theory How The Oathpact Lock Works

[+Child of Hodor]

TL;DR: Leshwi states the other Heralds shifted the Oathpact "lock" to depend only on Taln. What did they change? Process of elimination suggests it involves surgebinding. No one could surgebind on Roshar before the Oathpact. These powers were of only the Heralds. Per Stormfather they were the Heralds. The Nahel bond was inspired by it, Singers were forbidden to use them by H&C and the Fused could not use them at first. To the Oathpact lock "Surgebinding = Heralds". It locks when all the powers are present. The Heralds changed the Oathpact to associate all surgebinding with Taln instead of spread out amongst the 10 Heralds. It's somehow detecting all the powers are present and accounted for on Braize despite only Taln being there. If REALLY powerful surgebinding is done on Roshar the Oathpact locking mechanism on Braize might detect that and interpret it as a Herald being on Roshar. It would then "unlock" so the Herald can come in. 

 

Support

Quote

“We were only locked on Braize once the Heralds died and joined us there. Until then, there would often be years or even decades of rebirths during a Return—during which time the Heralds would train humans to fight. Once they were confident that humans could continue to stand, the Heralds would give themselves to Braize to activate the Isolation. The Heralds would need to die for this to work.”

“But… they didn’t die the last time?” Venli said. “They remained, but you were still locked away.”

“Yes…” Leshwi said. “They somehow found some way to shift the Oathpact to depend on a single member.”  (RoW Ch. 14)

Assuming Leshwi is correct and the Heralds did something to "shift" the Oathpact to rely on Taln, what could it have been? 

Quote

"I was chosen to wait for you. We weren't certain if you had survived. A ... a decision has been reached. It is time for the Oathpact to end." - Prelude to The Stormlight Archive

Whatever they did, it was done without Kalak being there and it wouldn't have mattered if he was back on Braize or not. They knew Taln was dead and did what they did to make Taln specifically enough to engage the lock because he had never broken. The only thing Jezrien tells Kalak to do is leave his Honorblade and that none of them are to seek each other out. The Heralds violate both these instructions and it does not seem to matter. We see a bunch of them in Kholinar in the prologue. Both Nale and Ash mention talking to Ishar and how super duper sane he is. Nale took his Honorblade back.

As we know the Heralds are all insane and completely unreliable. Still, at least Nale has some twisted internally consistent logic in what he does. Nale who is the most active Herald that's been on the page. He has that dumb "The Fused are the true rulers of the land, so I have to follow them" which seems to me is truly an excuse to switch sides in order to get out of being tortured again. But, he really does have this internal logic that involves his ideals as Knight Radiant. Let's pretend for a moment he is operating under twisted, consistent internal logic for other things. 

Why Leave The Blades; Why Is Nale OK W/ His

It's not clear when Nale took his blade back. I get the impression it was relatively recently, Taravangian tries to convince Szeth that another of the Honorblades went missing and that's why Kaladin could surgebind. So, the Shin had Nale's Honorblade recently enough for Szeth and Taravangian to know they once had it and they don't anymore. That doesn't mean it happened in their lifetimes, but it happened within modern memory. Like the last 1,000 years or so. The "Shadowdays" a period during which is lost to current historians, started after the Last Desolation and before the radiants fell. I wouldn't think Szeth and Taravangian would know about the Shin once having Nale's blade if he took it back 3,000 years ago.

Regardless, Nale has his blade when he is on his proto-surgebinder killing spree. Nale says this is to prevent a new Desolation. He must think a Herald holding their Honorblade in modern day won't trigger Desolation. He tells Szeth:

Quote

"Ishar warned me of the danger. Now that Honor is dead, other Radiants might upset the balance of the Oathpact. Might undermine certain ... measures we took" - OB Ch. 106

The Heralds once thought they all nine needed to leave their blades for what they did to work. Nale takes his back and uses it in modern day to try to prevent a desolation. What changed? Honor died. The Heralds could not surgebind without their blades. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/161/#e6898 

When Honor was alive the blades drew investiture directly from Honor, they didn't need to rely on Stormlight in gems. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1572  With Honor dead they can't draw from him. Someone holding the blade is not capable of the using the same amount of raw power while surgebinding. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/353/#e10331 

What's Wrong With Surgebinding?

The surges did destroy most of Ashyn's surface. Honor raved about how the radiants would do it to Roshar while he was dying. Ishar forced organization and ideals upon the Knights Radiant during the Desolations because he was worried about them gaining access to too much power. This was long before they shifted the Oathpact. The surges are dangerous in general at high levels but what does that have to do with the Oathpact? 

