LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 (edited) TL;DR All magics that draw from external sources function via bonds with entities made of Investiture (generally Spiritual or Cognitive beings). Magics that do not draw from external sources seem to possibly not do so, however (although I believe they still might). Do note that this sometimes uses a very liberal version of the word "bond", but it is based on what Brandon has defined it as. If you would like, you may mentally replace "bond" with "the underlying mechanics of a Nahel bond", but that's wordier than I'd like to write down. For all these lists, an asterisk (*) denotes a magic system that has not been canonically seen. Edit: Dawnshard has added..... complications, to some of these. I think the main points all still stand, but I will need to revise things with Cosmere-wide Command taken into account, as well as genericified Heightenings. To start, how do the magics we know of work? Spoiler Surgebinding: Surgebinder forms a Nahel bond with a spren [1], or a bond to an Honorblade [2] Draws in Stormlight or certain other alternative fuel sources such as Voidlight [3], and uses this to fuel their powers. Aviar: Function via the same mechanism as a Nahel bond [4] Pesumably they draw from the Spiritual, as there's not exactly any Stormlight on First of the Sun? Sand mastery: Give water to Investiture-charged microorganisms on sand Control the reaction to create a Cognitive bond Bond lets them draw from the Spiritual Realm and control the sand [5] *Ashynite disease magic: Incubator's power partially comes via a symbiotic bond between microorganisms on Ashyn and "spren-like Investiture" [6] *Aethers: The exact mechanics of an Aether bond are uncertain, both because in Aether of Night it is unclear, and because Aether of Night is non-canon and so the details are very subject to change. However, the basics that the magic system Bond with Aethers [12] Power comes from Shards [13] Gemhearts: Most animals on Roshar have spren bonds, or at least gemhearts [19] [20] [21] Fabrials (may actually be up to three separate magics): Old fabrials work somehow based on a spren trapped in Shadesmar being connected to a fabrial [18] New fabrials work by trapping a spren in a gem and using metals with it to produce a predictable effect [18] Natural fabrials (no official term) work by attracting a spren with Rhythms and Stormlight, which they use to produce an effect [26] Purelake Fish (may be category of gemhearts?): Fish from the Purelake have magic effects due to spren bonds [22] BioChroma: Based on the fact Divine Breaths are Splinters [7], I expect normal Breaths may be too? Divine Breaths: A Divine Breath is a Splinter [7] melding with your soul [23] Royal Locks come from a fragment of a Divine Breath [24] Allomancy: Gets power from Preservation [8] "Filtered" through the metal to get an effect [8] Dor: User creates shapes related to their nation of origin [9] Method of creating shapes is nation-dependent [9] Dor flows through to perform an effect [9] Note that when I say "Dor", I do not mean AonDor alone, but the entire Selish magic system, which is one system with multiple variants [25] Feruchemy: Store and tap attributes in metal as Investiture, facilitated by a bit of Investiture involved from the magic system [10] Hemalurgy: Rips off a piece of one person's soul and attaches it to another [11] Fused: Different "brands" (as in branding iron, not trademarks) that seem to grant power [3] Vasher believes they recieve power via a Connection to Odium [26] Additional tidbit: depth of bond increases efficiency of Investiture usage [14]. This is not particularly unexpected, but having it explicity confirmed to be the case is useful. Another tidbit: A Nahel bond is the spiritwebs of the spren and Radiant melding partially [15], as well as "any time you're bonding with-- the bond between a soul and Investiture" [16]. Hey, I'm noticing a pattern... Spoiler Well, I certainly hope you are, considering that I put them in the order of how obviously bond-y they are, right after a TL;DR explaining I think they're all bonds. To be a bit less snarky in response things I myself am writing, perhaps I should get a long sleep before continuing this. But as I'm too lazy to sleep right now, I'll just get into the theory instead: Surgebinding: Canonically a bond Aviar: Canonically the same thing as a bond, so probably a bond Sand mastery: A bond, assuming Khriss knows her home planet's magic *Ashynite disease magic: Literally described as a bond *Aethers: So bond-y that "[Aether type] Bond" is used to describe the bonded person Gemhearts: Several of these are explicitly bonds Fabrials: Old fabrials: Probably spren is bonded to fabrial in some way? Fabrial perhaps used as intermediary between person and spren? New Fabrials: Could be an artifical gemheart bond? Uses Cognitive entity directly, so bond may not even be needed Natural fabrials: Direct action by Cognitive entity, no bond necessary Purelake Fish: Also confirmed spren bonds Might even be just gemhearts BioChroma (very speculative): Breaths held by a person would be bonded to that person? Breaths are not consumed by Awakened object over time, so likely draws Spiritual power NB is "robot spren" [28] Drained color could fuel creation and bonding of "robot spren" entity? Bind Breaths together into one entity Imprint Intent upon it Bond it to object Restoring Breaths is restoring bond to self and breaking binding between multi-Breaths if applicable Divine Breath: Description matches the definition of a bond pretty exactly Royal Locks are a subset of this Allomancy: In Way of Kings Prime, Nahel bonds apparently were bonds directly with a Shard, not a spren [16] Sand mastery gives precedent for fueling temporary bonds Allomancy could be weak bond with Preservation fueled by metals Stronger Allomancer = one whose sDNA contains more of Preservation already, allowing the bond to be stronger All Scadrians contain extremely weak bond due to Preservation making them, hence the mists Snapping This explains why granting Allomancy is a "side effect" of lerasium [27]: the main purpose is just increasing Connection Dor: Raoden's Dor attacks were because he "gave the Dor a slight opening into his soul" [17] Nahel bond is "any time you're bonding with-- the bond between a soul and Investiture" [16] Based on this, I'd say Dor magic = bond with the Dor Fused: Vasher believes they get power via direct Connection to Odium, which sounds bond-y to me And of course, Ascension: Bond fully with Shard, so