I think the chances of a revolution are rather slim, since most of the military power in Alethkar is focused in Dalinar's hand and her reforms are probably going to go over well with the majority of citizens.

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

@agrabes

And so the endless debate between reform and revolution continues. What could maybe be interesting is a rebellion that pushes Jasnah off the throne and either banishes her or makes her just give up on trying to fix society and go worldhopping to find a society that agrees with her views. 

Given the recent annotations, I really don't see this happening. But to each their own. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Aon Tia she/her]

Kaladin !! 
 

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Is Rock looking at a similar landscape right now? Kaladin wondered.

Aww. They are such good friends, guys! All hearts for them. 
 

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he had to decide today what that would be.

So today is the day!

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These oddities had been built for reasons they couldn’t yet fathom

And we can not wait to discover what is the tower on real like. I am sure it is wonderful. 
 

I think that in this book, Lirin first had to accept kaladin as a soldier then Kal will be able to swear his 4th oath. Seems like for kaladin, 4th oath is all about the resolution of his old dilemma, whether you can save lives as a soldier or only as a surgeon. 
I feel bad for Kal, he didn’t want to choose it, he dreaded it! Parental expectations! Even when you are grown up adult. Sighs.

[Karger he/him]

23 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yabbut I don't think Roshone "owned" Hearthstone. He ran it. Just like the house he moved into had not been Wistiow's personal home but the designated dwelling of the appointed citylord. And Hearthstone was of low enough importance that its citylord would agree to marry his only child to a darkeyes, albeit one of very high nahn.

The difference between the two is generally a convoluted legal question in feudal societies.  If Laural had been male I think Roshone being appointed would at the very minimum raised a few eyebrows. 

23 minutes ago, robardin said:

For argument's sake, let's say Wistiow had lived another 5-10 years, the Final Desolation never happened, Kaladin had completed his training in Kharbranth to become a surgeon like his father, and the apparently agreed upon union between Kaladin and Laral took place. Do you think that would have made Kaladin citylord of Hearthstone upon Wistiow's passing?

No but Laural would still probably have been compensated.  She also may have been made reagent if they had a lighteyed child.  I imagine that while not illegal darkeye lighteye marriages are pretty uncommon so some grey area probably exists.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Karger

[SpeakoftheDeval]

10 minutes ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I think the chances of a revolution are rather slim, since most of the military power in Alethkar is focused in Dalinar's hand and her reforms are probably going to go over well with the majority of citizens.

Military power is in dalinars hands for now, but it's not like his subordinates won't disobey him to restore the proper, religious government if they think he's a real long term threat to it. 

 

I also don't see how they'll go down well with the majority of citizens, especially as Alethkar doesn't have citizens it has subjects of the crown. That might seem pedantic but it reflects what political discourse is like at the moment- in general they don't believe in the equality of all mankind, they don't believe that an atheist can be ruler, they don't believe that slaves should be free. 

 

Even if a majority don't disagree in theory, which I can't imagine is the case, the rich and powerful who likely own many slaves along with their land would definitely hate this intrusion into their power and wealth, and as they're the ones with power it's their opinion that matters. 

 

@Pathfinder what do you mean the Jasnah being an important part of the back five books? 

 

Really that bit was just a random musing but the general point of consent are needed still stands. 

[Cheat Commando he/him]

1 hour ago, Solant said:

Laral has kids. A "Young Avenger" style team-up in the back 5 with Lift, Oroden, Cord, Laral's kids, and Shallan/ Adolin's kid(s) is the adventure Novella I never knew I needed until now. 

Don't forget Gavinor!!

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

 

@Pathfinder what do you mean the Jasnah being an important part of the back five books? 

I am referring specifically to this quote:

 

Spoiler

"I’ve avoided talking too much about Jasnah as a general rule, since I plan her to be a major (perhaps the major) character of the back five books, and so it’s best to keep focus off her for now. There will be plenty of time for discussions about her later."

