Healing the Heralds

[Master Silver]

So, this chapter, which emphasizes the brokenness of the Heralds, made me wonder. Can the Heralds ever be healed. Did they lose something more than honor when they walked away from the Oath back, perhaps they lost Honor himself, who was keeping them from falling apart. It is curious that Ash mentions losing their swords. Where on earth is Tal's honor blade. AND just had a thought. Remember how during the merging the the realms Tal seemed to recover? Well don't their Honor blades serve as mini-perpendicularities? Wasn't Kaladin using stormlight in a similar way so he could keep going? Perhaps their honor blades served that purpose. 

 

The question is, can they (the heralds) be healed? How would it be done. My assumption here is that their madness is at least in part magically based, and the heralds (not radiants) can be healed or recover with magic too. This thread is meant to discuss how they might be healed. What tactical and strategic significance that would have, how the story might change. I really don't want to get into "they have done enough" etc. not what this thread is about.

[ftl]

I think the causation is backwards. They are mad because they've abandoned their purpose, stepping away from the Intent they were created for.

I think the best way for them to heal is to start fighting Odium again, regain their purpose. Having access to the spiritual realm via Dalinars perpendicularity helps, but it's got to be the combination of Investiture with them re-aligning to their Intent that can make them better again.

[CamilleDesmoulins]

The Heralds have so much going on it’s hard to tell what their problem is. They spent around two millennia alternately fighting and being tortured. That’s enough to give anybody mental issues from PTSD. They have the guilt of betraying one of their comrades.

They’ve also been alive for a very long term and Zahel implies that could lead to deterioration. The humans worship them, which could be affecting their minds. And of course, they were created by Honour and they betrayed their Oaths. 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

3 hours ago, ftl said:

I think the causation is backwards. They are mad because they've abandoned their purpose, stepping away from the Intent they were created for.

I think the best way for them to heal is to start fighting Odium again, regain their purpose. Having access to the spiritual realm via Dalinars perpendicularity helps, but it's got to be the combination of Investiture with them re-aligning to their Intent that can make them better again.

But that doesn’t explain Taln...

[Lemiltock]

39 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But that doesn’t explain Taln...

I think 4000 years of torture explains Taln

[Master Silver]

10 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I think 4000 years of torture explains Taln

I think the point Kingsdaughter was trying to make is that for a moment their was lucidity when the three realms came together. Honor/Tanavast (the shard) may have been able to do something to directly combat their madness. We see the Fused slowly being destroyed and driven mad by constantly dying over and over again. The Fused aren't tortured between Desolations, but you have to think they die a lot more (or maybe not, perhaps the Heralds after being captured die and respawn every day.) One thing to note from Way of Kings is that they were all sane at Aharietiam. So they were no longer being tortured.Their wills were broken, but you would imagine they would get better not worse over the next 4,500 years. Unless laying down their Honor Blades did something to their cognitive shadows or spirit webs

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

I think the point Kingsdaughter was trying to make is that for a moment their was lucidity when the three realms came together. Honor/Tanavast (the shard) may have been able to do something to directly combat their madness. We see the Fused slowly being destroyed and driven mad by constantly dying over and over again. The Fused aren't tortured between Desolations, but you have to think they die a lot more (or maybe not, perhaps the Heralds after being captured die and respawn every day.) One thing to note from Way of Kings is that they were all sane at Aharietiam. So they were no longer being tortured.Their wills were broken, but you would imagine they would get better not worse over the next 4,500 years. Unless laying down their Honor Blades did something to their cognitive shadows or spirit webs

Exactly. There’s something more going on. While I do think there has been a warping of intents, Taln’s madness doesn’t quite fit. It’s not just the trauma, because the joining of realms healed him, albeit briefly. I wonder if Taln has a similar issue to what the Singers had... its definitely different than the other nine.

[Lemiltock]

3 hours ago, Master Silver said:

I think the point Kingsdaughter was trying to make is that for a moment their was lucidity when the three realms came together. Honor/Tanavast (the shard) may have been able to do something to directly combat their madness. We see the Fused slowly being destroyed and driven mad by constantly dying over and over again. The Fused aren't tortured between Desolations, but you have to think they die a lot more (or maybe not, perhaps the Heralds after being captured die and respawn every day.) One thing to note from Way of Kings is that they were all sane at Aharietiam. So they were no longer being tortured.Their wills were broken, but you would imagine they would get better not worse over the next 4,500 years. Unless laying down their Honor Blades did something to their cognitive shadows or spirit webs

 

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Exactly. There’s something more going on. While I do think there has been a warping of intents, Taln’s madness doesn’t quite fit. It’s not just the trauma, because the joining of realms healed him, albeit briefly. I wonder if Taln has a similar issue to what the Singers had... its definitely different than the other nine.

I certainly agree theres something more going on with the heralds, but I think that the reason talns madness is worse is because of the additional torture he received i feel.

