RoW Chapter 15 Discussion

[Eternal Khol he/him]

20 hours ago, Honorless said:

Why is he calling himself a Type 2, that's Lifeless, is it just figurative? Or does he mean Type 2 in a different way?

He said he had to throw out that whole system, which was what was used in Warbreaker.He made a new system(what we just saw) once he discovered more about the nature of the Cosmere and made a new system that im thinking is more Cosmere wide and can apply to many a invested being

Edited October 14, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[+robardin he/him]

10 hours ago, Rainier said:

“You love it because it’s part of you. It’s your mistress, your passion, your lifeblood. You’d find the daily training unsatisfying. You’d thirst for something more. You’d eventually turn and leave, and that would put you in a worse position than if you’d never started.”

Vasher is talking about himself, here, and speaking from experience. He's retired before, but found it unsatisfying and eventually left. This put him in a worse position than if he'd never tried in the first place. This time it has stuck for a while, and he's got a cushy spot.

Maybe he's about to be drawn back in, but that is what remains to be seen. If it does happen, I don't expect it until the back 5, which should be after Nightblood, sequel to Warbreaker, is published.

Well, Zahel was saying that as long as that description fit Kaladin, he would not really be fit - by motivation, not by skill - to be a swordmaster ardent. "Return when you hate the fight,” Zahel said. “Truly hate it.” 

Return (no pun intended, I presume)... To be an ardent... Like he is. Which equivalence would mean that Zahel "truly hates the fight".

For now. This time. ("Because I learned that conflict would find men no matter how hard I tried. I no longer wanted a part in trying to stop them.") But has not in the past.

And then not long after, he muses about how "Type Two Invested Entities" like himself are "chained to their Intent" the longer they exist.

And what Intent were you given, O Warbreaker the Peaceful who has lived a dozen human lifetimes or more? (Or was that Wartlover the Ugly?)

Edited October 14, 2020 by robardin

[Experience he/him]

Do we know how Zahel lost Nightblood?

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, The Traveller said:

What about a third option that which you use when you know who the enemy spy is

- misdirection / misinformation 

Prohibitively risky for the same reason. You have to fear that he will take his realms out of the coalition as soon as he suspects being found out.

[+robardin he/him]

4 minutes ago, Experience said:

Do we know how Zahel lost Nightblood?

If you read it like I read it, he referred that event obliquely as a "mistake", yet "the best one he ever made". So it wasn't stolen, but a decision to let it go.

(When Kaladin asks about why Zahel "gave up the sword", I like to think he mentally replied to the very related question, why Vasher gave up THE SWORD.)

[+Child of Hodor]

12 minutes ago, robardin said:

If you read it like I read it, he referred that event obliquely as a "mistake", yet "the best one he ever made". So it wasn't stolen, but a decision to let it go.

(When Kaladin asks about why Zahel "gave up the sword", I like to think he mentally replied to the very related question, why Vasher gave up THE SWORD.)

Since the Nightwatcher specifically offers Dalinar a sword that "bleeds darkness and cannot defeated" in OB the simplest explanation is Vasher went to The Valley to ask to be able to consume Stormlight in place of a Breath to keep himself alive and his bane ended up being he had to leave Nighblood behind. 

He dies if he doesn't have a Breath to consume every week other than his Divine Breath and Stormlight is a lot easier to get than Breath, he doesn't have to convince anyone to give it to him it just shows up with every high storm. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6177

[+robardin he/him]

1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

Since the Nightwatcher specifically offers Dalinar a sword that "bleeds darkness and cannot defeated" in OB the simplest explanation is Vasher went to The Valley to ask to be able to consume Stormlight in place of a Breath to keep himself alive and his bane ended up being he had to leave Nighblood behind. 

He dies if he doesn't have a Breath to consume every week other than his Divine Breath and Stormlight is a lot easier to get than Breath, he doesn't have to convince anyone to give it to him it just shows up with every high storm. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6177

I believe Nightwatcher's "bane" is supposed to change something about the person receiving the "boon", as it's Cultivation at work but in two opposite directions, not an exchange of goods for services. (Even if the "boon" is something tangible, like those "bolts of good cloth" someone got, in exchange for... Seeing the world upside-down for the rest of his life, IIRC?)