Surgebinding as we know it did not happen on Roshar until The Oathpact. The Nahel bond that most surgebinders now get their power from was directly inspired by the Oathpact. The Fused could not surgebind early on and were still a huge problem that led to The Oathpact being formed (OB CH. 38). Singers were forbidden from using surgebinding by Honor and Cultivation according to the Eila Stele excerpt in the OB ch. 115 epigraph. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Oathbringer/Epigraphs#Eila_Stele_and_The_Way_of_Kings_Postscript

The humans on Ashyn used the surges to ruin the planet and some used them to escape Ashyn for Roshar. However they used surges on Ashyn was likely different from how they are accessed on Roshar since there are two Shards on the planet and that would effect how the magic system is accessed. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/117/#e1640

Fabrials were not developed until after surgebinding began to happen on Roshar. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13333 Post-Ashyn pre-Oathpact Roshar humans had no way to use the surges. The Oathpact gave the Heralds access to surgebinding through the Honorblades. The surgebinding on Roshar was theirs, it was of them. The Stormfather says it was them.

Quote

He was Jezrien, a man whose powers bore no name. They were simply him. The Windrunners were named after Ishar founded the orders - OB Ch. 64

The Lock

No one on Roshar could use these powers that became known as surgebinding before the Oathpact.  Stormfather states the Fused could not use the surges early on, but "men could not fight them" (OB Ch. 38). This directly motivated the creation of the Oathpact and its lock which was meant to lock both Heralds and Fused away off-world forever. 

Why does it even have an unlock state? Because the Fused were still on Roshar when the Oathpact was created. The Heralds had to kill them all in a timely enough manner to get them all trapped on Braize at once, then and only then should it engage the lock. At the time of the creation of the Oathpact Heralds and surgebinding were indistinguishable in Honor and the Heralds minds. This is built into the lock. One of many things they did not foresee is surgebinding developing on its own. 

Ishar saw it as a problem immediately and forced the KR to be organized and swear ideals. This capped their power. The KR of old could not be mistaken for a Herald. In modern day Nale and Ishar see proto-surgebinders as a danger. The KR don't exist outside of Skybreakers, which Nale keeps an eye on, so they think the proto-surgebinders might find a way to attain uncapped levels of surgebinding power and confuse the Oathpact lock.  

Lastly, Honor really does not like surges and surgebinding. He and Cultivation forbid the Singers from accessing it. He ranted at the KR about it towards the end. He only gave 10 people Honorblades, presumably he could have made more. Why did he make any? He was desperate and he thought they'd be out of his life forever once the lock engaged. "Make sure this CREM (no offense Cultivation dear) is off my planet before you lock up!" is a sentiment that went into designing the lock. 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Rainier]

So, the Oathpact was intended to give humans the powers of surges, such that they could fight off the Fused, who did not have surges but did have reincarnation? Am I understanding that correctly?

Here's the timeline I'm working with.

1. Humans on Ashyn, singers on Roshar.
2. Humans with surges on Ashyn destroy the planet, somehow
3. Humans from Ashyn are resettled onto Roshar, in Shinovar. 
4. Humans invade rest of Roshar, conquer it
5. Honor does little about this
6. Singers despair, turn from Honor to Odium, as Honor won't help them
7. Odium creates the Fused, immortal spren-singers who are reborn into bodies of other singers
8. Humans get their ass kicked by Fused
9. Humans make Oathpact with Honor (and Odium?)
10. Honor creates Honorblades, gives them to humans (Heralds)
11. This is the first surgebinding on Roshar
12. Oathpact allows humans to use surges, but comes with this Braize/lock/reincarnation cycle similar to Fused
13. Spren mimic Honorblades, become mini-shards of their own
14. Ishar binds the spren and Radiants to oaths, limiting their power
15. Heralds do something that allows one Herald to act as ten, nine abandon Oathpact

I think this is more or less the events that I'm imagining, but I'm still having trouble keeping the timeline straight, and understanding who did what, when, and why. There are a few things I hadn't picked up on yet, mainly the fact that surgebinding was only gradually introduced to Roshar, and it came in bits and pieces, not all at once.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

So, the Oathpact was intended to give humans the powers of surges, such that they could fight off the Fused, who did not have surges but did have reincarnation? Am I understanding that correctly?