 

Here a WoB on the heralds being magically messed up, not just from totrute etc. However i do think Taln is worse because of the aforementioned torture

Quote

celestialwolf157

By the way, Kaladin's comment on Taln and Shalash's mental health makes me wonder: Are the Ten Fools based on the Heralds after they broke the Oathpact? Having 9 immortal, mentally ill people on Roshar for millenia seems like it'd have spawned some stories that could have eventually become stories of the Ten Fools. Taln wouldn't be included in this, but with Vorinism and the number 10, I imagine they'd have created something to oppose his virtues.

Also, I can't remember if this is confirmed or not, but on the topic of the Heralds' mental health, is it at all supernatural? Taln seemed to recover somewhat when Dalinar summoned the perpendicularity at the end of Oathbringer. So, is it just severe PTSD, or something supernatural is involved?

Brandon Sanderson

I've tried to make it clear in talking about the books that I separate what has happened to the Heralds and normal mental health. What they're suffering from is in large part supernatural--and has to do with the way souls (or Cognitive Shadows) work in the cosmere. So you are correct. This doesn't mean that some normal treatments wouldn't help them, but their core problem has a huge supernatural component.

And yes, there IS a relationship between the ten fools and the Heralds, though people on Roshar wouldn't be able to point it out.

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

3DLightweaver

Does this mean that a certain cognitive shadow from the Mistborn series is fated to go insane?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on a lot of factors. But the longer a cognitive shadow exists, the more likely these problems are.

dce42

Would this affect the Returned as well? What about those with a lot (like 8,000) breaths since they are not cognitive shadows.

Brandon Sanderson

Returned are cognitive shadows. In the Cosmere, there is no way to bring someone back to life, other than normal medical resuscitation, without using a cognitive shadow.

Stromeng

What about Dalinar? I thought he has had textbook PTSD, but the screams he continued to hear turned out to be magic.

Brandon Sanderson

Dalinar has a whole host of issues, not easily defined by a single definition. Assume, though, that his mental state is a normal response to, in part, supernatural occurrences.

The different for the Heralds is that they have conditions which could only truly exist in the cosmere, even if some of the manifestations and symptoms are similar to what could happen on Earth.

Stonewalker16

So is that implying that Hoid is a cognitive shadow, or is that just an effect of being really really old? Also does Vasher know about/how to avoid these effects? Probably an RAFO, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Come back to that question in about a month or so.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 8, 2020)

And a couple more on the topic

Quote

CCQ

I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

Brandon Sanderson

All the Heralds are insane.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

CCQ

Okay.

Brandon Sanderson

Nale trusts Ishar too much.

CCQ

Okay, but so did he do it on purpose, or...?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... So "on purpose" is a difficult thing when you're referring to someone with the psychology that Ishar has.

CCQ

Did he know what it was-- that it was a lie?

Brandon Sanderson

*sighs* Alright, I'll RAFO that until I get to him, but the answer is kind of a yes and a no. Okay? So there is part of him that knows and there is part of him that doesn't want to believe it. And yet the things he's been doing lately in Roshar are done because he knows what's coming.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Quote

Maximus (paraphrased)

None of the Heralds mention or address the Almighty in the opening scene of [The Way of Kings]; it's a little strange, considering they are his champions. Have they seen or spoken to the Almighty?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, the Heralds have spoken with the Almighty. They also feel that what has been done to them is partially his fault. They are all broken in some way and aren't really honorable anymore.

Maximus (paraphrased)

Was that how and why the deal with Odium showed up?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

 

[Master Silver]

So is the next chapter the Syl interlude or do we learn about Shinovar? Also, if the mechanic to reverse the madness of the heralds is for them to take up their honor blades, why hasn't Nale been healed yet. Or has he? It seemed like he got somewhat better during Edge Dancer, and his training Szeth also is further evidence of his healing (maybe). But it seems like it needs to be more than just taking up your honor blades, but fulfilling the oath pack. Perhaps all the heralds need to return to the correct intent for the madness to be cured. Wasn't there a death rattle saying, "why must I carry the madness of all ten" Does vast amounts of stormlight combat madness, the way it helped Kaladin combat depression. I  would postulate though, that, humans that are not cognitive shadows, do lasting harm when they form a stormlight dependency. Whereas cognitive shadows are doing what they were designed to do. Holding lots of investiture, like our favorite thief from Mistborn. 

[Lemiltock]

5 hours ago, Master Silver said:

So is the next chapter the Syl interlude or do we learn about Shinovar?

Next chapter looks to be Navani from the anitations and will be the last chapter of part 1

Quote

Also, if the mechanic to reverse the madness of the heralds is for them to take up their honor blades, why hasn't Nale been healed yet. Or has he? It seemed like he got somewhat better during Edge Dancer, and his training Szeth also is further evidence of his healing (maybe). But it seems like it needs to be more than just taking up your honor blades, but fulfilling the oath pack. Perhaps all the heralds need to return to the correct intent for the madness to be cured. Wasn't there a death rattle saying, "why must I carry the madness of all ten" Does vast amounts of stormlight combat madness, the way it helped Kaladin combat depression. I  would postulate though, that, humans that are not cognitive shadows, do lasting harm when they form a stormlight dependency. Whereas cognitive shadows are doing what they were designed to do. Holding lots of investiture, like our favorite thief from Mistborn. 

