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6+ ideals theory


delphinousy

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This is a theory that i came up with when i remembered that syl had explained that the spren who bonded with radients learned to make shardblades after honor crafter the honorblades for the heralds. This is implying that the 10 orders of spren were already bonding to radients, but they actually had to learn and figure out how to become shardblades, that this wasn't knowledge given to them or a built in part of the process that honor and/or cultivation built into the nahel bonding process. 
The theory is that this shows that the bonding process can grow and change, so why should we assume that the orders of the nights radiant are limited to only 5 ideals. it's entirely possible that if someone isn't fully satisfied with the 'journey' that they have been on, that they don't feel they've reached their destination, then they might go further and find a sixth or seventh ideal to swear. even if the orders were originally built with only 5 ideals per order, that may no longer hold true, we've already seen that different characters are swearing different ideals form each other within the same order, even though they still follow broad trends

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I dont think so, personally.  For one thing there is apparently something unique about the 5th ideal in that the Spren said they could forcibly break Syl's Bond before that point, with the implication that the bond becomes "Complete" at that point.  The other thing that makes me doubt this interpretation is that as I understand it, the Nahel Bond itself is what the Spren copied to create the Radiants and grant Surges, not just the physical form and/or function of Shardblades.  

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I feel like there could be something to this? after all, Nale seems to believe there's a legitimate threat that the modern Radiants could become powerful enough to destroy Roshar (but then again, he and Ishar are both insane, so eeehhh)...

I can't remember the exact wording but it's something along the lines of "previous restrictions on [the Radiants'] powers have been lifted" in relation to Honor's splintering.

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IIRC surgebinders where originally unbounded by oaths and it was Ishar that introduced order and law.

Quote

I dont have the digital copy but i believe its mentioned here: Words of Radiance, 42. Mere Vapors

This to me indicates that a 5th oath radiant is the equivilant of a fully bonded surgebinder (pre Ishar) and as such a 6th oath with the same spren would gain nothing (be words only).

Edited by Lemiltock
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I feel like there might be something here. I don't know what, but I have a gut feeling it could tie in to my theory that the 5th oath Connects the radiant and spren so deeply that they become Spiritually indistinguishable, becoming a single entity with total mastery of their surges and full sapience/sentience in all 3 realms.

Maybe that's not what happens naturally at the 5th ideal (which is why Nale doesn't look like some sort of person-shaped hole into space), but a Bondsmith (post-Honor's death) could deepen the bond of a 5th ideal radiant to the degree I'm thinking of with the fusion...

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3 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

I think that Dalinar's statement 'I am Unity' was a kind of 6th Oath, for those of stand to replace the functionality of the old Heralds. 

I expect our other main characters, will make similar oaths. 

I don't think Dalinar's statement regarding Unity was an Ideal at all.  The Ideal he says  just before this seems very much like something that would be a standard Bondsmith oath:

Quote

“I will take responsibility for what I have done,” Dalinar whispered. “If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.”

Unity, to me, is more a representation of Dalinar being 3-Ideal Bondsmith whose spren happens to be leveled up with a Shardic splinter.

But, in 6 1/2 weeks, I might learn the inaccuracy of that statement.

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On 10/2/2020 at 7:05 PM, dgreene196 said:

I don't think Dalinar's statement regarding Unity was an Ideal at all.  The Ideal he says  just before this seems very much like something that would be a standard Bondsmith oath:

That is correct.

Quote

Hoidonalsium

In that one long rejection of Odium, how many Oaths did Dalinar swear before merging the Realms? And is "I am Unity" the fifth.

Brandon Sanderson

No, that is not an Oath. He swore one ideal in that experience.

Hoidonalsium

Okay. How many Oaths is he on?

Brandon Sanderson

The number you think. So, he should have just finished three, right? Or maybe four. I'll have to go look. It's the number that you think it is. I'm not being sneaky on you. There's nothing sneaky there. He doesn't get armor, so I can't remember where he is... He should be at three. "Life before death." "I will unite instead of divide." "I will stand up each time I fall." Yeah, so he's done three.

