RoW Chapter 7 Discussion

[Karger]

I am glad we are finally tracking those two down.  They have been teased since forever.  I also wonder if for the first time we will see the cosmere unveiled in a major series.  Will team Radiant all know about Nalthis by the end of RoW?  I am really hopping for a yes.  Perhaps this will make them more inclined to take the options of mutually assured destruction.  It is OK if Roshar dies if Odium dies as well.  Odium can't afford that kind of escalation but some members of team radiant can.

1 minute ago, Innovation said:

They are called the Sons of Honor, and not the Sons of the Almighty. I can imagine the leaders of the SoH are more knowledgeable than the typical members.  

That does not mean much.  Plenty of people call Tanavast Honor on Roshar.  Even uneducated ones.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Karger

[GudThymes]

2 minutes ago, Innovation said:

They are called the Sons of Honor, and not the Sons of the Almighty.

People refer to Cultivation by name on Roshar at times, but that doesn't mean they have realmatic knowledge. The way they're discussed in the books it has always felt that the SoH are way behind when it comes to this stuff as compared to some of the other secret societies. Even the Diagram's realmatic awareness is incredibly limited.

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

I don't think Pattern provides an objective source of truth to Shallan. I'm currently on my OB reread and just read the section where Shallan takes on Re-Shepir, and prior to that encounter Shallan flips through her notebook and finds a lot of disturbing images. She asks Pattern when she drew them and he responds with "I don't know". I'm stewing on a theory that Shallan's DID plays a role with her Nahel bond, and that as Pattern integrates more fully into Shallan's spirit web it means the power he provides to Shallan may be less accessible to the alters (or vice versa as we see with Radiant + Blade).

Quote

“My brothers. Pattern, I didn’t kill them, right? … I talked to Balat over spanreed. But… I had Lightweaving then… even if I didn’t fully know it. I could have fabricated that. Every message from him. My own memories….”

“Shallan,” Pattern said, sounding concerned. “No. They live.” … His voice grew smaller. “Can’t you tell?”

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Karger

[The Ryshadium]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

I doubt it.  I am fairly sure duralumin enhances connection.  In the case of allomancy this is connection to Preservation so you get a boost to the speed of your powers.  In terms of fabrail science it might be useful to coordinate between several different ones or for things like translation but I don't think it will just enhance things for free.  Brandon never does stuff like that.

Eh, you're probably right. It was a spur of the moment theory which I didn't put much thought into.

[GudThymes]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Quote

“My brothers. Pattern, I didn’t kill them, right? … I talked to Balat over spanreed. But… I had Lightweaving then… even if I didn’t fully know it. I could have fabricated that. Every message from him. My own memories….”

“Shallan,” Pattern said, sounding concerned. “No. They live.” … His voice grew smaller. “Can’t you tell?”

 

I don't think one example of Pattern remembering for her is enough though. Here's the excerpt I was talking about from Chapter 27 in OB

Quote

Absently turning a page, she came across a sketch she didn't recall making. A series of twisting, maddening lines, scribbled and un-connected.

She felt col. "When did I draw this?"

Pattern moved up her dress, stopping around her neck. He hummed, an uncomfortable sound. "I do not remember."

There could be other reasons for why Pattern didn't remember (he might have been off somewhere else like Syl does from time to time). However, I think there's a lot we don't know about how Shallan and Pattern work specifically, so I'm not confident saying that Pattern is a source of truth. He can be, I think he is more likely to distinguish between the lies that Shallan struggles with. But he isn't foolproof.

[Solant]

52 minutes ago, Karger said:

I also wonder if for the first time we will see the cosmere unveiled in a major series.

+1 for unintentional Shallan pun

[Karger]

45 minutes ago, GudThymes said:

But he isn't foolproof.

Nothing really is but having someone who she has trouble fooling has been important to Shallan's development.

[Goatbringer]

12 hours ago, Rainier said:

Your last point, however, is what makes me think this isn't Allomancy. Allomancy is burning metal to unleash their powers. Feruchemy is building things with metals to use their powers. Hemalurgy is embedding metal spikes in people to adjust their powers.

If anything, fabrials are more like Feruchemy than Allomancy, as they're built items that interact with investiture. However, I don't think it makes any sense to call it Feruchemy either, I think it's just the properties of metals in the Cosmere. Different metals react to investiture in different ways. You need to combine that with the source of the investiture, in this case the shards. Without Preservation and Ruin, I don't think you can call it either Allomancy or Feruchemy.

Although, I would expect copper, steel, pewter, etc. to have some kind of interaction with other forms of investiture in other systems. I'd want to see how it interacts with Breaths, and how it interacts with the Dor, and so on. But I wouldn't call any and all interaction between metals and investiture Allomancy because, again, we already have two other forms of metal-magic. What's one more?