Here's the timeline I'm working with.

1. Humans on Ashyn, singers on Roshar.
2. Humans with surges on Ashyn destroy the planet, somehow
3. Humans from Ashyn are resettled onto Roshar, in Shinovar. 
4. Humans invade rest of Roshar, conquer it
5. Honor does little about this
6. Singers despair, turn from Honor to Odium, as Honor won't help them
7. Odium creates the Fused, immortal spren-singers who are reborn into bodies of other singers
8. Humans get their ass kicked by Fused
9. Humans make Oathpact with Honor (and Odium?)
10. Honor creates Honorblades, gives them to humans (Heralds)
11. This is the first surgebinding on Roshar
12. Oathpact allows humans to use surges, but comes with this Braize/lock/reincarnation cycle similar to Fused
13. Spren mimic Honorblades, become mini-shards of their own
14. Ishar binds the spren and Radiants to oaths, limiting their power
15. Heralds do something that allows one Herald to act as ten, nine abandon Oathpact

I think this is more or less the events that I'm imagining, but I'm still having trouble keeping the timeline straight, and understanding who did what, when, and why. There are a few things I hadn't picked up on yet, mainly the fact that surgebinding was only gradually introduced to Roshar, and it came in bits and pieces, not all at once.

Yeah, that timeline seems accurate. It's crazy, steps for 2 - 11 happen during the natural lifetime of the people who would go on to become Heralds. All except maybe one were alive on Ashyn when the human exodus happened. I'm assuming the surface being wrecked and people escaping to Roshar happened close together. 

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402/#e13442

The Honorblades were given to the Heralds so the Heralds could use surgebinding and kill the Fused who did not yet have it.

Quote

EVEN BEFORE THE FUSED LEARNED TO COMMAND THE SURGES, MEN COULD NOT FIGHT THEM - OB CH. 38

This WoB states that no previous example existed to base the Honorblades on, but the person who made them (Honor) was aware of certain things (Surges & that they were used by humans on Ashyn). https://wob.coppermind.net/events/373/#e12036

The Fused are cognitive shadows that can take new body, from another Singer ejecting the body's original soul (or whatever it is). The Heralds are also cognitive shadows, but they regrow or "rebirth" their own body. It's a power they have even when they don't have the Honorblades. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/353/#e10331

I think the reason for the difference is the Fused were Singers killed by humans who Odium then turned into cognitive shadows. The Heralds were alive in their original bodies when they were transformed, the Fused were not causing them to need to get new ones. 

I once made a joke about them being called the Fused because they refused to stay dead, but the Stormfather basically says that here:

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THERE WERE SOULS OF CREATURES WHO HAD BEEN SLAIN, ANGRY AND TERRIBLE. THEY HAD BEEN GIVEN GREAT POWER BY THE ENEMY ... FOR WHEN THEY DIED THEY REFUSED TO PASS ON. OB CH. 38

Ooof

Edited October 22, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/22/2020 at 11:52 AM, Child of Hodor said:

With Honor dead they can't draw from him. Someone holding the blade is not capable of the using the same amount of raw power while surgebinding. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/353/#e10331 

I mean, that's not what that WoB says at all.

Quote

WindRunner88 (paraphrased)

So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding  order?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

BookCon 2018 (June 1, 2018)

Nowhere does it say that that power can't be used now. 

[Lemiltock]

17 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, that's not what that WoB says at all.

Nowhere does it say that that power can't be used now. 

Given Honor is now splintered and its likely their levels of raw power csme via a direct link circa a certain mistborn spoiler. It seems probable that the heralds now no longer have that level of power. While this isnt conclusive it is where the evidence points.

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Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

Spoiler

Elend with the power from preservation or Marsh with the power from ruin

This WoB also indicates (its paraphrased so grain of salt) that the heralds have no innate power, indicating they access investiture the same as anyone else could.

Quote

Seonid (paraphrased)

I asked him to tell me about one of the Herald's innate powers.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have none.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Lemiltock
Additiomal WOB

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Given Honor is now splintered and its likely their levels of raw power csme via a direct link circa a certain mistborn spoiler. It seems probable that the heralds now no longer have that level of power. While this isnt conclusive it is where the evidence points.

I mean, he says it is "a little" like that, which is pretty vague. There's also this line from the Stormfather (OB 16):

Quote

It is a weapon beyond parallel. The gift of a god. With it, you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not understand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly.