Though it's still plausible that visiting the NW is how he's able to use Stormlight to feed his need for Investiture, it's not the only way, and whatever his "curse" would be, should be something about him. (WOB has said he's definitely missing some memories, so maybe it was like what happened with Dalinar, though it's also implied he could mess with his own memories with the Commands he told Denth that he knew to do that. And in fact, had gotten a traumatized child to do on herself.)

[+robardin he/him]

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That would most likely lose him the war. It would be among the gravest errors he could make. Taravangian needs to die.
He has heirs. In fact he has grandchildren. They are not going to and cannot, if they want to be taken seriously, stay in an alliance with somebody who imprisoned their king. That would destroy the coalition.

You have two options

• You make it look like an accident or old age
• You make it look like poison and arrest Adrotagia, role up the Diagramm and blame it on them

What does Team Dalinar think they know about Taravangian, anyway? I also don't think they know about the Diagram, or his cycle of cold intelligence and empathy.

After the battle at Thaylen Fields, he tells Dalinar straight up that he abandoned him because he assumed he'd fall and wanted to put himself in position to seize control of the coalition. This shocks Dalinar into realizing he had not become king of Jah Keved by accident, either. Taravangian then further says, while excusing himself from Gavilar's death at Szeth's hands, that he subsequently sought out the Assassin in White and managed to get him to do all those other assassinations of world leaders. (Which Szeth should have further explained by now as being Oathstone related.)

Eight days later, a "dumber" version of Taravangian is thinking back on how he'd given "some truth" to Dalinar as a "calculated risk" to remain in the coalition, even if Dalinar might never trust him again.

So Dalinar probably knows or believes:

• Taravangian's "slow of thought" reputation was a complete front
• Taravangian has been scheming to take over the world with politics and assassination...
• For which his motive was to unite and to save humanity from destruction by the Voidbringers after an ardent at the Palanaeum, "Dova", who was probably Battah'Elin, told them the Desolation was coming
• He has lost his assassin (in Szeth), so his most dangerous tool is now gone, and his political scheming is limited by his confessions

Because he still thinks Taravangian's ultimate goals align with his, and because Taravangian controls Kharbranth and Jah Keved (two of the human nations that still stand - where Alethkar itself does not), he is still including him in the coalition to fight the Voidbringers.

They don't know he was responsible (by commanding Malata) for the attack on Urithiru through the supposedly closed Kholinar Oathgate that resulted in the loss of Jezrien's Honorblade that Vyre is now flitting about with.

As we see from the Conference of the Fused, he's been passing on information about the "guard patterns" at Urithiru, but not really important stuff like Navani's advances in fabrial design. Assuming he's not holding back, he's being excluded from such things even though until his earlier treachery had been revealed, Jah Keved had been at the forefront of fabrial technology (what with the "half-shards" and all), and Taravangian himself gave the tip to Dalinar as to how one captures a spren in a fabrial gemstone that insipired him to trap Nergoul in the King's Drop ruby.

Edited October 14, 2020 by robardin

[joesleepsalot he/him]

I think Kaladin is going to die but return as a cognitive shadow/herald/zahel equivalent... that seems to me to be what this chapter overwhelmingly foreshadowed. He is literally on everyone’s radar—— the nine, the fused, the pursuer, all friendlies—— the clear choice for honor’s champion. I think his 4th ideal ascension will have something to do with everyone hunting him down and systematically killing his less-capable friends that are now in charge of Bridge 4. 

[Eternal Khol he/him]

On 10/13/2020 at 5:47 AM, Bliev said:

I do think the nugget about Nalthis being younger than Roshar is interesting.

The Stormlight Archive is about 10000 years after the Shattering 

and if it “might” have a few fossils, Doesn’t that imply that Roshar was made not long before the Shattering, relatively speaking.

Adonalsium specifically grew Roshar, presumably for some purpose, which i dont think was intended to be fulfilled before the Shattering. 

it just gets more interesting every week

Edited October 14, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[snoopy]

23 hours ago, Karger said:

OMG.  Zahel! is not speaking.  Kaladin should hear him mumbling in a alien language.  Either Brandon forgot this or Zahel! is 10th heightening!

