Shallan's Origin Story

[Dark_Sun77]

Here are three of theories after reading up to Chapter 13 on Shallan's Origin.  Theory 1 may be true even if theory 2 and theory 3 are not.

1.) Shallan (and her family) are from Nalthis (or have ancestors from there).  The hair changing gives evidence here. Veil's seeing muted colors gives evidence. Various "parts" of Shallan have various levels of awakening. One of her forms will have white hair "Formless" maybe.

2.) The "girl who looked up" is Shallan's origin story. "The wall" is shadesmar.  The one side is Nalthis while the otherside is Roshar. Something about her going from Nalthis to Roshar caused a catastrophe to occur on Nalthis. The storms knocked down the wall. "Formless" may hold this story.

3.) These are the secrets that Mraize will share with her after she completed her mission to Lasting Integrity.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Dark_Sun77
Added information to the post to make it clearer

[Honorless he/him]

That's... plausible. Storms, that's quite plausible.

Hmm... but I think her hidden backstory is probably Shallan accidentally unleashing or attracting an Unmade (Dai-Gonarthis) towards her household.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, Dark_Sun77 said:

Here are three of theories after reading up to Chapter 13 on Shallan's Origin.

1.) Shallan (and her family) are from Nalthis.  The hair changing gives evidence here. Veil's seeing muted colors gives evidence. Various "parts" of Shallan have various levels of awakening. One of her forms will have white hair "Formless" maybe.

Why does she look Veden?

8 hours ago, Dark_Sun77 said:

2.) The "girl who looked up" is Shallan's origin story. "The wall" is shadesmar.  The one side is Nalthis while the otherside is Roshar. Something about her going from Nalthis to Roshar caused a catastrophe to occur on Nalthis. The storms knocked down the wall. "Formless" may hold this story.

Why did standard Rosharan travelling performers know the story?

 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why does she look Veden?

Returned can change their appearances, and that extends to their descendants to some degree (the royal locks), maybe Shallan is a closer relative of a Returned than Siri and Vivenna? Dunno.

 

[Dark_Sun77]

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

.Why does she look Veden?

About my theory #1: If my theory is true, "formless" or another "part" of Shallan would be the one that looks like a royal person from Nalthis.  Shallan would have been a "part" that formed at the time of the traumatic event to protect her from it.  Of course, all "parts" of Shallan carry an aspect of who she is, and when integration occurs, nothing will be lost.  I do need to look into the fact that the rest of her family should fit the description of a person from Nalthis.  I'll look into that. 

13 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why did standard Rosharan traveling performers know the story?

About my theory #2

To me, the story of the "Girl that looked up" is very likely a story of the migration from Nalthis to Roshar whether or not it is about Shallan, although the story sure activates a ton of memory and emotion inside of Shallan containing to her past.  Read the story in both places and you will see the details.  The girl's hair is white hair.  The mention of all the gruesome statues.  The scarf that she wears that is mentioned all the time.  The mention of seeing colors for the first time. Etc...  If this is true, then perhaps Nalthis' shards have been splintered as this is known as the "land of darkness." This story has been mentioned twice now.  Wit used this story to talk to Shallan about her "parts," her past, and her needed integration. The story is about the bringing of Stormlight from one side of the wall (shadesmar) "to the other side." This is exactly what the Ghostbloods are trying to do.  So, you bring up a good question. But I don't think it disproves the theory. 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

24 minutes ago, Dark_Sun77 said:

About my theory #2

To me, the story of the "Girl that looked up" is very likely a story of the migration from Nalthis to Roshar whether or not it is about Shallan, although the story sure activates a ton of memory and emotion inside of Shallan containing to her past.  Read the story in both places and you will see the details.  The girl's hair is white hair.  The mention of all the gruesome statues.  The scarf that she wears that is mentioned all the time.  The mention of seeing colors for the first time. Etc...  If this is true, then perhaps Nalthis' shards have been splintered as this is known as the "land of darkness." This story has been mentioned twice now.  Wit used this story to talk to Shallan about her "parts," her past, and her needed integration. The story is about the bringing of Stormlight from one side of the wall (shadesmar) "to the other side." This is exactly what the Ghostbloods are trying to do.  So, you bring up a good question. But I don't think it disproves the theory. 

Uhhh... Wasn't it confirmed that The Girl who Looked Up is the story of the Ashynite refugees (or their descendants) deciding to leave Shinovar and conquer the rest of Roshar?