that ones spiritweb is merged completely with that of the Shard Well of Ascension was simply bonding with smaller part of Shard, with limited supply of power You missed a couple... Spoiler Yes, I did, and there's a reason for that. You see, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy are not like these other systems. Feruchemy involves storing traits from yourself, and Hemalurgy stealing traits from others. There is no external source of power, except for the slight bit needed to facilitate the transfer of the attributes. As such, a bond may not be necessary. However, for the sake of completeness, I figured I'd see if they fit anyway, and in fact they do, merely in a different way from any of the above. You see, I believe that these two magics involve forming a bond with the piece of metal itself. This, however, is more of a stretch, and I don't really love it. Feruchemy: Form a bond with the metal's Cognitive Aspect Bond is incredibly weak and can only be maintained by physical contact Transfer power back and forth between it and you Change in state is fueled by miniscule amounts of Spiritual energy drawn via this bond Hemalurgy: Stealing: Stab spike into someone with Intent Form a (very very temporary) bond Rip that bond out forcibly, taking attribute with the spike (like how a deadeye has had some of its spiritweb ripped out) Granting: Stab it into someone else with Intent (or is Intent necessary for this part?) Forms a bond, just like with stealing Bond is even weaker than Feruchemy, requiring being embedded instead of just touching Bonus, explains role of Connection in@Calderis's medallion theory: Overcharged Connection spike's charge has allows touch bond rather than stab bond Still very weak bond, hence why it requires touch Open question: where does power used to facilitate the "stealing" bond come from? Closing thoughts [insert my usual disclaimer about typos and odd ways of phrasing things, because I'm too lazy for more than a cursory scan of what I wrote, and another one of my usual disclaimers about there probably being obvious gaps I missed] References Spoiler Words of Radiance, interlude 9 Words of Radiance, chapter 87 Rhythm of War, chapter 11 (available at https://www.tor.com/2020/09/15/read-rhythm-of-war-by-brandon-sanderson-chapter-eleven/) https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367/#e11628 Arcanum Unbounded, The Taldain System https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/ixrjoc/a_doubt_about_the_ashynite_magic/g6e1p3j/?context=3 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/34/#e5995 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/337/#e10133 Elantris, chapter 28 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2/#e171 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103/#e1022 Aether of Night, chapter 1 Aether of Night, chapter 26 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116/#e4788 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35/#e2542 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/374/#e12247 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/133/#e2154 Rhythm of War, chapter 9 (available at https://www.tor.com/2020/09/01/read-rhythm-of-war-by-brandon-sanderson-chapter-nine/) https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223/#e6498 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93/#e2691 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12265 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/138/#e2109 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/80/#e5282 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e7340 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/190/#e4090 Rhythm of War, chapter 15 (available at https://www.tor.com/2020/10/13/read-rhythm-of-war-by-brandon-sanderson-chapter-fifteen/) https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270/#e7708 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100/#e3586 Edited November 23, 2020 by beewall Added: Disclaimer that DS has changed some things 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftl Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 You can also add something about Seons on Sel - there's a clear bond example. It seems like a bond without a magic system though, because bonding a Seon doesn't seem to give access to the Dor. Sel also has Forgery which doesn't seem very bond-like, and a few others we know very little about (Bloodsealing, Clay-shan?) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 32 minutes ago, ftl said: You can also add something about Seons on Sel - there's a clear bond example. It seems like a bond without a magic system though, because bonding a Seon doesn't seem to give access to the Dor. Sel also has Forgery which doesn't seem very bond-like, and a few others we know very little about (Bloodsealing, Clay-shan?) Yeah, I considered putting seons, but figured that didn't seem to be a magic system. Definitely are bonds though lol As for your second point, note that I put plain "Dor", not AonDor. All Selish magics are manifestations of a single system using the Dor, just as Surgebinding has various manifestations on Roshar, or Allomancy various manifestations on Scadrial: Quote Windrunner Why does Scadrial, which has two Shards, only have three manifestations of investiture, (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) but Sel, also with two Shards, has five manifestations of investiture (AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing)? Brandon Sanderson Sel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel--much as Windrunning and Lightweaving on Roshar are kind of different magics, but also kind of the same. /r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013) So if one works by "letting the Dor into your soul", all of them probably do. Under the (admittedly rather broad) definition of "Nahel bond" Brandon gave, this likely qualifies, imo, even if the powers they give are rather weird. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 4 hours ago, beewall said: TL;DR All magics that draw from external sources function via bonds with entities made of Investiture (generally Spiritual or Cognitive beings). No, there are counter examples 4 hours ago, beewall said: Magics that do not draw from external sources seem to possibly not do so, however (although I believe they still might). Do note that this sometimes uses a very liberal version of the word "bond". If you would like, you may mentally replace "bond" with "the underlying mechanics of a Nahel bond", but that's wordier than I'd like to write down. To start, how do the magics we know of work? Hide contents Surgebinding: A Surgebinder forms a Nahel bond with a spren [1], or a bond to an Honorblade [2], and then draws in Stormlight or certain other alternative fuel sources such as Voidlight [3], and uses this to fuel their powers. The Fused Fabrials - Regrowth can come from a Fabrial. The bond allows a himan to use a Surge. The Surge itself exist without a bond. 4 hours ago, beewall said: Hey, I'm noticing a pattern... Hide contents Well, I certainly hope you are, considering that (with the exception of Aethers) I put them in the order of how obviously bond-y they are, right after a TL;DR explaining I think they're all bonds. To be a bit less snarky in response things I myself am writing, perhaps I should get a long sleep before continuing this. But as I'm too lazy to sleep right now, I'll just get into the theory instead: Surgebinding: Definitely a bond. Aviar: Also definitely a bond. But not the rest of the animals. And the Aviars do work without a bond. Animals gather under the trees wild Aviars spend the night to hide their minds. 4 hours ago, beewall said: Sand mastery: You guessed it, a bond. Ashynite disease magic: Hey, another bond! BioChroma: Well, here's where it's not confirmed to be a bond. However, I expect it does still function as one, if in a slightly more complicated way. Right now, I am leaning towards Breaths being bonded to a person, and the color that gets drained being used to transfer this bond to the Awakened object, so that it can continually perform its task. The fact that Breaths are not consumed by an Awakened object makes me think the power comes from the Spiritual, though whether the power that's drawn is to carry out the action or merely to replenish the power within the Breath, I am uncertain. Withdrawing the Breath is simply restoring the bond to yourself, rather than the object. Allomancy: Now it gets somewhat foily. You see, I believe that Allomancy functions by using up the metal to maintain a bond with Preservation itself, in order to receive power that way. It would be a very weak bond, but a Shard is powerful enough that even a weak bond with it can fuel Allomancy. A stronger Allomancer would be one whose sDNA contains more of Preservation already, allowing the bond to be stronger. One thing that to me suggests this may be possible is that, in Way of Kings Prime, Nahel bonds apparently were bonds directly with a Shard, not a spren [16]. Dor: Raoden's Dor attacks were because he "gave the Dor a slight opening into his soul" [17]. In the Cosmere, a Nahel bond is "any time you're bonding with-- the bond between a soul and Investiture" [16]. Based on this, I would say it's likely that the Dor magic functions via a form of Nahel bond between the user and the Dor. Aethers: Also pretty obviously bonds. I mainly put this one last because I forgot about it and don't want to put effort into renumbering the references, but also want the references to be referenced in numerical order, as opposed to the rest, which were ordered by confidence that they are bonds. Kandra (and Mistwraiths) - no bond Shades - no bond Shard Blades - no bond, an unbonded Blade cuts just as well as a bonded Blade Seons - they communicate with each other without a bond Skaze - no bonds Purelake fish - no bond Animals of First of the Sun - no bond Animals shelled in Terken - no bond Royal Locks - no bond 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proletariat Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 I don't think it's about an essential experience of bonds, but really just where a shard decides to throw in resources and shards haven't always been people-centric with their investment. On Scadrial the shards created everything, and so everyone is a micro-sliver and that's why magic like feruchemy and hemalurgy is based on the little bit of preservation inside of everyone. On Nalthis the shard consciously splinters itself into every human on the planet and non-human creatures and objects would only get access if given it by humans. OTOH on Roshar rather than creating or investing in humans the shards created spren as their thing, which are splinters of them and so for every other creature on Roshar their experience of magic is mediated via bonds with those beings. Unless a shard directly invests in or creates humans, then magic is only going to exist in so far as people can relate to what actually is invested. If they can't relate to it then you just get like the dark side of Taldain, or on Threnody. This doesn't mean that everything is a bond, IMO. Just that for humans that are not invested, they can only experience these powers through relating to other beings who are invested. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 Ah, this is why I posted it in the RoW section. Knew I was forgetting a couple. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The Fused We don't know how their "brands" work, but a bond with Odium and/or a voidspren in some way feels likely to me. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Fabrials - Regrowth can come from a Fabrial. The bond allows a himan to use a Surge. The Surge itself exist without a bond. Based on the description of Soulcasters, spren are indeed bonded to the Surge fabrials, just in Shadesmar. Normal fabrials, perhaps bonded to the gemstone? But they work directly off a spren being there, so a bond would theoretically not be necessary, because it's using a being of Investiture anyway. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: And the Aviars do work without a bond. The bond with an entity of Investiture is where their powers come from. Quote Brandon Sanderson Aviar have a symbiosis with an Invested entity. Aviar are more like, they're kind of weird because they fulfill both the role of a spren, but also the person that's bonding the spren. They're an intermediary. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Kandra (and Mistwraiths) - no bond Depends on how exactly mistwraiths work. Personally, I got the impression they were supposed to be biological (if fantastical) rather than magical. But I don't know. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Shades - no bond Shades are Cognitive Shadows, not a magic system. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Shard Blades - no bond, an unbonded Blade cuts just as well as a bonded Blade That's because it has already formed. The only magic part is the summoning and dismissal, the rest is a natural result of being a sword of solid Investiture. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Seons - they communicate with each other without a bond Inherent part of the nature of seons, I'd guess. Probably share a sort of bond connecting them, anyway. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Skaze - no bonds We don't know enough about skaze to say, I'd guess. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Purelake fish - no bond Actually, they are the result of a bond. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Animals of First of the Sun - no bond They do not use an external power source. I assume they simply use their Cognitive aspects in some manner. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Animals shelled in Terken - no bond We don't know how terken works, but it seems to function similar to aluminum, and as far as we know, aluminum's immunity is not due to a magic system. Now, I'm not saying it is aluminum (though I wouldn't be surprised if terken contains trace amounts), just that it may function similarly. 4 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Royal Locks - no bond Royal Locks are due to a fragment of a Divine Breath, which is a Splinter melding with your soul, which qualifies as a Nahel bond, or at least a bond functioning off the same fundamentals. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Proletariat said: I don't think it's about an essential experience of bonds, but really just where a shard decides to throw in resources and shards haven't always been people-centric with their investment. On Scadrial the shards created everything, and so everyone is a micro-sliver and that's why magic like feruchemy and hemalurgy is based on the little bit of preservation inside of everyone. On Nalthis the shard consciously splinters itself into every human on the planet and non-human creatures and objects would only get access if given it by humans. OTOH on Roshar rather than creating or investing in humans the shards created spren as their thing, which are splinters of them and so for every other creature on Roshar their experience of magic is mediated via bonds with those beings. Unless a shard directly invests in or creates humans, then magic is only going to exist in so far as people can relate to what actually is invested. If they can't relate to it then you just get like the dark side of Taldain, or on Threnody. This doesn't mean that everything is a bond, IMO. Just that for humans that are not invested, they can only experience these powers through relating to other beings who are invested. That's what I figured at first, but then I realized Allomancy is the only externally powered magic we have seen that's not described in terms of bonds (neither BioChroma nor the Dor is described using the word itself, but the description Brandon gave matches his definition of a bond perfectly). Rather than assume Allomancy is the only one that doesn't use bonds when every other magic does, I find it more likely that Allomancy just fits it in a not-immediately-obvious way. And sand mastery + the Dor offer a pretty clear explanation when bits of what happen with those two are combined. Hemalurgy and Feruchemy are the ones I'm less sure of (though I did come up with a theory for them anyway), but they also aren't externally powered. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 39 minutes ago, beewall said: Based on the description of Soulcasters, spren are indeed bonded to the Surge fabrials, just in Shadesmar. Normal fabrials, perhaps bonded to the gemstone? But they work directly off a spren being there, so a bond would theoretically not be necessary, because it's using a being of Investiture anyway. Soulcasters are an exception. And this stretches "bond" beyond the breaking point. A gem stone has no spirit web. And we have: Windspren gluing things together for pranks the Stormfather the Nightwatcher Even free spren have arcane powers. 39 minutes ago, beewall said: The bond with an entity of Investiture is where their powers come from. That works for the birds, but not for the other magical animals and plants. 39 minutes ago, beewall said: Depends on how exactly mistwraiths work. Personally, I got the impression they were supposed to be biological (if fantastical) rather than magical. But I don't know. Kandra would show in a blood test. 39 minutes ago, beewall said: Shades are Cognitive Shadows, not a magic system. Well, no. The Shades wither away people interact with silver They are a very basic system and not easily usable, but they are a system. 39 minutes ago, beewall said: That's because it has already formed. The only magic part is the summoning and dismissal, the rest is a natural result of being a sword of solid Investiture. You can form a Shard fork with no cutting edge. And only part of the Blade cuts. 39 minutes ago, beewall said: Actually, they are the result of a bond. But you consume them. 39 minutes ago, beewall said: They do not use an external power source. I assume they simply use their Cognitive aspects in some manner. Neither do the symbiotic worms in the Aviars. You will have to make up your mind. Does First of the Sun count or not? And I forgot: Larkin Yolish Lightweaving Aimians Shard Plate 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Oltux72 said: A gem stone has no spirit web. Everything has a spiritweb. Everything. 1 minute ago, Oltux72 said: Windspren gluing things together for pranks They are Cognitive entities. As such, they have access to that power without a bond. 2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: the Stormfather What powers the Stormfather has is somewhat unclear. The visions were something Honor gave him the ability to do directly, the timeless zone is likely related to him simply being a really massive quantity of Investiture, etc. 3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: the Nightwatcher Direct Shardic intervention, not a proper magic system. 4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: That works for the birds, but not for the other magical animals and plants. Most of those would likely not be using an external power source, merely their Cognitive aspect (boosted by the large amount of Investiture on the island). 6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Kandra would show in a blood test. Perhaps they are magical, then. But it's not something we know enough about to be able to say much besides "Investiture probably plays some role". 