Unless an Honorblade makes you a Cognitive Shadow (which feels extremely unlikely to me), this most likely (in my opinion) refers to the direct Stormlight conduit. 

[Lemiltock]

42 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, he says it is "a little" like that, which is pretty vague. There's also this line from the Stormfather (OB 16):

Unless an Honorblade makes you a Cognitive Shadow (which feels extremely unlikely to me), this most likely (in my opinion) refers to the direct Stormlight conduit. 

What other in universe comparison do we have of a shard powering an individual, he likely gave less power but unless another example can be shown, its better to assume it matches the already established mechanics  especially with no contradictory evidence.

 

This WoB indicates the most dangerous thing about an honor blade is the lack of oaths. And from the WoB in my previous reply the honorblades are pieces of honor (as are the spren to a lesser extent given cultivation), so its stands that they procide connection to honors power even if it is splintered. The stormfather may also not understand that now that Honor is shattered the Honorblades may act differently. 

 

I certainly agree that honorblades where the conduit and key to honors power for the heralds, ie the specific blade keyed the power and the blades connection to honor provided the power, however, since honor is now splintered i dont think the power part functions as well (there is possibly some ability to draw stormlight from shattered honor if you know how but given honors shattered this will almost certainly be diminished)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

What other in universe comparison do we have of a shard powering an individual, he likely gave less power but unless another example can be shown, its better to assume it matches the already established mechanics  especially with no contradictory evidence.

It's probably similar, but there's probably some important differences (for example, I doubt Honor had to constantly follow the Heralds around, because that sounds like an easy way to get distracted and become vulnerable).

15 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

however, since honor is now splintered i dont think the power part functions as well (there is possibly some ability to draw stormlight from shattered honor if you know how but given honors shattered this will almost certainly be diminished)

Why would it be diminished? To quote Brandon (first part may be about R&P, not Honor, not sure because he kind of swapped midway through the full WoB),

Quote

They-- if their exist-- like, the things on the Spiritual Realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other and things like this. All those <piece> spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Like, yes those are little Splinters of Honor, but they are still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world, right? There is no diminishing that.

Also, other things Honor did or presumably did (Oathpact, binding Odium, the storm providing Stormlight) seem to work just fine as they are. 

18 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

The stormfather may also not understand that now that Honor is shattered the Honorblades may act differently. 

Why even have that line if the answer is just "SF is wrong, there's nothing special useful", then?

[Lemiltock]

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

It's probably similar, but there's probably some important differences (for example, I doubt Honor had to constantly follow the Heralds around, because that sounds like an easy way to get distracted and become vulnerable).

They hold a literal piece of honor, thats why when they dont have the honor blades they dont have the surgebinding. This stops Honor from having to follow them around.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

Why would it be diminished? To quote Brandon (first part may be about R&P, not Honor, not sure because he kind of swapped midway through the full WoB),

Because Honor is splintered, in pieces, less than whole.

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

Also, other things Honor did or presumably did (Oathpact, binding Odium, the storm providing Stormlight) seem to work just fine as they are. 

Given we dont really have examples its hard to say it works as well, but they are functional. The Honorblades are still functional, im sure they still offer connection to Honor as well but as Honor is splintered that connection doesnt equal free stormlight/investiture or at least not to thr same magnitude. After all why shatter Honor if it achieves nothing?

19 minutes ago, beewall said:

Why even have that line if the answer is just "SF is wrong, there's nothing special useful", then?

Because it builds suspense, theres always another secret. The Honorblades providing connection to Honor is significant, particularly as connection gets explored further. It doesnt necissarialry make them more powerful in the blow more stuff up way. And the Stormfather has been wrong before, hes a grumpy old man that likes to scare people away with vastness him saying theres more that you dont know is very Stormfather.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Lemiltock said:

They hold a literal piece of honor, thats why when they dont have the honor blades they dont have the surgebinding. This stops Honor from having to follow them around.

I mean, that's my point. There's some potentially big differences.

2 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

After all why shatter Honor if it achieves nothing?

To attempt to prevent someone from Ascending to the full Shard. (Which seems to possibly be failing, considering what Dalinar seems to be up to.) Just because it doesn't break Honorblades doesn't mean it does nothing. 

3 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

And the Stormfather has been wrong before, hes a grumpy old man that likes to scare people away with vastness him saying theres more that you dont know is very Stormfather.

.....okay yeah fair enough on that point. 

[Lemiltock]

21 minutes ago, beewall said:

I mean, that's my point. There's some potentially big differences.