 

I really don't see how she could no longer be involved in Roshar and the quote from Brandon still be true. So either Jasnah leaves and Brandon is lying, or Jasnah sticks around, and what Brandon says is accurate. I lean towards Brandon. So I do not think what you suggest is likely. But to each their own. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Mage of Lirigon he/him]

1 minute ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Military power is in dalinars hands for now, but it's not like his subordinates won't disobey him to restore the proper, religious government if they think he's a real long term threat to it. 

 

Dalinar has been a threat in that view for a while now, since around the time he was excommunicated, and he's only been going further what with his learning to read and write. It doesn't seem to have caused him much trouble thus far, probably because the inclusion of Radiancy into modern Roshar has shored up his position, since he is the de facto leader of the Radiants.

 

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I also don't see how they'll go down well with the majority of citizens, especially as Alethkar doesn't have citizens it has subjects of the crown. That might seem pedantic but it reflects what political discourse is like at the moment- in general they don't believe in the equality of all mankind, they don't believe that an atheist can be ruler, they don't believe that slaves should be free. 

Judging from what we saw this chapter, at least some as Jasnah's reforms seem aimed at improving the lot of the common man, not just the slaves. If she can do that, they'll follow her.

 

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Even if a majority don't disagree in theory, which I can't imagine is the case, the rich and powerful who likely own many slaves along with their land would definitely hate this intrusion into their power and wealth, and as they're the ones with power it's their opinion that matters. 

The rich and powerful in Alethkar are weaker than they've ever been due to the war. The center of Alethkar is now effectively Urithiru, and pretty much all remaining Alethi power is concentrated there. That's not to say they can't cause trouble depending on the situation, but I doubt it would be critical enough to really shake Jasnah's rule, especially since their main rivals like Sadeas and so forth are gone.

[Inky]

With regards to the Jasnah policy thing, we also haven't really seen much of Jasnah yet this book. We don't know the outcome of any of her political decisions yet, we haven't really looked into Alethi politics yet in RoW. We've got like 100 more chapters, I'm sure there'll be more dimensions to this situation 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Inky

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Is it just me that was made really uncomfortable by the whole Jasnah unilaterally changing inheritance laws? 

It's not just you. I had similar concerns about the off the cuff proposal to ban slavery and got called a slavery apologist for my troubles. Apparently suggestions that maybe Roshar should have different values than Earth, and that Alethkar should not have the same moral compunctions as the US makes you suspect.

She's not likely to be assassinated, but she should probably be deposed, and definitely should be viewed with skepticism by anyone not already pledged to her. Here's this brand new monarch, taking over for her brother who tried to get all other monarchs to submit to his uncle, who is seemingly uncaring about any structures in society and hellbent on stubbornly forcing her own vision of how society should work onto the rest of the world.

If I'm Gawx, I'm keeping her at arm's reach. If I'm one on the Makabaki Kings, I want to stay away from her unless I'm ready to be conquered by Alethkar. 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I think it's important to point out that Caesar was still assassinated even after the destructive civil wars between Gaius Marius and Sulla had pretty much purged all remaining strong leaders who could oppose him. 

I'll also point out that Sulla purged the political class, which Caesar did not replicate. It was only after his assassination that Marc Antony purged all political rivals (RIP Cicero). Clearly Jasnah is the Sulla analogue, right? The purges have already happened, which means she's the one who ordered them and wanted them to happen.

27 minutes ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

in general they don't believe in the equality of all mankind, they don't believe that an atheist can be ruler, they don't believe that slaves should be free. 

I want to highlight this, because it tracks exactly with what I've been saying. The reason why the USA struggled with slavery is because it was founded on the premise that all men are created equal. Alethkar, and Vorinism, has no such founding ideal. It is completely hierarchical, and I don't doubt that many think slavery is just and natural, just as some people are lighteyed and darkeyed, and some are high dahn and low dahn, some are kings and some are slaves. That's just how life works on Roshar.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Rainier
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