7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Well, no. The Shades wither away people interact with silver They are a very basic system and not easily usable, but they are a system. That's a fair point. In that case, the fact that as Cognitive Shadows they are Cognitive entities comes into play. 8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: You can form a Shard fork with no cutting edge. And only part of the Blade cuts. Right, the sharp part of the sword cuts. I fail to see your issue with it? 9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: But you consume them. Still comes from a spren bond. 10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Neither do the symbiotic worms in the Aviars. I am assuming, based on the active effects they have and the fact that they work fine anywhere, that they draw from the Spiritual, since they do not seem to run out. 11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: You will have to make up your mind. Does First of the Sun count or not? Most of First of the Sun, no. The Aviar, yes. That's like asking "why do Nahel bonds count when most humans don't bond spren". Just because most of the planet does not bond things does not mean there are not creatures who do. 13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Larkin Probably has a spren bond. Quite a few Rosharan creatures do. 15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Yolish Lightweaving We don't know enough for me to have any idea. 18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Aimians Probably just Connection shenanigans rather than active use of magic. (Assuming you mean Dysians. Siah, we don't know enough.) 19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Shard Plate Similar situation to Shardblades. They are created using a bond, but once the dead Plate is left and just sits there, it is no longer an active use of magic. The Syl interlude seems to confirm lesser spren theory, which would involve a lot of bonds, most likely. Feeding it SL to regrow it is probably doing weird things related to the lesser spren that bonded to create it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proletariat Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 I don't think anything is really fleshed out with the sand stuff. We know what it's doing, and that it's hereditary to some degree, but not enough to establish there is some symbiotic bond happening. In terms of Allomancy there is no bond. Due to imbibing of lerasium in the ancestral line there are people who are more connected to Preservation and can therefore tap into that investiture when stimulated by specific alloys but it's not a bond that is really created through any conscious intervention. People are born that way. I very much doubt Preservation is even capable of creating that kind of bond given he cannot even project a single thought toward someone. That there's an external power source for something does not immediately follow that there is a symbiotic bond. The Pathians are probably the only thing comparable on Scadrial, in that they maintain a two way connection to Harmony via those earrings. And I think we can't really call the Dor a 'bond' either, since it's a mindless force and the primary thing that seems to shape their expression of their abilities is their culture, ethnicity, and place. At this point it's more similar to the way Allomancy taps into a pool of investiture. It's a power source not a bond based on a spiritual connection. The bonds that do exist on Sel that are comparable are the Seon bonds, but that's not where magic comes from and I think it's informative that these bonds exist and don't determine the powers of people on Sel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Proletariat said: I don't think anything is really fleshed out with the sand stuff. We know what it's doing, and that it's hereditary to some degree, but not enough to establish there is some symbiotic bond happening. I'm taking this directly from the Ars Arcanum. Khriss explicitly says it's via a bond, forged using the reaction from water and lichen. 6 minutes ago, Proletariat said: the primary thing that seems to shape their expression of their abilities is their culture, ethnicity, and place. I am not arguing that a bond shapes the outcome of the magic. I am arguing that a bond provides the Investiture in the first place. Weird Connection stuff, combined with the shapes you make, are what determine what the power does once you have it, I agree. As to the rest: I am not using "bond" to mean "conscious decision between two beings". I am using it with the definition Brandon used, that of Investiture melding with the spiritweb. That's why I clarified at the start: 11 hours ago, beewall said: Do note that this sometimes uses a very liberal version of the word "bond". If you would like, you may mentally replace "bond" with "the underlying mechanics of a Nahel bond", but that's wordier than I'd like to write down. I am by no means arguing Preservation decides to bond people every single time they burn a metal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, beewall said: Everything has a spiritweb. Everything. There is a qualitative difference. Things show as a bead in Shadesmar. Life forms have a soul flame. 26 minutes ago, beewall said: They are Cognitive entities. As such, they have access to that power without a bond. Well, that is very drastic limit. 26 minutes ago, beewall said: What powers the Stormfather has is somewhat unclear. The visions were something Honor gave him the ability to do directly, the timeless zone is likely related to him simply being a really massive quantity of Investiture, etc. Well, he creates a gigantic storm for one. 26 minutes ago, beewall said: Direct Shardic intervention, not a proper magic system. Not really. Cultivation handling people and the Nightwatcher handling people are related but distinct processes and have different results. For one, the Nightwatcher does something permanent. 26 minutes ago, beewall said: Most of those would likely not be using an external power source, merely their Cognitive aspect (boosted by the large amount of Investiture on the island). Neither do Aviar. And Aviar work on the mainland and even on Roshar (and if Jak is correct on Scadrial) 26 minutes ago, beewall said: Perhaps they are magical, then. But it's not something we know enough about to be able to say much besides "Investiture probably plays some role". Yet Kandra are physical. And so are dragons. 26 minutes ago, beewall said: Right, the sharp part of the sword cuts. I fail to see your issue with it? The sword performs arcane acts. It cannot be compared to aluminium. It is physical. 