If not, that's what it really feels like to me at face value...

[Dark_Sun77]

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

Uhhh... Wasn't it confirmed that The Girl who Looked Up is the story of the Ashynite refugees (or their descendants) deciding to leave Shinovar and conquer the rest of Roshar?

If not, that's what it really feels like to me at face value...

If it has been confirmed, please list the source.  That would be what it seems like at face value, but try reading the two instances of "the girl that looked up" with my theory in mind after you have read chapter 13 of Rhythm of War.  Chapter 13 of RoW makes it seem much more plausible.

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, Dark_Sun77 said:

If it has been confirmed, please list the source.  That would be what it seems like at face value, but try reading the two instances of "the girl that looked up" with my theory in mind after you have read chapter 13 of Rhythm of War.  Chapter 13 of RoW makes it seem much more plausible.

Alright, will do.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, Dark_Sun77 said:

About my theory #1: If my theory is true, "formless" or another "part" of Shallan would be the one that looks like a royal person from Nalthis.  Shallan would have been a "part" that formed at the time of the traumatic event to protect her from it.  Of course, all "parts" of Shallan carry an aspect of who she is, and when integration occurs, nothing will be lost.  I do need to look into the fact that the rest of her family should fit the description of a person from Nalthis.  I'll look into that.

Well, Shallan has very close relatives. Finding an explanation for her alone is insufficient. You have to explain why the whole Davar family looks Veden.

[Dark_Sun77]

Her father would have had to have been a king and his whole family would have the royal locks as heirs of the throne. So potentially it could work. A bit of a stretch though.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 hours ago, Dark_Sun77 said:

Her father would have had to have been a king and his whole family would have the royal locks as heirs of the throne. So potentially it could work. A bit of a stretch though.

Jasnah had had Shallan's pedigree verified, before she got her cousin a bethroatal. That means that the Davar family needs to have had some history, in any case longer than Lin Davar's alleged life time. Her cousins would not have the Royal Locks, as only those who were descendents of the current king get them. You'd have to propose Lin Davar being the last scion of House Davar.

[Xerun]

My current theory is that Formless is Diagonarthis. 
 

She keeps referring to the secrets of her past as if they are far worse than killing both her father and mother. However Adolin and most of her friends know this already. So what can be worse than that? She indicates that even Pattern might leave her if he learns her secrets. 
 

I do somehow think she’s somehow bonded him accidentally as a child and that she’s caused the beginning of the desolations. 

[jharter]

Commenting on theory 1, I too could believe that Shallan has the royal locks, and the reader is intentionally lead to believe lightweaving changes her hair color. In fact, I think Shallan herself assumes it's a lightweaving related ability and only Formless really understands. 

Going off of the paraphrased Warbreaker annotations on Coppermind,  "Like Returned, wearers of the Royal Locks can also change other aspects of the physical appearance. With practice, wearers are able to change their age, height, and body shape." So, if this theory already assumes Shallan has royal locks, we can assume that even her aging and basic appearance may be a manifestation. 

Assuming that, I believe it's possible that Shallan is not related to the other Davar's and replaced the original Shallan sometime during the original's childhood. I believe Formless is her true identity and that she's been working with the Ghostbloods since the beginning. Formless has taken care to manipulate her age and appearance to grow and mature as the original Shallan would have, but is likely much older. If she has access to royal locks then she would have access to this ability.

Related to this theory, I don't know if bonding Pattern was part of the Ghostblood's plans or not, but I think it's possible. Shallan also references heightened sense for color, even saying Veil only sees plain, dim ones. It's not impossible that Formless has access to breath and heightening. Pairing Formless with Pattern would be a viable way to give her access to stormlight as a replacement for breath (although I don't fully understand if a bond is needed for someone with breath to make use of stormlight, or to what degree it improves its potency).

Other related questions to the theory that I don't have reason to assume one way or the other would be "Is Formless a Returned?," "Why is Formless working with the Ghostbloods?", "Why was Shallan an important role to usurp?", ect. 

In my head cannon, I really want Formless's dark unforgivable secret to be related to either stealing the breath or the lives of thousands of people. That would give her a vested interest in the Ghostblood's mission to get stormlight off of Roshar and replace more controversial investiture systems like breath.

