Most dangerous character in the cosmere in a fight?

[Aspiring Writer]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

He doesn't need to in warbreaker he makes people commit suicide on his blade.

Yeah, I'm including that in my statement. His mind control can be useful against normal people, but anyone with a strong will like a fused could probably resist it, and even then only a small portion is revealed, not the whole blade, and he doesn't seem to be as powerful then. With someone, he is the supreme god of the cosmere. Without them tho, he's going to have a hard time.

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

10 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Um... what do you think a melee is...? They’re synonyms.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/melee

Fray, "donnybrook," "brawl," "fracas": there are many English words for confused and noisy fights, and in the 17th century "melee" was thrown into the mix. It comes from the French melee, which in turn comes from the Old French meslee, meaning "mixture." "Meslee" comes from the Old French verb mesler, or "medler," which means "to mix." This verb is also the source of "medley" ("a mixture or hodgepodge") and "meddle" ("to mix oneself in others' affairs" or "to interfere

Basically, they mean the same thing and may be used interchangeably. In a non-powered fight Vasher and Kell come out on top. On a battlefield, Kaladin does.
 

In powered fight it can vary a lot depending on the situation. Provided there is enough sand, I can see Kenton being a surprisingly dangerous combatant. I don’t see him winning, but I do see him killing quite a few KR’s before he’s out. The eye holes are one of the few weaknesses in the plate, and his skill set allows him to target that directly. Plus, the Invested sand probably can’t be easily manipulated by surges. I suspect it could also damage plate.

 

I can also see Era 1 Mistborn + Feruchemists with Era 2 weaponry being a problem, particularly if they have good aim and aluminum bullets and a nice supply of Atium and Bendalloy. Particularly if they team up. Think Marasi burning Cadmium in Wayne’s Bendalloy bubble, while Wax quickly explains how guns work to Kell, Vin, Elend, Saze, Marsh, Tindwyl and Spook, while in a speedbubble  outside the Cadmium bubble. Then those eight dodge in and out repeatedly, sniping with aluminum bullets and throwing dynamite while their opponents are essentially frozen. Something like that, and I’d give the win to team Scadrial.

I consider a brawl fists and knives and a melee swords spears the works so that's just what I think of when I think of brawl and in the WoB you quoted Brandon says "beating up on each other" and "still not in pieces at the end" that alludes in my mind to fists and knives although you could make a argument for Dalinar in his prime because he didn't care about fighting dirty either and Brandon has said Dalinar was a VERY good fighter so agree to disagree

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

41 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

I consider a brawl fists and knives and a melee swords spears the works so that's just what I think of when I think of brawl and in the WoB you quoted Brandon says "beating up on each other" and "still not in pieces at the end" that alludes in my mind to fists and knives although you could make a argument for Dalinar in his prime because he didn't care about fighting dirty either and Brandon has said Dalinar was a VERY good fighter so agree to disagree

The synonymous terms brawl and melee typically refer to a small, uncontrolled fight, primarily with fists or blunt weaponry. It can refer to a fight with edged weaponry or firearms, however it never refers to organized combat. Melees occur on the battlefield when organization begins to break down and small groups begin to break off of the larger forces.

Melee can also be synonymous with fray, particularly in older works. However, it still implies disorganized combat.

Once again, the terms are interchangeable.

Kal wins on the battlefield per WoB, I believe. However, Scadrians working as a team beat everyone due to time manipulation.

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

18 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The synonymous terms brawl and melee typically refer to a small, uncontrolled fight, primarily with fists or blunt weaponry. It can refer to a fight with edged weaponry or firearms, however it never refers to organized combat. Melees occur on the battlefield when organization begins to break down and small groups begin to break off of the larger forces.

Melee can also be synonymous with fray, particularly in older works. However, it still implies disorganized combat.

Once again, the terms are interchangeable.

Kal wins on the battlefield per WoB, I believe. However, Scadrians working as a team beat everyone due to time manipulation.

Ok did you read what I said? I said MY definition not a official definition I said when I think of a brawl I think of fists and knives generally a tavern brawl as that's were it's most commonly used and I also said I think of a melee as a fight with pretty much any weapon I don't see them as synonyms I see them as similar but different things in my last reply I talked about what Brandon implied not the dictionary definition read what I said last not what I said before that goodness

[NameIess]

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Without powers, in a general melee: Vasher and Kell, per WoB. I quoted it earlier.