26 minutes ago, beewall said: Still comes from a spren bond. Well, no. The fish is consumed after being cooked or fried. At that time it is dead. The spren bond has been broken. A spren may have "charged" the fish through a bond, but the actual arcane end effect features no bond. 26 minutes ago, beewall said: I am assuming, based on the active effects they have and the fact that they work fine anywhere, that they draw from the Spiritual, since they do not seem to run out. Most of First of the Sun, no. The Aviar, yes. That's like asking "why do Nahel bonds count when most humans don't bond spren". Just because most of the planet does not bond things does not mean there are not creatures who do. OK, then what do we have? If you insist on an external source of Investiture and corporal users and knowing them well, then we'll be drastically limited. We have: Surgebinding Allomancy a few Selish systems (AonDor, Bloodsealing, ChayShan, Dakhor, Forgery) Of those only Surgebinding in humans requires a bond. 26 minutes ago, beewall said: Similar situation to Shardblades. They are created using a bond, but once the dead Plate is left and just sits there, it is no longer an active use of magic. The Syl interlude seems to confirm lesser spren theory, which would involve a lot of bonds, most likely. Feeding it SL to regrow it is probably doing weird things related to the lesser spren that bonded to create it. Well, no, they do need an external source of Investuture and grant any user an arcane assistance (no bond involved) and they lock up without Stormlight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Neither do Aviar. And Aviar work on the mainland and even on Roshar (and if Jak is correct on Scadrial) Which is why I think they do use an external source: the Spiritual Realm. 4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: The sword performs arcane acts. It's a sharp object that is hard to damage because of the Investiture it is made from. Once it is summoned, there is no active use of magic. 5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: It cannot be compared to aluminium. I did not bring aluminum up in response to Shardblades, but to terken. 6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: For one, the Nightwatcher does something permanent. Cultivation probably could too, she almost certainly chose to let the memories return over time. 7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Well, he creates a gigantic storm for one. I don't believe he creates the storm any more than windspren create the wind, personally. 8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Well, no, they do need an external source of Investuture and grant any user an arcane assistance (no bond involved) and they lock up without Stormlight. I don't remember that part, so I may be misremembering. In that case, however, the fact it is made of spren bonded to each other a. is a bond and b. is spren. 10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: If you insist on an external source of Investiture and corporal users This is what the theory is about, yes. 10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: and knowing them well I require we know even a basic level of information about something, yes. Yolish Lightweaving is something where we know nothing about how it functions. 11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Surgebinding Allomancy a few Selish systems (AonDor, Bloodsealing, ChayShan, Dakhor, Forgery) Other systems we can look at, most of which we know for a fact use bonds: Breath Divine Breath and Royal Locks (not sure whether I'd count these or not, but you brought them up earlier) Sand mastery Aviar Surge fabrials (somewhat arguable, but Brandon considers fabrials one) Normal fabrials (maybe, but may also be due to a Cognitive entity on its own rather than a bond) Ashynite disease magic (we know very little, but the one thing we do know is that it is a bond) Aethers (once again, we know very little, but we know it is a bond) 15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Well, no. The fish is consumed after being cooked or fried. At that time it is dead. The spren bond has been broken. A spren may have "charged" the fish through a bond, but the actual arcane end effect features no bond. The Investiture still originates from a bond. 16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: And so are dragons. We know that gemhearts are related to something with the Sho Del in Dragonsteel. Perhaps dragons have something similar? Based on the Dragonsteel Prime sample chapters, dragons literally leak (what we assume almost certainly is) god metal. There's an awful lot of some sort of Investiture there, at the very least, and some form of bond could fit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 48 minutes ago, beewall said: Which is why I think they do use an external source: the Spiritual Realm. Well, that reduces an external source of Investiture almost to zero. Whence comes innate Investiture? 48 minutes ago, beewall said: It's a sharp object that is hard to damage because of the Investiture it is made from. Once it is summoned, there is no active use of magic. Sure there is, it edits a spirit web. Destructively so, but still a change. 48 minutes ago, beewall said: I did not bring aluminum up in response to Shardblades, but to terken. Fair enough. 48 minutes ago, beewall said: Cultivation probably could too, she almost certainly chose to let the memories return over time. Sure, but the Nightwatcher does not. Hence distinct. And the Nightwatcher does it alone. 48 minutes ago, beewall said: I don't believe he creates the storm any more than windspren create the wind, personally. That is pretty much guaranteed by the end of Words of Radiance. The Stormfather chooses to come in with an extraordinary High Storm. 48 minutes ago, beewall said: I don't remember that part, so I may be misremembering. In that case, however, the fact it is made of spren bonded to each other a. is a bond and b. is spren. You get stronger just by wearing the breast plate. 48 minutes ago, beewall said: This is what the theory is about, yes. Well, humans are by nature not magic. You need to add it somehow. Editing a spirit web is hard. So using an external source is easier. 