On Reddit, Brandon confirmed Zahel is not of the 10th heightening and that he was whispering commands:
 

Quote

asmodeus_9

42 points·13 hours ago

Just as a point of clarification, was Vasher physically articulating his Commands in this chapter, or is he capable of bypassing that need, for whatever reason? (skill, heightening, etc.)

ngl, this was a lot of fun to read!

 

mistborn

Author

98 points·13 hours ago

You can assume he whispered each command as he gave them.

 

Jacky_Ragnarovna

35 points·12 hours ago

I knew he couldn’t be at 10. The kerchiefs would be white if he was. I’ve wanted this scene so badly and it was better than I imagined.

 

[+Bliev she/her]

25 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

The Stormlight Archive is about 1000 years after the Shattering 

and if it “might” have a few fossils, Doesn’t that imply that Roshar was made not long before the Shattering, relatively speaking.

Adonalsium specifically grew Roshar, presumably for some purpose, which i dont think was intended to be fulfilled before the Shattering. 

it just gets more interesting every week

About *10,000 years after the shattering. 

Yes, I'd say that seems like a *very* interesting nugget!! It really makes me wonder for what purpose Adonalsium created the worlds they created...very interesting. 

[Karger he/him]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That will be difficult. Equal is an ambiguous word here. Cryptics and Honorspren for example are inherently unequal in a certain sense. It is blatantly obvious that their minds work differently.

Like and equal are not the same.  Equal treatment/opportunity is not the same as being the same.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Their goal is survival. And it does not matter if the alliance fractures after victory.

First of all it absolutely matters.  Second of all for an alliance to work the different groups will have to take risks.  Many Honorspren will have to leave lasting integrity weakening that city's deference.  In the short term that is bad for the survival of honorspren but it still increases the odds of total survival for everyone.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You are asking them to meld their soul on command

No I am not.  I am pointing out that they will have to learn to trust.

[Karger he/him]

36 minutes ago, snoopy said:

On Reddit, Brandon confirmed Zahel is not of the 10th heightening and that he was whispering commands:

Yes I saw.

[Nef]

Kaladin not speaking to Teft was a noticeable omission to me and I assume its because there will be separate conversation between Teft and Kaladin in a later chapter that covers Kaladin's change in role. Given Sigzil and Skar received promotions to cover Kaladin's duties, I'm guessing that Teft will be asked to do the same.

[+robardin he/him]

14 minutes ago, Nef said:

Kaladin not speaking to Teft was a noticeable omission to me and I assume its because there will be separate conversation between Teft and Kaladin in a later chapter that covers Kaladin's change in role. Given Sigzil and Skar received promotions to cover Kaladin's duties, I'm guessing that Teft will be asked to do the same.

Yeah I noticed that as well. I'd have thought that Teft would be the natural "heir" to Kaladin as Chief Windrunner, as he's been Kaladin's second since the early days of running bridges.

At first I thought maybe Skar's promotion was specifically for Bridge Four, but no, it was for the "Windrunners" as a whole.

Of course, Sigzil was delegated the role of head administrator for the Windrunners for "supplies and recruitment" and Skar for "active missions", perhaps Teft is over both of them in terms of overall strategy (i.e., the Kaladin role that goes to Dalinar and co. meetings)? That's what Dalinar had wanted Kaladin to rotate into, a general who commanded from off the field instead of in it, but Kaladin demurred as being unable to see the Windrunners fly into combat without joining them.

Which would mean Kaladin is truly "out" of the Windrunners as an organization.

[I Am A Fish he/him]

Could this possible a signal that Teft's firemoss addiction has been on a downwards spiral?

[+robardin he/him]

9 minutes ago, I Am A Fish said:

Could this possible a signal that Teft's firemoss addiction has been on a downwards spiral?