Oathbringer Glasgow signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

 

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well yes, but brandon isn't saying that the limit is 5, just that there is a limit. We strongly suspect that Ishar is the one who bound the surges to the oaths, but we also know from the honorspren captain Notum that 'without honor there are no checks on your power' which he describes as being dangerous. we also now that, according to syl, the spren learned how to become shardblades after seeing the honorblades and learning to imitate it, so the shardblades weren't always a part of the orders and oaths, which means that the oaths and what they give aren't rigid, they can grow and changed (which makes sense because cultivation is suspected to have had a hand in their creation as well)
what all this means to me now, is that before honors death, hey were likely limited to 5 oaths, but with honor being dead, they may be able to swear some sort of a final 6th oath. We don't understand why Notum said that the nahel bond couldn't be broken once the 5th deal was sworn, it is suspected that the spren and spiritweb of the radiant are merging, but we don't know, and they are still separate entities, even if they are too strongly bonded, but a 6th ideal may actually merge them fully into a single entity, and who knows what that would do to both of them. 
if that happened, it would probably be like how changes the people who are affected by it strongly, like koloss or inquizitors.
i honestly think that it's a pretty low chance it will happen in the front 5 books, slightly greater i might happen in the back 5, but if we see it it will probably only once or twice total.

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2 hours ago, delphinousy said:

well yes, but brandon isn't saying that the limit is 5, just that there is a limit. We strongly suspect that Ishar is the one who bound the surges to the oaths, but we also know from the honorspren captain Notum that 'without honor there are no checks on your power' which he describes as being dangerous. we also now that, according to syl, the spren learned how to become shardblades after seeing the honorblades and learning to imitate it, so the shardblades weren't always a part of the orders and oaths, which means that the oaths and what they give aren't rigid, they can grow and changed (which makes sense because cultivation is suspected to have had a hand in their creation as well)
what all this means to me now, is that before honors death, hey were likely limited to 5 oaths, but with honor being dead, they may be able to swear some sort of a final 6th oath. We don't understand why Notum said that the nahel bond couldn't be broken once the 5th deal was sworn, it is suspected that the spren and spiritweb of the radiant are merging, but we don't know, and they are still separate entities, even if they are too strongly bonded, but a 6th ideal may actually merge them fully into a single entity, and who knows what that would do to both of them. 
if that happened, it would probably be like how changes the people who are affected by it strongly, like koloss or inquizitors.
i honestly think that it's a pretty low chance it will happen in the front 5 books, slightly greater i might happen in the back 5, but if we see it it will probably only once or twice total.

I dont think you can use the "theres no proof its not" as a real argument for a 6th oath existing. As to there being a limit see above WOB and that limit being the 5th oath see Nale, if anyone has the time and dedication to reach a higher oath it would be Nale as both the pateon and a member of the Skybreakers. Everything in world points to 5 oaths per nahel bond being the limit, there is no foreshadowing or evidence to suggest a 6th oath radiant (with the obvious exception of multiple bonds, but i dont think that counts)

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i honestly beleive that with his super strict views on following laws and rules nale would not even think to try for a 6th oath. and i wasn't trying to say 'there is no proof against this' as an argument, i was pointing out that a vague reference to there being limits doesn't mean that what is commonly accepted as the limit of 5 is correct, or that it couldn't have changed

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4 hours ago, delphinousy said:

i honestly beleive that with his super strict views on following laws and rules nale would not even think to try for a 6th oath. and i wasn't trying to say 'there is no proof against this' as an argument, i was pointing out that a vague reference to there being limits doesn't mean that what is commonly accepted as the limit of 5 is correct, or that it couldn't have changed

A WOB is not realy a vague reference though is it? And the limit being the 5 oath is a common belief because everything in the book points to 5 oaths, theres not even a hint of a 6th oath radiant, this is what i ment by your only evidence is theres no evidence that it doesnt exist. But to each their own and maybe it will happen.

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32 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

A WOB is not realy a vague reference though is it? And the limit being the 5 oath is a common belief because everything in the book points to 5 oaths

Well, I would actually say everything in the books points to ten oaths, since everything else comes in tens. Ten Heralds, ten Fools, ten Gemstones, ten Essences, ten days in a week, ten months in a year. What else, besides the number of oaths, comes in fives? Why, other than Nale, would we believe it limited to just five, and not ten?

Of course, I am inclined to believe Nale, and I don't expect anything after the fifth oath. But from what the book would lead you to believe, I would expect ten oaths, just as ten dominates the rest of Roshar.

