Trell is Discord

[Urtan]

I am listening trough Mistborn for the nth time.

The Terris prophecy of the Hero of Ages is undoubtedly extremely accurate work created somehow with Fortune, possibly created by Preservation itself. They are uncannily accurate so far. My theory focuses on this part.

He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it. 

My theory is that Ruin and Preservation aren't true opposites. That would mean that the powers aren't exactly balanced. 

Harmony is perfect balance. Action and reaction perfectly matching together. 

Sazed took the powers of Ruin and Preservation and forced them together. They weren't exactly balanced, so he took the excess power from both shards, and dumped it. The powers discarded in creation of Harmony would by definition be the opposite of harmony, which perfectly fits the dualistic nature of Scadrial. These powers wouldn't merge, like the rest did. It would be separate pieces of Ruin and Preservation, but they would interact together. This would create a new entity, which we haven't seen so far. The powers can't be held by a Vessel, like other Shards, because the powers are too chaotic to be understood by any mind, even other Shards.

Discord is the opposite to Harmony.  Pure chaos is a good description. The entity WOULD still have intent. Big enough mass of Investiture is bound to have Intent.

Harmony says he doesn't know what it is, but I think he somewhat understands what happened. He used the name Trell. Trellagism is dualist belief (which by itself isn't surprising on Scadrial), where there are two opposing gods. He knows that Trell is the opposite to him.

Another thing is, the metal spike used by Paalm gives her allomancy. Why? Spike created from godmetal of Autonomy wouldn't by the nature of Autonomy grant the powers of another Shard. But if the metal is just combination of Atium, which would create immensely powerful hemalurgic charge, and Lerasium, which gives allomancy, it would fit perfectly.

Harmony can't see hemalurgic creations created with Trellium. Either the opposite nature of Discord creates interference and makes them invisible for him, or Harmony can't comprehend the nature of the randomness of Discord. This would also fit with the power of Ruin to affect mad people, which Harmony somewhat obviously lacks. 

The red colour of the Investiture is easily explained by the "corruption" of investiture. If one Shard takes investiture of another, and changes it, it makes it red. The powers of Discord is multiples of discarded pieces of Ruin and Preservation fully interacting together, thus creating the red colour.

Sazed might have done something terrible for the Cosmere. He is impotent against Discord, because he is too perfectly balanced. If he tries to strike back, he destabilises himself and breaks. If something pushes Harmony, bad things might happen.

What would the shattering of Harmony do to Discord? Would it absorb the pieces, growing immensely more powerful, or would it possibly scatter the pieces of Harmony across the Cosmere?

What would be the effect of Discord on another Shard, which isn't perfectly balanced?

Why would people love Sazed for creation of Discord?

Is this just another wild theory, or are there some valid points?

[Aspiring Writer]

3 hours ago, Urtan said:

I am listening trough Mistborn for the nth time.

The Terris prophecy of the Hero of Ages is undoubtedly extremely accurate work created somehow with Fortune, possibly created by Preservation itself. They are uncannily accurate so far. My theory focuses on this part.

He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name shall be Discord, yet they shall love him for it. 

My theory is that Ruin and Preservation aren't true opposites. That would mean that the powers aren't exactly balanced. 

Harmony is perfect balance. Action and reaction perfectly matching together. 

Sazed took the powers of Ruin and Preservation and forced them together. They weren't exactly balanced, so he took the excess power from both shards, and dumped it. The powers discarded in creation of Harmony would by definition be the opposite of harmony, which perfectly fits the dualistic nature of Scadrial. These powers wouldn't merge, like the rest did. It would be separate pieces of Ruin and Preservation, but they would interact together. This would create a new entity, which we haven't seen so far. The powers can't be held by a Vessel, like other Shards, because the powers are too chaotic to be understood by any mind, even other Shards.

Discord is the opposite to Harmony.  Pure chaos is a good description. The entity WOULD still have intent. Big enough mass of Investiture is bound to have Intent.

Harmony says he doesn't know what it is, but I think he somewhat understands what happened. He used the name Trell. Trellagism is dualist belief (which by itself isn't surprising on Scadrial), where there are two opposing gods. He knows that Trell is the opposite to him.

Another thing is, the metal spike used by Paalm gives her allomancy. Why? Spike created from godmetal of Autonomy wouldn't by the nature of Autonomy grant the powers of another Shard. But if the metal is just combination of Atium, which would create immensely powerful hemalurgic charge, and Lerasium, which gives allomancy, it would fit perfectly.