That WoB was from 2014. It's six years old, and might not be completely reliable anymore.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

46 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

Ok did you read what I said? I said MY definition not a official definition I said when I think of a brawl I think of fists and knives generally a tavern brawl as that's were it's most commonly used and I also said I think of a melee as a fight with pretty much any weapon I don't see them as synonyms I see them as similar but different things in my last reply I talked about what Brandon implied not the dictionary definition read what I said last not what I said before that goodness

You can’t expect people to understand your personal ideas on the words. As an author, I expect Brandon knows what the words mean. Besides, my point was that in a disorganized combat situation, weapons or no, Vasher or Kell win. In a more organized situation, Kal does.

17 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That WoB was from 2014. It's six years old, and might not be completely reliable anymore.

Until he contradicts it, it is. Besides, since then Kell has just gotten more experience, and Vasher has added some years to his already considerable number. I’d say it’s even more true; most combatants won’t have anywhere near as much experience.

[Hoid the Former Drifter he/him]

On 9/18/2020 at 3:46 PM, Valigus said:

vasher trained adolin

what?!

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

11 minutes ago, Hoid the Drifter said:

what?!

Yep Vasher is Zahel in way of kings prime he goes by Vasher still and there are a couple WoB confirming it

On 10/1/2020 at 0:10 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You can’t expect people to understand your personal ideas on the words. As an author, I expect Brandon knows what the words mean. Besides, my point was that in a disorganized combat situation, weapons or no, Vasher or Kell win. In a more organized situation, Kal does.

No but I can expect you to read what I said and the definitions actually kinda agree with me so.... But seriously the next point you make about WoB holding up until contradicted maybe nobody has asked recently to get him to contradict it? You can't debase everyone's opinions and take your own as fact, it just doesn't work

[Hoid the Former Drifter he/him]

2 minutes ago, Somebody from Sel said:

way of kings prime

keyword: prime.

didn't kaladin keep the shards in prime? wouldn't that change the entire story?

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

Just now, Hoid the Drifter said:

keyword: prime.

didn't kaladin keep the shards in prime? wouldn't that change the entire story?

Oops I accidentally forgot the but there are WoB confirming Vasher is Zahel and Azure shows up in Oathbringer Brandon has said Vasher is on Roshar because stormlight is easier to get then breaths and the connection in the spiritual realm is closer which Brandon has also said

[Fezzik]

Questioner 1

[Warbreaker] ends on, you could totally write a second one. Is that in the works?

Brandon Sanderson

It is, but it's kind of a distant plan. It's kind of just more for fun. I wrote this-- I had already written Way of Kings, and I wrote this as a prequel to Way of Kings on a different world, and then it got published before Way of Kings got published. But the characters from this were already continuity in Way of Kings, so I just kept using them, because I figured it works out. Really, Warbreaker, I see it as Vasher's (and Nightblood, the sequel), the prequel, to where he came from, who was Kaladin's swordmaster in the first version of Way of Kings back when Kaladin was training to be a Shardbearer in the first book. Vasher was a major part of that, and Warbreaker was a flashback to where he'd come from.

Questioner 2

Vasher is Zahel, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Vasher is Zahel from The Stormlight Archive. Who is still kind of the swordmaster, but he's no longer Kaladin's, it didn't work out that way. But he ends up as Renarin's instead.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)

[NameIess]

Excluding characters like TLR, Kaladin's the most dangerous on a battlefield:

Spoiler

Questioner

Who is the greatest warrior in the cosmere? I think it's Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, define "warrior" versus "soldier" versus--

Questioner

Who could win at an all-out fight? Even with powers taken away, I think he could still take on a lot of the other warriors.

Brandon Sanderson

A question. Are they on a battlefield? 'Cause Kelsier just murders him in his sleep.

Questioner

Battlefield.

Brandon Sanderson

The actual soldier, battlefield, is probably Kaladin. Problem is, you could put Dalinar in his prime. And they're both pretty good. But, Kaladin is a true soldier.

Oathbringer Edinburgh signing (Dec. 2, 2017)

The title of best assassin probably goes to Szeth (with the honorblade) or Vin. Vin's better at the stealth element, and I would guess she's got a slight edge on Szeth in the mass murder capability department, so I'll give this one to her.

Best duelist aside from the heralds is probably going to be Adolin, Vasher taught him how to use a shardblade, but I would say that Adolin would be better in a duel than him, while Vasher would beat him in a fight.

Best general is trickier. Dalinar as he is now is probably our best choice, as he's one of the few people who has actually been trained as one, plus he has decades of combat experience.