48 minutes ago, beewall said: I require we know even a basic level of information about something, yes. Yolish Lightweaving is something where we know nothing about how it functions. Other systems we can look at, most of which we know for a fact use bonds: Breath No. An awakened object, especially a Lifeless, will continue to function even after the death of the Awakener 48 minutes ago, beewall said: Divine Breath and Royal Locks (not sure whether I'd count these or not, but you brought them up earlier) Evidence for a bond is weak 48 minutes ago, beewall said: Sand mastery Aviar Surge fabrials (somewhat arguable, but Brandon considers fabrials one) Normal fabrials (maybe, but may also be due to a Cognitive entity on its own rather than a bond) Ashynite disease magic (we know very little, but the one thing we do know is that it is a bond) Aethers (once again, we know very little, but we know it is a bond) The Investiture still originates from a bond. Well, the evidence from it coming to the user via a bond is there. That it originates from the bond is difficult. Spren have powers of their own. 48 minutes ago, beewall said: We know that gemhearts are related to something with the Sho Del in Dragonsteel. Perhaps dragons have something similar? Based on the Dragonsteel Prime sample chapters, dragons literally leak (what we assume almost certainly is) god metal. There's an awful lot of some sort of Investiture there, at the very least, and some form of bond could fit. Well, but where does this leave us? We have corporal entities that by themselves have arcane powers. At a minimum Kandra and dragons. Humans are not among them. That can be changed. Lerasium does it for example. Cultivation can do it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Well, that reduces an external source of Investiture almost to zero. Whence comes innate Investiture? I'm having trouble figuring out what you're asking, could you clarify? 2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Sure there is, it edits a spirit web. Destructively so, but still a change. I guess I could see that being extra magic. Imo, it's probably more just an inherent thing in the nature of the Blade rather than an active magical thing it is doing. 3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Sure, but the Nightwatcher does not. Hence distinct. And the Nightwatcher does it alone. That's a good point, and I realize I phrased it poorly. When I say that, I mean it in the context of a being using a Shard's power to do essentially whatever they want (see: the Well). But the way I wrote it implies I think it's Cultivation doing it, and that's not what I think. So I need to find a different way to word it in the future. 5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: That is pretty much guaranteed by the end of Words of Radiance. The Stormfather chooses to come in with an extraordinary High Storm. He can affect the highstorm, but that does not mean he actually created it, just like Kal can affect the wind but does not create all wind (this is an imperfect analogy, but is the first I thought of, and I hope it can get my point across well enough). 6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: You get stronger just by wearing the breast plate. That's a good point. I'll have to think on Shardplate more. 8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: No. An awakened object, especially a Lifeless, will continue to function even after the death of the Awakener Under the theory, Awakening forges a bond between the Breath and the Awakened object, not between the Awakener and object. 9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Evidence for a bond is weak Brandon has described it as a Splinter melding with the spiritweb, which is the definition of a Nahel-type bond (well, the actual definition Brandon gave is even broader, but for the purposes of this post I am narrowing the definition somewhat). 11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Well, the evidence from it coming to the user via a bond is there. That it originates from the bond is difficult. Spren have powers of their own. To be clear, that's what I meant by "originates", is "arrives to the user from the external source". That's a bad use of "originate", I will concede. A lot of this has been written without proper concern for precise wording. 14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: At a minimum Kandra Depends on how much magic is actually used in the transformation, but potentially. Another thing I'll have to think on that may be a flaw in the theory. 15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: and dragons I was speculating that dragons may have something similar to a gemheart. Alternatively, they could themselves be more in the Cognitive or something. 16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Lerasium does it for example Under my theory, lerasium's effects simply allow one to form the bond with Preservation. Side note, this fits with the "making Mistborn is a side effect" WoB on lerasium: what lerasium actually does is increases the Connection to Preservation, which as a side effect allows one to use metal to forge the temporary bond to draw power through. This also explains why it strengthens someone who is already an Allomancer: they already have some Connection, and the lerasium strengthens it. 19 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Cultivation can do it Shards tend to break the usual rules of magic systems. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 19 minutes ago, beewall said: Shards tend to break the usual rules of magic systems. So can the Nightwatcher See the case of the man who made things fall upwards. The problem is that the concept of bond is used extraordinarily broad. If you see even awakened objects as a bond between an object and Breath, I will have to ask what features a magic system would have to have to not be classified as arising from a bond? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 44 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: So can the Nightwatcher See the case of the man who made things fall upwards. Yeah, and I'm not counting the Nightwatcher as a proper magic system. That's why I said what she does is closer to direct intervention by a Shard or incredibly powerful being. When a Shard directly doing things gets involved, these rules don't have to apply. 