In my SUPER fanfiction head cannon, Formless is Shashara, Vasher didn't kill her like he thought. Creating Night blood and the tax his power takes, let alone the lives he's taken, may be what's haunting her and why she's trying to find a better investiture system for her research. She may be using the Ghostbloods since they have a synergistic goal. 

[+robardin he/him]

On 10/2/2020 at 7:47 AM, Honorless said:

That's... plausible. Storms, that's quite plausible.

Hmm... but I think her hidden backstory is probably Shallan accidentally unleashing or attracting an Unmade (Dai-Gonarthis) towards her household.

Yeah, it's plausible but (I would think/hope) unlikely because of the cross-work nature of something as basic as a back story of a major POV character being completely off-world.

I'm not sure the attracting of Dai-Gonarthis to the Davar household is what Shallan's repressing per se, but I wouldn't be surprised if whatever "really happened" may have attracted Dai-Gonarthis as a side effect.

I still think Shallan's mother calling her "one of THEM" is not what Mraize assumed it was about - that she was associated with the Skybreakers who were on a mission to kill Surgebinders or non-Skybreaker Radiants.

(For one, if her mother were a Skybreaker initiate on a mission to kill Surgebinders, and a firm enough believer to go after her own daughter, even she didn't know Shallan had advanced enough to summon a Blade wouldn't or shouldn't she also know that going after someone who can draw Stormlight with a knife is not likely to succeed? We never see Nale sending non-Surgebinders against one, he either goes himself or at least sends squires - it'd just be throwing away resources, for the most part.)

[Dark_Sun77]

On 10/4/2020 at 10:44 AM, jharter said:

Commenting on theory 1, I too could believe that Shallan has the royal locks, and the reader is intentionally lead to believe lightweaving changes her hair color. In fact, I think Shallan herself assumes it's a lightweaving related ability and only Formless really understands. 

Going off of the paraphrased Warbreaker annotations on Coppermind,  "Like Returned, wearers of the Royal Locks can also change other aspects of the physical appearance. With practice, wearers are able to change their age, height, and body shape." So, if this theory already assumes Shallan has royal locks, we can assume that even her aging and basic appearance may be a manifestation. 

Assuming that, I believe it's possible that Shallan is not related to the other Davar's and replaced the original Shallan sometime during the original's childhood. I believe Formless is her true identity and that she's been working with the Ghostbloods since the beginning. Formless has taken care to manipulate her age and appearance to grow and mature as the original Shallan would have, but is likely much older. If she has access to royal locks then she would have access to this ability.

Related to this theory, I don't know if bonding Pattern was part of the Ghostblood's plans or not, but I think it's possible. Shallan also references heightened sense for color, even saying Veil only sees plain, dim ones. It's not impossible that Formless has access to breath and heightening. Pairing Formless with Pattern would be a viable way to give her access to stormlight as a replacement for breath (although I don't fully understand if a bond is needed for someone with breath to make use of stormlight, or to what degree it improves its potency).

Other related questions to the theory that I don't have reason to assume one way or the other would be "Is Formless a Returned?," "Why is Formless working with the Ghostbloods?", "Why was Shallan an important role to usurp?", ect. 

In my head cannon, I really want Formless's dark unforgivable secret to be related to either stealing the breath or the lives of thousands of people. That would give her a vested interest in the Ghostblood's mission to get stormlight off of Roshar and replace more controversial investiture systems like breath.

In my SUPER fanfiction head cannon, Formless is Shashara, Vasher didn't kill her like he thought. Creating Night blood and the tax his power takes, let alone the lives he's taken, may be what's haunting her and why she's trying to find a better investiture system for her research. She may be using the Ghostbloods since they have a synergistic goal. 

 

I love what you have added to this theory. Thanks for jumping in.

[+honorblades he/him]

Hello friends, I have nothing to add other than a very... interesting tidbit I somehow missed on previous readings of WoR, which pertains to this theory I think. This is the scene in which the Davar family is attending a local fair, and Hoid is meeting with Lin Davar. I’m not sure if this scene has been explained before, I apologize if so. 
 

Quote

He glanced at Shallan as she stepped up into the box.

The man started, dropping his cup to the table. He caught it with a swift lunge, keeping it from tipping over, then turned to stare at her with a slack jaw. 
It was gone in a second, replaced with an expression of practiced indifference. 