Best fighter would probably be Kelsier, I would say that a Mistborn would beat out an Awakener, although we haven't seen an Awakener really fight with Awakening yet.

Unpowered, Kaladin would still be the best warrior, Szeth would beat out Vin for the best assassin title, Adolin doesn't have powers so he'd still be top duelist, Vasher and Kelsier would be on about the same level, but I'd put Vasher on top because he has centuries of experience. Dalinar would remain the best general for the same reasons as Adolin.

 

[ElectrumSavant he/him]

Alright, here's a question: both with and without Investiture, who would win between Waxilium and Kaladin?

With Investiture- Stormlight is powerful enough that Kaladin could shrug off a few bullets, so Wax can't just kill him outright. Wax can't Push on Kaladin's shardspear because it's a heavily Invested object, but can Push on any of Kal's other metal implements (daggers, etc), meaning that it would effectively just be Kal with spheres and his shardspear against Wax with vials, metalminds, his guns, and whatever other tools he brings, like coins or his grappling hook.

Let's talk about tactics. Wax has a bit of an advantage because he can hit Kal with his guns without having to get in range of Kal's spear. However, if Kaladin can get just one solid hit in with his shardblade, Wax is dead. So the fight becomes a game of cat and mouse; Wax will probably take off immediately with Kal in close pursuit. In order for Wax to win, Wax needs to keep away from Kal for a long enough time, shooting occasionally, until Kaladin runs out of stormlight and is unable to heal himself. In order for Kaladin to win, he needs to get close enough to Wax for enough time that he can get a solid swipe in with his shardblade.

The question is: which can fly better, a Crasher or a Windrunner? Wax, with his ability to instantly change his mass, can accelerate faster than Kaladin. However, Wax is dependent on having metal to Push off of, meaning that he can't go as high into the atmosphere as Kaladin can, and he also can't make sharp turns mid-flight. Kaladin also has some advantages due to his Lashings; Adhesion is mostly useless if he can't get close enough to touch Wax (in which case he would just kill Wax with his blade), but Kaladin could use a Reverse Lashing to force bullets to fly off-target or Lash objects and make them hurtle towards Wax. Reverse Lashings probably won't be that useful against regular bullets, since Kaladin will have to be carrying whatever it is he uses the Reverse Lashing on. Basic Lashings of objects, however, could potentially be a big advantage. Even though Kaladin couldn't kill Wax with a Lashed rock, he could knock Wax out of trajectory or hit guns out of his hands. Also, Kaladin can Lash all kinds of things that Wax can't Push on.

As I think more and more about this scenario, I have more difficulty imagining Wax winning this fight. Yes, Wax has guns, but Kaladin's stormlight healing means that he could keep chasing after Wax for a long time- possibly for a longer time than Wax has bullets. And otherwise, Wax is on the defensive for this entire fight- as soon as Kal gets close enough, a quick swipe with a shardblade means that Wax is dead. Add in the fact that Kal can Lash objects and make them fly at Wax to knock him off-balance, and this fight becomes more and more one-sided. Even in places best suited for Wax, particularly dense urban environments with lots of metal to push off of, Kal's ability to change direction mid-flight means that any advantage Wax would gain in an urban environment would still likely not be enough to outmaneuver Kaladin completely. On average, I think Kaladin would beat a fight against Wax, although it would be a beautiful fight.

Without Investiture- We'll assume that Kaladin has a normal spear and a dagger. Wax has his guns. In terms of tactics, the winner all depends on timing. Wax has a few seconds to shoot Kaladin before Kaladin runs into spear range. Once Kaladin gets close enough to use his spear, Wax has basically no way to defend himself in such close quarters. Wax probably only has time for a single shot before Kaladin gets close enough. Bear in mind, Kaladin is running at a full sprint for Wax. However, Kaladin has never fought gunpowder weapons before. While it's possible the weapon will confuse him, Kaladin has a history of adapting quickly to unfamiliar weapons and tactics and so won't have an issue against an unfamiliar weapon after it is used a single time.

So, Wax has seconds to draw and fire a weapon before Kaladin reaches him. If he uses his shotgun, I can't imagine Kaladin surviving. But if he doesn't have his shotgun and instead is using a revolver, Kaladin might be able to get close enough fast enough to stab Wax with his spear even after being shot. But I think the odds definitely favor Wax without Investiture.

TL;DR  I think Kaladin would beat Waxilium with Investiture, Waxilium would beat Kaladin without. I welcome other opinions, though, if you think I underestimated something.

[Zedseayou]

On 9/19/2020 at 2:45 PM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

In a powered fight I vote Elantrian all day. Their power set is super OP.