So even though this isn't strictly following the rules of the Metallic Arts, the metals are still mimicking their basic properties in another Shard system - couldn't this mean that the properties of these metals are intrinsic across all Shardic systems? Maybe they were given the basic properties by Adonalsium across all systems and it was refined and expanded upon on Scadrial by our boys Ruin and Preservation. 

[+robardin]

13 hours ago, Czernobog said:

I keyed in on that as well. In Oathbringer, Adolin not only got Maya to tell him her name, but also pled with her to manifest after only 7 heartbeats, and she complied.

A gradual path to full restoration, hopefully culminating at Lasting Integrity with the leaders of the Honorspren witnessing it. 

Not to mention what looked suspiciously like unconscious, low-level Stormlight healing when Adolin dug himself out from under a collapsed building covered in dust, with just some pain that didn't prevent him from standing. And warning him of an incoming Fused behind him (meaning she has also got a tie to the Phyiscal Realm even when not summoned as a Blade).

I don't think her full restoration and a Nahel bond with Adolin is necessarily the arc here - for one, it seems too obvious - nor do I think Lasting Integrity would come into the the picture (Mayalaran is/was a cultivationspren, not an honorspren), but at the very least, a semi-revived Shardblade with a deeper-than-gem bond with her bearer would make for good reading.

Even more interesting would be if reviving a dead spren meant Maya was free to bond someone as a cultivationspren... other than Adolin. And Adolin becomes a "Blade Whisperer" who has some kind of talent in reawakening deadeye Blades. LOL. (Not really serious, but that actually would be an interesting direction to go in)

[+Czernobog]

Yes, Maya is Cultivationspren.

In earlier chapters, Khaladin mentions there not being enough Honorspren willing to bond candidates. There is a new Amazon blurb that Shallan and Adolin have a mission in Shadesmar to try to convince the Honorspren to fully commit and join them in the fight.

I think it would be very convincing for the Honorspren leaders to witness the full restoration of any form of Radiant spren carried out by someone other than the human that originally killed them.

[+Bliev]

23 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Shallan is so good at lying to herself that she doesn't even know if it was her who poisoned Ialai. She hides it well but now it's clear that she's way worse than a year ago.

The fight with Kaladin was hilarious. Making assumptions about the enemy is dangerous, you would think after so many Desolations they would know that.

This book is shaping up to have a lot of science involved. I can't wait to see all the details. More on Voidlight too.

I disagree with Shallan being "worse" let alone "way worse". She has control over her alters, they are working together, they are aware of each other and cooperative. Now, if it turns out she has a 4th alter, then...but I don't think she does. I think Pattern would know she has another alter, and she'd have a black out moment of no memory. I think she's low in confidence and hyper anxious, particularly the Shallan alter, so she might be paranoid about it, but I think it more likely that either Ialai poisoned herself with the last wine (likely) in anticipation of the assassination, or that there's a blow-gun assassin (Mraize likes his Parshendi blow darts, remember?) around in the shadows that the Ghostbloods recruited to ensure success.

[KidWayne]

Warning! General Cosmere Spoilers abound in this post. 

23 hours ago, The Ryshadium said:

I disagree. No metals are being burned here. Also, spren are not emotions. They might be manifestations of ideas, but that doesn’t mean they ARE those ideas. Someone can be angry without attracting a spren. Spren are separate from emotions. It doesn’t make sense to me that this would be allomancy. Metals only provide allomantic abilities when burned. It is related, but not allomancy. 

Interesting... This makes me curious what allomancy's relation is to investiture in general and how that might relate to the effect that allomantic metals have with investiture coming from sources other than Preservation. 

Brandon has said in the past that - when burned - the matrix (crystalline structure) of the metals acts as a kind of filter or a key for the investiture to be expressed. This operates similar to the way nahel bond with a spren acts as a kind of key to unlock the use of a pair of the various surges.

The thing that has always tripped me up about allomancy is where is the investiture? On Taldain the sand is invested by the sun and (I think) water is used to enable sand mastery. On Nalthis, breath carries investiture and words are used to unlock the powers. On Sel, the Seons carry investiture and the Aons are used to express/unlock supernatural abilities. Roshar and Sel are pretty similar; on Roshar stormlight is invested, and a nahel bond with a spren works to  express/unlock the surges. So if the metal itself is not invested on Scadrial (but is instead the means by which allomancy is expressed), then I can only assume that Scadrians have some kind of innate investiture (which is - in my head cannon - similar to Nalthian Breath, except that it isn't transferable).