Harmony can't see hemalurgic creations created with Trellium. Either the opposite nature of Discord creates interference and makes them invisible for him, or Harmony can't comprehend the nature of the randomness of Discord. This would also fit with the power of Ruin to affect mad people, which Harmony somewhat obviously lacks. 

The red colour of the Investiture is easily explained by the "corruption" of investiture. If one Shard takes investiture of another, and changes it, it makes it red. The powers of Discord is multiples of discarded pieces of Ruin and Preservation fully interacting together, thus creating the red colour.

Sazed might have done something terrible for the Cosmere. He is impotent against Discord, because he is too perfectly balanced. If he tries to strike back, he destabilises himself and breaks. If something pushes Harmony, bad things might happen.

What would the shattering of Harmony do to Discord? Would it absorb the pieces, growing immensely more powerful, or would it possibly scatter the pieces of Harmony across the Cosmere?

What would be the effect of Discord on another Shard, which isn't perfectly balanced?

Why would people love Sazed for creation of Discord?

Is this just another wild theory, or are there some valid points?

No, Discord is not Trell. Discord is Harmony is Sazed didn't balance the powers. Discord is not a separate being, it is what Sazed can be if he can't control the powers.

Questioner

Last time you said that his name if it wasn’t Harmony, it would be something else. Is it Discord?

Brandon Sanderson

This is relevant.

Questioner

It is relevant?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

[Chasmgoat]

good theory though

[Urtan]

Okay. If my theory stands, Harmony is perfectly balanced and can't turn into Discord without outside force. Harmony would have to do something so drastic it would tip the scales in either way, but by the nature of his new shard he can't do anything like that. 

In the WoB BS hadn't truly said it is true, but that the question was relevant. You might ask relevant question, but still be wrong.

Even if you take my theory, and exchange  every mention of Discord with Trell, it is still fully viable.

Btw. I dislike the theory of Autonomy being the Trell. For example the Set don't fit into it. Why would Autonomy create organisation with complex hierarchy hellbent on rulling others trough deception?

If Discord/Trell was chaos, you would by nature have parts of it creating seemingly orderly patterns, or "Sequences", so random organisation in the middle of chaos perfectly fits. 

[Aspiring Writer]

14 hours ago, Urtan said:

Okay. If my theory stands, Harmony is perfectly balanced and can't turn into Discord without outside force. Harmony would have to do something so drastic it would tip the scales in either way, but by the nature of his new shard he can't do anything like that. 

In the WoB BS hadn't truly said it is true, but that the question was relevant. You might ask relevant question, but still be wrong.

Even if you take my theory, and exchange  every mention of Discord with Trell, it is still fully viable.

Btw. I dislike the theory of Autonomy being the Trell. For example the Set don't fit into it. Why would Autonomy create organisation with complex hierarchy hellbent on rulling others trough deception?

If Discord/Trell was chaos, you would by nature have parts of it creating seemingly orderly patterns, or "Sequences", so random organisation in the middle of chaos perfectly fits. 

Again, no. Discord is Sazed, and Sazed is still Harmony. Sazed is currently resistin Trell, so Trell is not discord. Most like it is Autonomy's avatar, maybe one she made by accident. We know it's a Sard we know, and she is the most likely choice.

[supernerdcow]

21 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Again, no. Discord is Sazed, and Sazed is still Harmony. Sazed is currently resistin Trell, so Trell is not discord. Most like it is Autonomy's avatar, maybe one she made by accident. We know it's a Sard we know, and she is the most likely choice.

See, what the WoB says is that if Sazed's power wasn't Harmony it could be considered Discord. To the best of my knowledge op's theory holds true, and you the evidence you've supplied can even support OP's theory. Sanderson said that the name 'Discord' is relevant, but he didn't say how it would be. Just because Harmony is resisting Trell does not mean that it couldn't be a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde situation on a cosmic scale.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, supernerdcow said:

See, what the WoB says is that if Sazed's power wasn't Harmony it could be considered Discord. To the best of my knowledge op's theory holds true, and you the evidence you've supplied can even support OP's theory. Sanderson said that the name 'Discord' is relevant, but he didn't say how it would be. Just because Harmony is resisting Trell does not mean that it couldn't be a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde situation on a cosmic scale.