Nah, we've seen Teft twice already in RoW - he was in the fight with the Fused in Chapter 5 (when the Heavenly Ones did the recon of the flying barge), and then again in Chapter 9 when he told Kaladin he needed to go congratulate the latest Windrunner to swear the Third Ideal and to discuss the fact that Moash was still around. (And to delicately refer to the fact that Renarin found Kaladin "frozen" again.)

I guess this could be one of Teft's "good days" if the bad ones have gotten worse or more numerous, but as far as we know, he's still on normal active duty in important missions, and acting in a "sergeant type role" with respect to Kaladin on a relatively everyday basis.

Edited October 14, 2020 by robardin

[+Bliev she/her]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

I guess this could be one of Teft's "good days" if the bad ones have gotten worse or more numerous, but as far as we know, he's still on normal active duty in important missions, and acting in a "sergeant type role" with respect to Kaladin on a relatively everyday basis.

Yes, I imagine Teft has a separate role like Skar and Sigzil do. Teft was the first to come and gently kicking Kal to go congratulate the newest Windrunner, and he seemed like he was pretty high up there in terms of chain of command. I'm sure he has his bad days still, they all do, so the only thing I can think of that might be different is that he's opted out of leadership because he doesn't think he's ready for it. 

[Rainier]

The most obvious explanation is that Teft's stature never recovered from his part in the theft of the Honorblade (and death of a member). Sure, he used to be more important, but he stormed up badly, so even if he's doing better now, even if he still has a connection with Bridge 4, he's still living with the consequences of previous actions.

[Sparks]

11 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That would most likely lose him the war. It would be among the gravest errors he could make. Taravangian needs to die.
He has heirs. In fact he has grandchildren. They are not going to and cannot, if they want to be taken seriously, stay in an alliance with somebody who imprisoned their king. That would destroy the coalition.

You have two options

• You make it look like an accident or old age
• You make it look like poison and arrest Adrotagia, role up the Diagram and blame it on them 

Taravangian himself would approve (on his more intelligent, ruthless days)!

Jasnah would too, in fact, Jasnah wouldn't even bother with the poison.  She'd smoke him, open some windows, and never tell Dalinar to keep him compartmentalized..

[Sparks]

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

Yes, I imagine Teft has a separate role like Skar and Sigzil do. Teft was the first to come and gently kicking Kal to go congratulate the newest Windrunner, and he seemed like he was pretty high up there in terms of chain of command. I'm sure he has his bad days still, they all do, so the only thing I can think of that might be different is that he's opted out of leadership because he doesn't think he's ready for it. 

Or alternatively, Teft actively may not want leadership and official officer's duties.  In the real-world Army, there are plenty of great soldiers with tons of experience that want nothing more than to be the best Sergeant of all time and to look after his men.  Not everyone dreams of becoming General one day.

[RazeU]

I’ve seen several people in here discussing Zahel’s classifications, such as type ones... I re-read Warbreaker not long ago and if iirc the wording there was “type _ awakened entity”... whereas in this chapter he says “type _ invested entity... my question about this is does the distinction make a direct comparison impractical? At a glance I would posit these are two separate lists and he just used similar language... naming apparitions of two different types of investiture or beings similarly can still be comparing apples and oranges. I guess I’m saying all this because it seems people are trying to fit things from SA into a package from WB and it just doesn’t fit exactly right to me. 

[+Harrycrapper]

13 hours ago, Experience said:

I'm not sure if it's been brought up yet, but do rhythms have anything to do with musicspren and the ryshadium?

It has not been brought up that I could see, and I was wondering the same thing. Yea, there's something going on there and I don't have the faintest clue how the Rhythms, Musicspren, and Ryshadium are related, but it seems that they are. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

42 minutes ago, RazeU said:

I’ve seen several people in here discussing Zahel’s classifications, such as type ones... I re-read Warbreaker not long ago and if iirc the wording there was “type _ awakened entity”... whereas in this chapter he says “type _ invested entity... my question about this is does the distinction make a direct comparison impractical?

No, for Breath is made out of Investiture, so an awakened entity is by necessity also an invested entity. There is a connection and he is not ready to just ignore it.

Zahel, being a scholar, recognised that his system described a special case of a general system and hence abandoned it. Yet being a grumpy old man he kept the names.