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Can a fabrial fix dead Shardblades?


ZenBossanova

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Roshar has 3 magic systems, Surge Binding, Voidbinding, and Fabrials. 

Dead Shardblades have lost their connection. Brandon has explained it as similar to ripping out a USB port on a computer. If the port is ripped out, you have no way of plugging anything in. 

But, we know fabrials depends on the metals used in them. I specifically suggest Aluminum and Duralumin for Connection and possibly, Identity, could be used to create that missing "USB port". Once, that Connection has been artificially made, it will open the floodgates to both the dead spren who died during the Recreance, but also all that they knew. 

Why else is Brandon explaining the mechanics of fabrials in detail? 

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It's certainly possible, though in the past centuries/millennia there were tons of attempts to replicate shards. In fact, I'm pretty sure fabriology as a whole began as an attempt to replicate radiant powers. So I feel like their must have been countless experiments with involving fabrials and shards, so it seems unlikely something like this hasn't been tried before, though certainly not impossible. Duralumin wouldn't be a metal people just have lying around, so I suppose that could be the key like you mention, but even then it just feels narratively cheap. "All you need to bring back dead shardblades is this cool new metal", I'm just not sure that works with Brandon's style. It feels like it would be something more narratively-driven

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So for dead shard blades, there is a gem in the pommel of the blade that allows the blade to be dismissed and summoned again. What if you were able to find out what type of spren the dead blade was and somehow capture the cousin spren (that make up the plate for that particular order) in the gem? Also using the proper tyoe of gem would help. Maybe then, the dead spren would be able to somehow fuse with the companion spren and recover (not sure if oaths would still be needed or not). So if the dead blade were an honor spren, the blade would need a sapphire with a wind spren trapped inside. Maybe then you would need to take the blade to Dalinar, who does some fancy Bondsmith thing, that fuses the wind spren and the dead honor spren, using a large amount of stormlight,  to revive the dead spren into a living spren. I have no idea what the side effects would be. Perhaps you end up with surge binders, but not Radiants (so no oaths). 

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15 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

So for dead shard blades, there is a gem in the pommel of the blade that allows the blade to be dismissed and summoned again. What if you were able to find out what type of spren the dead blade was and somehow capture the cousin spren (that make up the plate for that particular order) in the gem? Also using the proper tyoe of gem would help. Maybe then, the dead spren would be able to somehow fuse with the companion spren and recover (not sure if oaths would still be needed or not). So if the dead blade were an honor spren, the blade would need a sapphire with a wind spren trapped inside.

Unfortunatelly, type of Gem is not directly dependent on type Blades Order - Oathbringer is Stoneward Blade so should have Topaz as Gem, but has Heliodor.

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2 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Unfortunatelly, type of Gem is not directly dependent on type Blades Order - Oathbringer is Stoneward Blade so should have Topaz as Gem, but has Heliodor.

So, that is true. Dismissin and summoning the blade is not dependent on the type of gem. But would havign the proper gem be of any help? Much like the argument could be made, it doesn't matter who wields a dead shard blade, but we see with Dalinar and Adohlin that the blades somehow remember them and hate them less. Would the right gem, be another step to healing. Help the dead eye spren in some way (would having stormlight in the gem help? Good memory by the way on the gem in Oathbringer. I'd love a chapter recounting everything Adohlin has tried to help Maya

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I suspect it has to be a combination of things. If it were "just" a mechanical fabrial that heals shardblades, then spren wouldn't be so angry at all the murders, they would have bonded someone a long time ago to give them instructions on how to build this "Resurrection fabrial". And would be anticlimactic anyway.

If it were just a matter of treating the sword well, well, I'm sure there've been plenty of shardholders over the centuries that really took good care of their blades. Didn't do anything for those spren.

So I think it's all the above. Adolin has to bond and swear the right oaths to this dead spren. Then that has to be combined with some realmatic magic stuff, maybe from a Bondsmith or maybe from the appropriate fabrial (or both!)

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Just had another thought on this, and perhaps the Heralds can help. Nale uses a healing fabrial on Seth at the end of Words of Radiants, essential resurrecting him from the dead before his soul completely detaches, thus restoring him. Can the same type of Fabrial be used on a shardblade in conjunction with an open perpendicularity? My thought is that time is not relevant to spren the same way it is to humans. The dead eye spren/shardblades have been locked in that form since their Knights betrayed them and thus time lost its relevance, so whether 30 seconds or 4,000 years have passed doesn't really matter to them. These dead eyes could be much like Seth after Kaladin killed him. They just need to be brought back to a state right before the breaking of the oaths. 