I think abandoning the Oathpact is a bigger seperation than holding onto their swords, abanding them was the symbolic abandoning not the actual. 

I also dont think the madness is all due to breaking their intent, i suspect part of it has to do with torture and another part with living longer than a mind should.

ill quote the specific section from the WoB i posted above.

Quote

mastapsi

Is the Heralds' madness related to and/or the same thing as the Fused's madness? The Stormfather mentions that each time one of the Fused is reborn, their mind is further damaged. Is it the same with the Herald? To many rebirths, possibly compounded by the fact that they not only often died each Desolation, but were tortured until the next one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, these two things are related. (There are some hints in Rhythm of War at how Hoid has avoided a similar fate.)

Note that the torture--and the many rebirths--are a big part of this. But their age is also a factor.

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Lemiltock
Extended quote to include question for clarity

[+Child of Hodor]

19 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Next chapter looks to be Navani from the anitations and will be the last chapter of part 1

I think abandoning the Oathpact is a bigger seperation than holding onto their swords, abanding them was the symbolic abandoning not the actual. 

I also dont think the madness is all due to breaking their intent, i suspect part of it has to do with torture and another part with living longer than a mind should.

ill quote the specific section from the WoB i posted above.

 

We do have a recent WoB that their madness is magical. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/431/#e14004

I agree it's part the torture, part living so long. The other thing is they are cognitive shadows that are impacted more directly by thoughts and they've lived so long with the guilt of what they've done.  They don't think well of themselves and that is causing them to behave directly counter to their divine attributes. It can't be just other people thinking ill of them that's changing them, because the Heralds are revered and or worshipped all over Roshar. It's the Heralds opinion of themselves that is warping them along with all the other things mentioned. 

[Mason Wheeler]

On 10/28/2020 at 2:32 PM, Lemiltock said:

Brandon Sanderson

Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever.

Shallash recently told our protagonists that she has no useful information she can give them...

It's worth noting that "don't trust X" doesn't mean the same thing as "X is a lie."  It means that you can't be confident that it is either true or false.  Even so, this is interesting...

[Raphaborn]

10 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Shallash recently told our protagonists that she has no useful information she can give them...

It's worth noting that "don't trust X" doesn't mean the same thing as "X is a lie."  It means that you can't be confident that it is either true or false.  Even so, this is interesting...

It reminded me of certain magical people from another series of books that Sanderson finished.

[+robardin he/him]

On 10/28/2020 at 1:56 AM, Lemiltock said:

I think 4000 years of torture explains Taln

I kind of like to imagine it went something like this.

 

"So, Eshnak, Inflictor of All Agonies. Your monthly status report, please?"

"Ah, yes. Um. So, my Lord. Ah. The Herald Taln has continued to withstand my... Techniques."

"Still."

"Yes."

"Tell me, Eshnak, what is the number of this status report?"

"..."

"Put down the deck of cards and answer the question. NOW."

"Er, this is report #39821."

"At ten months per year, it's been... Oh... Nearly FOUR THOUSAND YEARS?"

"Yes, my Lord Odium."

"You realize this is the ONLY JOB you have to do here. To break this ONE Herald, so that we may return."

"Yes, my Lord, but he is the one who's never broken! There were folders on all the other nine that --"

"ONE JOB."

"...Yes, my Lord."

"You're not being creative enough. Have you called a staff meeting? Had a whip round for fresh approaches?"

"My Lord? Staff? I am the only one left."

"You are torturing Taln... By yourself?"

"All the other Agonizers have gone insane."

"All eighty of them?"

"Yes, my Lord Odium."

"They spent four thousand years torturing him... And they went insane?"

"They... Couldn't take the way he would just lie there and take it all. It ate at their souls."

"And how are you holding up, then?"

"..."

"You've just been playing solitaire in that torture chamber for the past few hundred years, haven't you?"

"Er... Yes, my Lord."

"Perhaps your failure can be used. Have you given him a deck of cards as well?"

"Um... No, my Lord?"

"Release him. Let him play solitaire as well. But give him.. A DECK OF FIFTY-ONE CARDS!"

Edited November 11, 2020 by robardin

[Mason Wheeler]

@robardin And all this time, we thought Taln was just metaphorically not playing with a full deck...

[Isilel]

I had a theory that Zahel would heal Taln using up his one miracle, but one of the reddit  WoBs in the preview chapters discussions made me think that Sanderson likely intends for Zahel to continue being yet  another of the long-lived/immortal dudes knocking around the cosmere. No, I am not hunting it down.  In any case, IMHO Azure would have to be present for it, to explain the event to the SA-only readers and add to the emotional pay-off, and there is a WoB along the lines of "we will see one of the  Nalthians and another will be mentioned" in RoW, so she is MIA for this one.