No, he can't be both at the same time. He is currently Harmony, so he can't be Discord. I have also considered the multi-personality, but that doesn't work because he was discord, they would all be dead. And the red surround the planet is because of another shard, so there appears to be a another shard working against Sazed. Trell is not Discord, it doesn't work.

[NutCase]

Remember how Ruin couldn't get the atium due to kelsier destroying the pits and elend's army burning the entire supply?

When kelsier tells the crew about how he destroyed the pits, he says he stopped the production of atium for approximately 300 years. That means that very soon after the events of Bands of Mourning, in Mistborn era 2, the atium will start to 'grow' again in the pits.

If sazed were to take this atium and absorb it as power, it would be pure Ruin power. This would lead to sazed's ruin side being stronger than his preservation side, because preservation used some of his power to create intelligent life.

I think maybe then sazed will become discord: when his ruin outweighs his preservation.

[+Harrycrapper]

Well, the Shards Sazed picked up aren't exactly equal in power. Preservation used some of his Investiture to make humans, which caused a power imbalance between the two shards inevitably leading to Ruin destroying Scadrial and Preservation being unable to stop it. That's why Preservation imprisoned Ruin and what led to the era 1 Mistborn books. That imbalance still existed when Sazed fused the Shards, and I think according to a WoB he's using that extra Ruin for something, but he didn't specify what. But if Sazed is fighting against his own Investiture, I think he'd know. 

[Weltall]

14 hours ago, NutCase said:

If sazed were to take this atium and absorb it as power, it would be pure Ruin power.

Yes, but here's the thing, he would have to do that knowingly and Sazed is perfectly aware of the inequality that's causing his two halves to currently be in balance. He has no real reason to consume that atium and every reason not to. It's been implied that Sazed is doing something with this extra Ruin and we have another WoB that it would be possible to create thinking life with extra Ruin, so there's a possible (if potentially dangerous) way for him to lock in the balance should he get thrown out of whack by expending any excess Ruin in the creation of new life so the powers balance out again.

On 10/1/2020 at 4:17 PM, Urtan said:

My theory is that Ruin and Preservation aren't true opposites. That would mean that the powers aren't exactly balanced.

Disprovable by many words of Brandon in which he's stated that the two Shards were equally balanced (initially and during the events of the books) and were polar opposites. For example:

Quote

Chaos (paraphrased)

Are Shards all paired? Does Endowment have a counterpart?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO. Also, yes and no. Not all Shards have perfect counterparts like Ruin and Preservation.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Why were Ruin and Preservation linked together?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because they're such perfect opposites. Basically it's just an opposites attract thing.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Weltall

[GeoMantrix]

Opposites might not be complements, cf. the alternative arrangements of trigrams around a Ba Gua, sometimes called late heaven and early heaven.  In one, yin is six o'clock from yang, and in the other it's like 4 o'clock.  I like the 4 o'clock one because it reflects that pure yang is on the leading edge (of the black dot in a yin/yang swirl) while pure yin trails in the lee of the white dot.

However, I have to acknowledge that the 6 o'clock mapping is more relevant to a wu xing map (5 elements).  This is particularly relevant to the upcoming crossover of base 2 Scadrial with base 10 Roshar. 

Though I'm just getting into the part of RoW where awakening could work on the physical realm on Roshar.  Maybe the swordmaster is hogging all the windspren.  

My working theory on Trell is that it's Odium, but I dunno.  This is the first time I have contemplated discord.  Sounds like that's what the Lord Ruler was, where his idea if a balance was Noble/Skaa.  

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

14 hours ago, GeoMantrix said:

Opposites might not be complements, cf. the alternative arrangements of trigrams around a Ba Gua, sometimes called late heaven and early heaven.  In one, yin is six o'clock from yang, and in the other it's like 4 o'clock.  I like the 4 o'clock one because it reflects that pure yang is on the leading edge (of the black dot in a yin/yang swirl) while pure yin trails in the lee of the white dot.

However, I have to acknowledge that the 6 o'clock mapping is more relevant to a wu xing map (5 elements).  This is particularly relevant to the upcoming crossover of base 2 Scadrial with base 10 Roshar. 

Though I'm just getting into the part of RoW where awakening could work on the physical realm on Roshar.  Maybe the swordmaster is hogging all the windspren.  