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7 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Just had another thought on this, and perhaps the Heralds can help. Nale uses a healing fabrial on Seth at the end of Words of Radiants, essential resurrecting him from the dead before his soul completely detaches, thus restoring him. Can the same type of Fabrial be used on a shardblade in conjunction with an open perpendicularity? My thought is that time is not relevant to spren the same way it is to humans. The dead eye spren/shardblades have been locked in that form since their Knights betrayed them and thus time lost its relevance, so whether 30 seconds or 4,000 years have passed doesn't really matter to them. These dead eyes could be much like Seth after Kaladin killed him. They just need to be brought back to a state right before the breaking of the oaths. 

I don't think it would be the same kind. The way Szeth's resurrection worked was different.

Spoilers for Mistborn: Secret History:

Spoiler

In the cosmere, after someone's physical body dies, they go to the cognitive realm and become a cognitive shadow, which then gets drawn into the Beyond. The more Invested someone is the longer that'll take, though it takes something special to really persist a long time. What Nale's fabrial did is it took Szeth's cognitive shadow form and pulled it back into the physical realm and stuck it back onto his body, "resurrecting" him.

In cosmere terms, that really doesn't have much to do with how dead spren work, I think.

Spoiler

The spren aren't cognitive shadows that need to be pulled back and stuck onto a physical body; they're fine existing in the cognitive realm, but they've had pieces of their cognitive self ripped out. The same sort of process that healed Szeth just... wouldn't do anything for the Spren. Like trying to give CPR to someone who died of being stabbed in the heart - it's just the wrong approach, it's not that you need to do it with more force, you're just doing the wrong thing.

 

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Keep in mind that Brandon’s analogy wasn’t ripping out a USB port from a computer- it was tearing out a headjack brain implant from someone’s head. Far more visceral and violent.

Quote

Jerich

Is the Hoed from Elantris similar to the state of [dead] Shardblades? If so is it possible to awaken a Shardblade if the bearer speaks the oaths of the Knights Radiant?

Brandon Sanderson

The status is... I would say not as similar as you're probably thinking, but it does have a similarity in that two bacteria causing a disease are both caused by a bacteria, so there is a similarity there.

I can imagine a sequence where a Shardblade would be reawakened, but I think it would be very difficult.

It's not the same that they're in the middle of a transition, like in Elantris.

Jerich

Oh, okay. So you have to actually... it'd be harder.

Brandon Sanderson

It'd be harder, yeah. It's not the same, they're not in the middle of a transition. They have had something ripped from them, and it's very painful and it's left them mostly mindless.

Jerich

So they have to have that something added back?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. So what you've got going on: the spren gain-- the bond lets them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them-- imagine... (this is a very bad metaphor, it's the first one coming to my head though): imagine you had wetware, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. 

Jerich

*stunned/horrified*

Oh.

Brandon Sanderson

Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that's what's happened, a piece of their soul's been ripped off.

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

 

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17 hours ago, Master Silver said:

The only upside to the headjack analogy is that it might mean the head jack/part of the brain or memory of the spren is lying around somewhere. So you would need to find it and have a brain surgeon/software engineer or programmer plug it back in

I think it would require Dalinar.

the parts of the Spren’s soul that were ripped out, were presumably still in the Humans soul(thats why brandon said it would be Really hard to revive a dead spren without its original Radiant) and unless some of those radiants became immortal, theyll be long dead by now.

but an imprint of a Spiriweb can remain in the Spiritual Realm long after death.

so maybe Dalinar or someone who has the power to mess with Connection and Spiritwebs(not many other people)

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My guess as to what the full process would have to be:

1) Someone (Adolin) would have to bond the blade, and say the oaths to become an Edgedancer (maybe of the same level that the oathbreaker Radiant was). They would have to do this without the support/help of an actual spren, since they'd be bonding a dead blade instead of a living spren. So, pretty tough, and possibly no power boosts for this because there's no real bond yet.

2) Then Dalinar (or another Bondsmith) would have to apply their powers to make that bond replace the original one, healing the spren.