This is the first time we see Hoid meet Shallan on screen, and in my opinion he seems entirely too surprised to see Shallan at a fair in which her entire family is also in attendance. What is it about Shallan in this moment that has Hoid, a man I would assume to be difficult to catch unawares, so absolutely floored? 
It is perhaps worth noting that immediately after this interaction, Hoid drinks some metals, coerces Shallan to do a little lightweaving, and then proclaims that she is battling “unnatural forces”. 
 

Overall a weird scene. I hope this helps, but I suspect I will have only inspired more questions 

[+Bliev she/her]

1 hour ago, lightweaver spy said:

Hello friends, I have nothing to add other than a very... interesting tidbit I somehow missed on previous readings of WoR, which pertains to this theory I think. This is the scene in which the Davar family is attending a local fair, and Hoid is meeting with Lin Davar. I’m not sure if this scene has been explained before, I apologize if so. 
 

This is the first time we see Hoid meet Shallan on screen, and in my opinion he seems entirely too surprised to see Shallan at a fair in which her entire family is also in attendance. What is it about Shallan in this moment that has Hoid, a man I would assume to be difficult to catch unawares, so absolutely floored? 
It is perhaps worth noting that immediately after this interaction, Hoid drinks some metals, coerces Shallan to do a little lightweaving, and then proclaims that she is battling “unnatural forces”. 
 

Overall a weird scene. I hope this helps, but I suspect I will have only inspired more questions 

I always felt this just meant he could see that she was lightweaving and had bonded a Cryptic. He probably didn't know that it was *her* he was going to see when he arrived at that fair, but seeing her presence and her bond meant that the Desolation would soon begin ("unnatural forces"). But it could definitely be deeper than that!

[ftl]

Yeah, I think it means there was already something noticeably special and unusual about her.

Could be the spren bond/lightweaving. Could be whatever else was going on with House Davar.

[Dark_Sun77]

Another thing I just picked up is that Shallan might have been adopted by house Davar.  In book three, when she put her hand on the heart of the revel, she was an urchin when she was hunger meaning that one of her personalities holds that she was a street urchin at some point in her life.

[+Bliev she/her]

@Dark_Sun77 I believe Brandon confirmed that her father and mother were biologically related to her.

[Dark_Sun77]

15 hours ago, Bliev said:

@Dark_Sun77 I believe Brandon confirmed that her father and mother were biologically related to her.

Ok, good to know.

[JoyBlu she/her]

On 10/8/2020 at 8:45 PM, Bliev said:

@Dark_Sun77 I believe Brandon confirmed that her father and mother were biologically related to her.

@Darksun

I asked Brandon if she was the biological child of her Father. He said yes. Here is the WoB. I should have been more specific and asked about her mother as well. 

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)
#37 

 

JoyBlu

Can you confirm that Shallan is the biological child of her dad, Lin Davar?

Brandon Sanderson

*evil laugh* Should I confirm that? Yeah, I'll confirm that, she is.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/367/#e11634

 

 

 

 

[Wyndleblade she/her]

So technically her mother could have been from Nalthis, worldhopped to Roshar and then settled down with a man who knew nothing about her past? Would that pass on the royal locks?

[Wyndleblade she/her]

Lets say she has royal locks. I see only three options:

1) Lin Davar is Ridger or Shallans mother was Fafen

2) She got royal locks in the same way the royal line of Idris got royal locks in the very beginning. 

3) (very implausible/but oddly fitting) Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Shallan's mother was Siri and father was the God King who were both retired after a new god King was born. I think Treledees did mention that the God Kings retire to a island. Roshar is an island and where better spot to put a being that needs constant breath than a place where he can ingest Stormlight instead.

 

[JoyBlu she/her]

On 10/12/2020 at 10:52 AM, Wyndleblade said:

Lets say she has royal locks. I see only three options:

1) Lin Davar is Ridger or Shallans mother was Fafen

2) She got royal locks in the same way the royal line of Idris got royal locks in the very beginning. 

3) (very implausible/but oddly fitting) Warbreaker spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Shallan's mother was Siri and father was the God King who were both retired after a new god King was born. I think Treledees did mention that the God Kings retire to a island. Roshar is an island and where better spot to put a being that needs constant breath than a place where he can ingest Stormlight instead.

 

#1) hmmmmmmmmmm

#2) I’m not entirely sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying Shallan is a returned? Or one of her parents was a returned?

#3) interesting idea but I’m certain it’s not all true — but maybe parts of it could be? You may be onto something there. Roshar is indeed an island. Fascinating. I’m sure pattern would be fascinated as well.