45 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: I will have to ask what features a magic system would have to have to not be classified as arising from a bond? Well, I think that in the Cosmere, there won't be many that don't. I think that bonds are a fundamental part of externally-fueled magic systems used by Physical beings, at least within the context of Realmatics. I could see Allomancy as a bondless magic system, if it's just magic flows out of the Spiritual and immediately has an effect. However, based on how just about every other magic system uses bonds in the Cosmere, I suspect Allomancy functions based off one too, as I outlined in the main post. Hemalurgy and Feruchemy are examples of ones where it's probably not bond-based. Sure, I came up with a theory accounting for them, but I don't particularly believe that one, I just wanted to throw out there was potentially a way they could be. 51 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: If you see even awakened objects as a bond between an object and Breath This is actually one of the ones I feel most confident in. The Breath is shaped into a rudimentary mind, and partially melded with the object's spirit (but rather loosely, as it can be reclaimed easily). Under Brandon's definition, this is a bond. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 On 10/5/2020 at 9:47 AM, beewall said: That's what I figured at first, but then I realized Allomancy is the only externally powered magic we have seen that's not described in terms of bonds (neither BioChroma nor the Dor is described using the word itself, but the description Brandon gave matches his definition of a bond perfectly). Rather than assume Allomancy is the only one that doesn't use bonds when every other magic does, I find it more likely that Allomancy just fits it in a not-immediately-obvious way. And sand mastery + the Dor offer a pretty clear explanation when bits of what happen with those two are combined. Hemalurgy and Feruchemy are the ones I'm less sure of (though I did come up with a theory for them anyway), but they also aren't externally powered. I think it’s because everyone on Scadrial is born with a bond. They’re all splinters of Preservation, as Preservation’s investiture is what grants Sentience. Because of this, Scadrians may not follow the normal rules. If the bond with Preservation is strong enough, they can become Alomancers. I have no clue about Feruchemy, but it may not need a bond, as it’s fueled somewhat by the pre-existing one with Preservation (although the power is a manifestation of both Scadrian shards.) The power is also entirely end-neutral. Hemalurgy grants power by creating a bond between the recipient and the torn fragment of another’s soul. It’s most evident in the Kandra, who achieve sentience this way. The initial tearing of the Spirit Web may also create a temporary bond just prior, but I’m not so certain. More likely, is the intent to destroy creates a temporary bond with Ruin. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Hemalurgy grants power by creating a bond between the recipient and the torn fragment of another’s soul. It’s most evident in the Kandra, who achieve sentience this way. The initial tearing of the Spirit Web may also create a temporary bond just prior, but I’m not so certain. More likely, is the intent to destroy creates a temporary bond with Ruin. If you broaden the concept of bond that much, there is nothing you cannot describe as a bond. Hence the distinction becomes meaningless. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewsTherinTelescope Posted October 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 5 hours ago, Oltux72 said: If you broaden the concept of bond that much, there is nothing you cannot describe as a bond. Hence the distinction becomes meaningless. I don't fully disagree, but it's also the definition we are given. 8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: I think it’s because everyone on Scadrial is born with a bond. They’re all splinters of Preservation, as Preservation’s investiture is what grants Sentience. Because of this, Scadrians may not follow the normal rules. If the bond with Preservation is strong enough, they can become Alomancers. Hmm, yeah, probably. So you think Allomantic genes would then just be a stronger bond? Makes sense. I suppose burning metal would be using metal to temporarily boost the bond to the point you can draw real power from it? 8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: I have no clue about Feruchemy, but it may not need a bond, as it’s fueled somewhat by the pre-existing one with Preservation (although the power is a manifestation of both Scadrian shards.) The power is also entirely end-neutral. Scadrians having an innate bond feeding them power does solve the Feruchemy thing quite nicely, true. Though it should be pointed out it's not fully end-neutral, as the change of state from the attribute to Investiture is fueled by Shardic power. Which supports your innate bond idea. 8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Hemalurgy grants power by creating a bond between the recipient and the torn fragment of another’s soul. It’s most evident in the Kandra, who achieve sentience this way. Didn't even think of kandra, that's a good example of it, thanks! 8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: The initial tearing of the Spirit Web may also create a temporary bond just prior, but I’m not so certain. More likely, is the intent to destroy creates a temporary bond with Ruin. Yeah, that was mostly just a random "uh idk could work that way". I think it's possible still for Hemalurgy to work by forming and breaking a bond, but idk. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, beewall said: I don't fully disagree, but it's also the definition we are given. Hmm, yeah, probably. So you think Allomantic genes would then just be a stronger bond? Makes sense. I suppose burning metal would be using metal to temporarily boost the bond to the point you can draw real power from it? Scadrians having an innate bond feeding them power does solve the Feruchemy thing quite nicely, true. Though it should be pointed out it's not fully end-neutral, as the change of state from the attribute to Investiture is fueled by Shardic power. Which supports your innate bond idea. Didn't even think of kandra, that's a good example of it, thanks! Yeah, that was mostly just a random "uh idk could work that way". I think it's possible still for Hemalurgy to work by forming and breaking a bond, but idk. I think Scadrians are exceptions to a lot of rules because of how they were created. In a really, really, weird way they’re almost like Preservation’s Spren except that they’re entirely physical beings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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