So, this is pretty hard. Living by several levels of Radiant oaths is hard enough for people when they've got a spren urging them along and powerups for doing so, and it's harder when you have to do it just because you think it's right. And then it takes intervention by one of at most three Bondsmiths in all of Roshar. So, yeah, in the abstract it's pretty tough, though if this really is the case then Adolin's in a position to go down that path. 

Edited by ftl
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/6/2020 at 9:42 AM, Master Silver said:

The only upside to the headjack analogy is that it might mean the head jack/part of the brain or memory of the spren is lying around somewhere. So you would need to find it and have a brain surgeon/software engineer or programmer plug it back in

Unfortunately with how the spirit webs of the radiant and the spren becomes intermeshed, that "portion of the brain" is still attached to the knight. The knight that died and "went to the beyond". So it might not be around anymore at all

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On 9/27/2020 at 2:14 PM, Pathfinder said:

Unfortunately with how the spirit webs of the radiant and the spren becomes intermeshed, that "portion of the brain" is still attached to the knight. The knight that died and "went to the beyond". So it might not be around anymore at all

Is it possible since......OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH here comes a new thoguht.... Navani is starting to develop some sort of bond we think, and she could sorta see what Dalinar was doing when he connects the realms, physical, cognitive, and spiritual, is it possible that Navani (if she bonds the sibling)+ Dalinar would be able to draw that part of the spren's spirit web back from the spiritual realm from the knight?

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22 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Is it possible since......OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH here comes a new thoguht.... Navani is starting to develop some sort of bond we think, and she could sorta see what Dalinar was doing when he connects the realms, physical, cognitive, and spiritual, is it possible that Navani (if she bonds the sibling)+ Dalinar would be able to draw that part of the spren's spirit web back from the spiritual realm from the knight?

This is more feasible than it may sound at first glance; it's been confirmed (at least by WoB) that "spiritual corpses" are a thing; the remnants of a dead being's Spiritweb in the spiritual realm. So you could probably try to fish around in there and grab those remnants and... "plug it back in" to the deadeye spren.

Now the challenge seems to be finding the right needle in the needlestack for each deadeye spren.

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Imagine what a boon and advantage it would be to the radiants, if they even were able to heal 20 deadeye spren (assuming the spren, being bits of power are sane, and retain their memories). In some ways, Syl might be the patter of what happens. She still hasn't fully recovered all of her memories, but with each oath she seems to remember more. 

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On 10/1/2020 at 5:26 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

This is more feasible than it may sound at first glance; it's been confirmed (at least by WoB) that "spiritual corpses" are a thing; the remnants of a dead being's Spiritweb in the spiritual realm.

It has? I haven't seen this before, do you have a link handy?

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7 minutes ago, beewall said:

It has? I haven't seen this before, do you have a link handy?

Here ya go.

Quote

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

Oversleep

Wait wait wait. If there is a "corpse" of Spiritweb (so to speak) and actual, physical corpse is also there... Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy? Could it be still viable for Hemalurgy if you really know what you're doing and have some useful powers (manipulating Connection comes to mind)?

Could you patch the remnants of the Spiritweb and staple it to the body and end up with some zombie-zombie Lifeless? You'd still need to give it a mind but I figure Awakening is just doing that?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

 

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Given all of that, I suppose a good question is how invested are Radiants of the Fifth ideal?

*Spoilers* follow

Spoiler

In Mistborn, A Secret History Kelsiar does not fade to the spiritual realm immediately because he is invested, and then because he dips in the well of ascension. Radiants are also invested. Not as heavily as a Sliver of course, but I think their spirits somehow get invested because the Radiant spren fill the cracks. This might me they would fade in the spiritual realm far more slowly, especially if time becomes more relative. 

 

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4 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Given all of that, I suppose a good question is how invested are Radiants of the Fifth ideal?

*Spoilers* follow

  Hide contents

In Mistborn, A Secret History Kelsiar does not fade to the spiritual realm immediately because he is invested, and then because he dips in the well of ascension. Radiants are also invested. Not as heavily as a Sliver of course, but I think their spirits somehow get invested because the Radiant spren fill the cracks. This might me they would fade in the spiritual realm far more slowly, especially if time becomes more relative. 

 

I suppose also the question is how invested are Radiants who break their bond late in their Ideals... since they're tearing off part of the Spren and taking it with them, basically.

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