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13 hours ago, Rainier said:

Well, I would actually say everything in the books points to ten oaths, since everything else comes in tens. Ten Heralds, ten Fools, ten Gemstones, ten Essences, ten days in a week, ten months in a year. What else, besides the number of oaths, comes in fives? Why, other than Nale, would we believe it limited to just five, and not ten?

Of course, I am inclined to believe Nale, and I don't expect anything after the fifth oath. But from what the book would lead you to believe, I would expect ten oaths, just as ten dominates the rest of Roshar.

5 oaths carried out by two parties equals 10, also i believe (ill search for the WOB later) that 5 oaths was chosen from a writting perspective as 10 oaths for 10 orders was alot of work. But the number 10 being common on roshar is different from all indications around the oaths specifically being 5

 

12 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

But then, Brandon has said to "never, ever trust anything a Herald says"... :ph34r:

He certainly does, but its not that Nale said theres only 5 oaths and that he is off the 5th oath, given hes likely had thousands of years, if anyone was to swear extra oaths it would be Nale.

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18 hours ago, Rainier said:

Well, I would actually say everything in the books points to ten oaths, since everything else comes in tens. Ten Heralds, ten Fools, ten Gemstones, ten Essences, ten days in a week, ten months in a year. What else, besides the number of oaths, comes in fives? Why, other than Nale, would we believe it limited to just five, and not ten?

There are actually five days in a week and ten weeks in a month

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which actually brings me to a different thought. Nale is a herald and all that entails, but he is also a radient, and venlie is a stormform envoy and also a willshaper, so clearly being a radient doesn't lock you out of being more. i wonder if instead, once someone has completed the 5th ideal, their connection to the spren will be complete enough that they can forma  new bond with a different order's spren?

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4 hours ago, delphinousy said:

which actually brings me to a different thought. Nale is a herald and all that entails, but he is also a radient, and venlie is a stormform envoy and also a willshaper, so clearly being a radient doesn't lock you out of being more. i wonder if instead, once someone has completed the 5th ideal, their connection to the spren will be complete enough that they can forma  new bond with a different order's spren?

This is theoretically possible (I dont thinks its stated that you need to complete the first bond, but that may be required) 

Quote

tganchero (paraphrased)

Is it true that humans can bond to multiple spren?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They can theoretically bond to multiple spren.

Words of Radiance Lexington signing (March 18, 2014)

 

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I think the only way there would be a 6th oath, would be radiants taking up the oath back. Spren and shards can't break oaths. Humans can (that was the problem with the oath pact). So, perhaps 5th ideal radiants taking up the oath pact (alon with their spren, that would be the key), could be considered a 6th ideal. Nale in reverse if you will

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On 10/11/2020 at 0:32 AM, Master Silver said:

I think the only way there would be a 6th oath, would be radiants taking up the oath back. Spren and shards can't break oaths. Humans can (that was the problem with the oath pact). So, perhaps 5th ideal radiants taking up the oath pact (alon with their spren, that would be the key), could be considered a 6th ideal. Nale in reverse if you will

mmm... That would require another Ishar....

 

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On 11/10/2020 at 7:32 AM, Master Silver said:

I think the only way there would be a 6th oath, would be radiants taking up the oath back. Spren and shards can't break oaths. Humans can (that was the problem with the oath pact). So, perhaps 5th ideal radiants taking up the oath pact (alon with their spren, that would be the key), could be considered a 6th ideal. Nale in reverse if you will

This i feel is still somethign else  the Heralds are not bound by the oaths the radients are. So while yes a Radient taking up the oath pact would have an additional responsibility it is not a continuation of the same system and so not a "6th radient oath"

 

On 14/10/2020 at 9:19 PM, Master Silver said:

This new chapter seems to give credence to this theory in a small way. Cognitive shadows become more like spren and less like men as time goes on. The spren Radiant bond might be able to help strengthen resolve and keep Radiant heralds from warping. 

I do like this, even if I am in the "not another oath pact" camp. I can see the spren helpping keep imortal people sane. The herlads insanity, however, is also a mixture of living too long which is what i think the spren wilk help with and Odiums torture, which I doubt the spren could significantly help with.

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