My working theory on Trell is that it's Odium, but I dunno.  This is the first time I have contemplated discord.  Sounds like that's what the Lord Ruler was, where his idea if a balance was Noble/Skaa.  

Base five Roshar. Odium doesn't make much sense as both his attentions, his being and the majority of his power are somewhere else.

[+robardin]

On 11/12/2020 at 8:39 AM, NutCase said:

Remember how Ruin couldn't get the atium due to kelsier destroying the pits and elend's army burning the entire supply?

When kelsier tells the crew about how he destroyed the pits, he says he stopped the production of atium for approximately 300 years. That means that very soon after the events of Bands of Mourning, in Mistborn era 2, the atium will start to 'grow' again in the pits.

If sazed were to take this atium and absorb it as power, it would be pure Ruin power. This would lead to sazed's ruin side being stronger than his preservation side, because preservation used some of his power to create intelligent life.

I think maybe then sazed will become discord: when his ruin outweighs his preservation.

The atium would indeed start to reappear again at the Pits of Hathsin with the passage of time... If "Ati" still existed as the Vessel for an independent Shard of Ruin, and if the Pits still existed as a Perpendicularity. Neither is true after the Catacendre. Atium won't form naturally, because there is no Shardpool or Perpendicularity for Ruin on Scadrial any more, only one for Harmony, wherever that happens to be (and there might be more than one).

So the "approximately 300 years" thing and the timing of Era 2 story The Lost Metal being set approximately 300 years after the Catacendre, I think may be a red herring. (Or if it dovetails, will be in a way that is going to be A Big Twist.)

On 11/12/2020 at 0:55 PM, Harrycrapper said:

Well, the Shards Sazed picked up aren't exactly equal in power. Preservation used some of his Investiture to make humans, which caused a power imbalance between the two shards inevitably leading to Ruin destroying Scadrial and Preservation being unable to stop it. That's why Preservation imprisoned Ruin and what led to the era 1 Mistborn books. That imbalance still existed when Sazed fused the Shards, and I think according to a WoB he's using that extra Ruin for something, but he didn't specify what. But if Sazed is fighting against his own Investiture, I think he'd know. 

Indeed, there is a WoB for that, but basically a vague one-liner RAFO type of response:

Quote

rags

How is Harmony balanced when a part of Preservation's power is expended on human sentience? Isn't that what caused all the trouble to begin with?

Brandon Sanderson

Indeed. Hm... What could Sazed be doing with that extra power...

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)

Here's another thing to consider: while net of all things there would be slightly more "leftover Ruin" for Sazed to account for due to Leras having given more of Preservation to humanity than Leras had of Ruin, at the time of his double Ascension there was less than Full Ruin for him to pick up. At the very least, enough of Ruin was missing that it balanced out the "extra Preservation" given unto the humanity of Scadrial (apparently not enough was missing that he was actually tilted towards Preservation).

Why? Because of all the atium that Elend and his squad of Seers burned away. It was power that Ati "had wanted very, very badly" - power that was separated from and now external to him, as a result of Leras' treachery. Power that, once recovered, would give him the definitive edge over Preservation, because of the original imbalance. But also power such that the act of burning it away Allomantically meant it was inaccessible to him: burning atium didn't return that Investiture to the Shard of Ruin, otherwise he'd have been very pleased with Elend's act instead of being ragingly furious. (And I would assume the geodes that Kelsier shattered with Allomancy that destroyed the atium beads within them had a similar effect.)

So When Sazed Ascended, he picked up all the Preservation dropped by Leras/Kelsier/Vin, which included that which had been used to trap Ati in the Well and had then been released into the mists; and also all the Ruin that Ati dropped, which didn't include the portion in the atium of the Trustwarren.

That's the portion of power that is going to return to the Shard from whence it came, slowly over time. Not in the form of atium beads formed at Ruin's Perpendicularity, any more, though, but in furthering the imbalance of Ruin within Harmony.

And so "What could Sazed be doing with that extra power" to maintain the Balance of Harmony within him is the question. It has to be something he's had to do over the past 300 years, possibly "venting out" atium beads for Marsh to use or something (but not at the Pits), or maybe something else.

I used to wonder if Sazed somehow managed to Invest Nightblood with that portion of Ruin, but that doesn't fit the Cosmere Timeline as presently worked out (as a fan theory, admittedly, and not canon?), which places the Nalthian Manywar considerably before Sazed's Ascension.