I dont see how this is different, its the same functionallity as a spren, if Syl gets to far from Kaladin she thinks like a rock and he flys like one. Whats changed is not how the Honorblades function its that like a shardblade connects to a dead eyes, they connect to something broken, albiet broken differently.

21 minutes ago, beewall said:

To attempt to prevent someone from Ascending to the full Shard. (Which seems to possibly be failing, considering what Dalinar seems to be up to.) Just because it doesn't break Honorblades doesn't mean it does nothing. 

Thats what im saying splintering Honor has effects on Honors abilities, given that the Honorblades are to Honor what sprenblades are to spren and shardblades are to deadeyes, then the Honorblades still function they just join to a splintered power now hence theyre not as powerful as when Honor was not splintered.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

9 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

like a shardblade connects to a dead eyes, they connect to something broken, albiet broken differently.

Eh, there's some really big differences there. Most obvious one being that Honorblades still provide Surges just fine. Splintering also is most likely very different from deadeyeing, so I'm not sure how comparable I think the situations are.

10 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Thats what im saying splintering Honor has effects on Honors abilities

I mean, what I'm saying is I don't know that I agree lol (beyond the general "makes it harder to Ascend to the full power"). Maybe some things would be affected, but personally, I don't think very much will.

[Lemiltock]

4 hours ago, beewall said:

Eh, there's some really big differences there. Most obvious one being that Honorblades still provide Surges just fine. Splintering also is most likely very different from deadeyeing, so I'm not sure how comparable I think the situations are.

Yes they still do, but thats caused by the oaths not by the blades. To get surges you bond with a spren, a deadeyes/shardblade is not bonded in the same way which is why they dont provide surges. Honorn being splintered is different to a Deadeyes it was more a comparison of less is provided because something is broken. But i think the distinction here is that you dont think splinter does anything beyond the removal of a vessel where as I think it will reduce the capacity to draw directly from the shard as there is no vessel to allow it and the power is splintered (seperated, diffused, broken up etc). Why i think splintering doesnt affect the system as a whole is because the power is still in the system, its just broken up, but we dont have any references yet in book so I may be wrong.

4 hours ago, beewall said:

I mean, what I'm saying is I don't know that I agree lol (beyond the general "makes it harder to Ascend to the full power"). Maybe some things would be affected, but personally, I don't think very much will.

I guess well just have to disagree, i dont think theres any WoB on in book references either way.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I guess well just have to disagree, i dont think theres any WoB on in book references either way.

Fair enough lol

[Could Be Fire]

On 10/22/2020 at 9:52 AM, Child of Hodor said:

Whatever they did, it was done without Kalak being there and it wouldn't have mattered if he was back on Braize or not. They knew Taln was dead and did what they did to make Taln specifically enough to engage the lock because he had never broken.

Do we know for certain that the Heralds actively chose to shift the pact to Taln alone? I read it as them figuring out another loophole (like the torture loophole) that allows a herald to drop out.

Quote

“We chose this burden willingly. Well, we can choose to drop it if we wish.” (WoK Prologue) from Jezrien to Kalak 

They know for certain Taln is dead, so if the rest of them voluntarily remove their status as heralds (how that happens is a question) then by default Taln holds the line. Honestly, the loophole may have just been realizing that not all ten are necessary, that one person on Braize is enough. I will admit this doesn't explain why they were fine with Kalak possibly being dead, but even if they did somehow shift the lock directly to Taln alone, what was the plan if Kalak was dead? Jezrein was a bit coy about what was going on, if Kalak hadn't admitted he was broken would they have had him go to Braize as well?

On 10/22/2020 at 9:52 AM, Child of Hodor said:

With Honor dead they can't draw from him. Someone holding the blade is not capable of the using the same amount of raw power while surgebinding.

On another note, I'm not sure I buy the lock is keyed to powerful surge binding, but I do think you're on to something about the herald's reaction to honor's death. I don't think Jezrien's orders are for magical oath reasons, I think they're literally just trying to hide from Honor. Abandoning their blades and not congregating would presumably help them escape his notice. I can't imagine Honor was pleased about the heralds voluntarily abandoning the oathpact.  

Then, after Honor is shattered Nale takes back his blade and the rest feel comfortable interacting with each other (Nale, Kalak, Ishar, and Ash are clearly in contact) and being more obvious about their presence. 

[ScavellTane]

Also the Cognitive Storm that blockades Braize. Whats with that.