In a non powered fight I vote Dalinar. Dalinar fought Szeth without powers and held his own while Szeth was using an honor blade. Even Adolin was blown away by the display. I’d say he is the top of the line excluding possibly some of the immortals that have trained for hundreds of years (which imo falls into the category of powers).

Without powers every Cosmere character loses to the baddest mofo ever written, Lan Mandragoran. He didn’t come here to win, he came here to kill you.

I don't know if this is confirmed but Adolin's reaction definitely made me think Dalinar was already using Stormlight in the fight with Szeth.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

On 10/17/2020 at 6:26 PM, Zedseayou said:

I don't know if this is confirmed but Adolin's reaction definitely made me think Dalinar was already using Stormlight in the fight with Szeth.

I’m not certain but I don’t think he had sworn any oaths yet.

Im also not sure how Stormlight would have made a difference. He didn’t need to heal himself and his surges don’t have any sort of enhancement effects like Kaladin’s.

Edited October 19, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I’m not certain but I don’t think he had sworn any oaths yet.

Im also not sure how Stormlight would have made a difference. He didn’t need to heal himself and his surges don’t have any sort of enhancement effects like Kaladin’s.

Tension gives more strength.

[NameIess]

3 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Im also not sure how Stormlight would have made a difference. He didn’t need to heal himself and his surges don’t have any sort of enhancement effects like Kaladin’s.

He would get the same benefits that all Radiants get from stormlight, endurance, speed, and a little strength. Those aren't dependent on order.

[Zedseayou]

10 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I’m not certain but I don’t think he had sworn any oaths yet.

Im also not sure how Stormlight would have made a difference. He didn’t need to heal himself and his surges don’t have any sort of enhancement effects like Kaladin’s.

He hadn't sworn oaths yet (he does two in a row at the top of Urithiru) but the Radiants all seem to subconsciously use Stormlight a bit even before swearing oaths. Kaladin did, and others like Ym and the Stump probably did.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

16 hours ago, Nameless said:

He would get the same benefits that all Radiants get from stormlight, endurance, speed, and a little strength. Those aren't dependent on order.

They don’t gain strength or speed. They feel invigorated but that is likely due to the healing.

 

17 hours ago, Frustration said:

Tension gives more strength.

Is there a WoB on this? I don’t recall it being in the books.

9 hours ago, Zedseayou said:

He hadn't sworn oaths yet (he does two in a row at the top of Urithiru) but the Radiants all seem to subconsciously use Stormlight a bit even before swearing oaths. Kaladin did, and others like Ym and the Stump probably did.

Hadn’t Kal sworn the first oath by the time he started using Stormlight? Ym and Stump both used surges so they had absolutely sworn oaths.

[Frustration]

29 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Is there a WoB on this? I don’t recall it being in the books.

yep

Quote

TheDanfromSpace

Could Dalinar lift stones of equivalent weight to the statue [in Thaylen City]? Assuming enough Stormlight. Or was that extra strength part of his Surges?

Brandon Sanderson

You are correct--Dalinar could not lift stones of equivalent weight in other circumstances.

General Reddit 2020 (March 5, 2020)

 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

34 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Hadn’t Kal sworn the first oath by the time he started using Stormlight? Ym and Stump both used surges so they had absolutely sworn oaths.

No, he was able to use Stormlight before he was hang out in Storm, also uncosciously right after that, but he was told about oaths after that by Teft.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

They don’t gain strength or speed. They feel invigorated but that is likely due to the healing.

Actually, it does. Kaladin is surprised when Szeth manages to dodge him, and is able to fight shardbearers with no enhancements besides stormlight. It might just be due to stormlight healing giving you infinite endurance, but it's there.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

19 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Actually, it does. Kaladin is surprised when Szeth manages to dodge him, and is able to fight shardbearers with no enhancements besides stormlight. It might just be due to stormlight healing giving you infinite endurance, but it's there.

Szeth has access to the Windrunner surges and the passive combat skill that comes with it.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Szeth has access to the Windrunner surges and the passive combat skill that comes with it.

The surges don't give you passive combat skill. Teft even talks about how stormlight doesn't grant skill.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The surges don't give you passive combat skill. Teft even talks about how stormlight doesn't grant skill.

Stormlight doesn’t, but the intersection of Adhesion and Gravitation does. I believe it’s called a resonance in the coppermind, I don’t have time to look it up at the moment.

The Lightweaver resonance is part of Shallan’s memory abilities.