This is supported by the concept of Lerasium which can bestow the necessary investiture to someone who does not already possess it. The Coppermind's article on Allomancy is all about how the metals function as "a conduit" to "connect" the allomancer to Preservation. However, if there was no internal investiture then the poorly understood concept of Connection is all we have to explain why everyone (or at least every Scadrian) can't swallow metal and use allomancy as if they were Mistborn. However, the term "Mistborn" contains a clue... In Scadrial's Cognitive realm, the living are represented as mist and metal glows. Whereas on Roshar the living are represented as glass beads. This suggests that the mists on Scadrial contain investiture which is just plain odd, but may facilitate the process of investing allomancers in a similar (albeit a slower and less direct method) way that Surgebinders on Roshar breathe in investiture/stormlight. 

So, all that is to say that Mental Allomantic metals should have an effect on spren - the occasionally invested manifestations of ideas and inhabitants of Roshar's cognitive realm. Fabrials require a gem invested with stormlight, a spren, and some kind of metal to regulate the effects caused by capturing a spren in an invested gem. Here the spren is functioning as a substitute for a magic user while the metals are filtering the magic by affecting the magic user (much like the voidlight fabrial affected Kaladin, Lift, and Godeke). The metals act as an extra filter that affects the spren. The metal is not being consumed because it is not functioning to access and release investiture; it is only being used to filter magic (i.e. the effect caused by the expression/release of investiture). 

So I agree with you. Allomancy on Roshar would not result in the manipulation of spren; allomancy connects one to Preservation's investiture (or draws on a Scadrian's innate investiture) and when metal is burned it flows through the atomic structure of the allomantic metals to produce an effect.

EDIT: I just found Karger's post and I think it is an accurate way of explaining what I'm trying to say. The only question I have is this: Why is the metal consumed when used in conjuction with Preservation but not with other sources like stormlight?

19 hours ago, Karger said:

I think it is more accurate to look at things the other way around.  Think of an allomancer as a fabrail with Preservation as the spren.

My take away is that various metals have an effect on every kind of investuiture. They are a unique focus which are most directly expressed through the Scadrian metallic arts. Silver - while not allomantic - has an effect on Threnody.  I'm not sure how allomantic metals would affect the less physical and more abstract magic systems. I suppose you could make Aons out of metal, but I'm not sure how metal would come into play on Nalthis (maybe as they grow technologically, the metals used in equipment to record audio might have an effect? Not sure if this would work because of the intent requirement though). We just don't know enough about Taldainian magic to say much about it (would water with trace allomantic metals have subtle effects on sand mastery?). 

Edited August 19, 2020 by KidWayne

[Eluvianii]

2 hours ago, Bliev said:

I disagree with Shallan being "worse" let alone "way worse". She has control over her alters, they are working together, they are aware of each other and cooperative. Now, if it turns out she has a 4th alter, then...but I don't think she does. I think Pattern would know she has another alter, and she'd have a black out moment of no memory. I think she's low in confidence and hyper anxious, particularly the Shallan alter, so she might be paranoid about it, but I think it more likely that either Ialai poisoned herself with the last wine (likely) in anticipation of the assassination, or that there's a blow-gun assassin (Mraize likes his Parshendi blow darts, remember?) around in the shadows that the Ghostbloods recruited to ensure success.

She's in a comfortable spot, which by no means equals a good spot. Her personas are in agreement and work with each other instead of fighting, which is an improvement from Oathbringer but that is more of a practical improvement than a mental one. She doesn't cause trouble to others this way but the issue is still there, and instead of facing it she turned it into her new normal state. Instead of trying to treat her illness she's just living with it and pretending nothing's wrong. And the deal with Ialai, whether it was actually Shallan who killed her or not is irrelevant here. The fact that she has to ask herself if it really wasn't her who did it is the worrying part, she can't trust her own short-term memory anymore, that's not what I would call having things under control. I don't really think there's a fourth persona but having her personality split in three parts is bad enough as it is and she should aknowledge that it's a bad thing instead of just rolling with it.

And of course in the future things are likely to just fall apart. She doesn't trust herself and she's getting paranoid of others too. This won't lead anywhere good. It wouldn't surprise me if she falls a good chunk deeper in this book than in OB.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Eluvianii

[+Bliev]

29 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

She doesn't cause trouble to others this way but the issue is still there, and instead of facing it she turned it into her new normal state. Instead of trying to treat her illness she's just living with it and pretending nothing's wrong. 

That's the thing, though--with DID, it's not likely she'll ever look "typical" mentally. Living with it, functioning with it--that's what "well" will look like, in most cases. She is stabilized. And yet still insecure and anxious and not "well" yet. But she is not having blackout moments anymore where she can't remember (like when she wonders when she drew something), she is not out of control. Yet, she's still haunted by her trauma. She has a ways to go magically, and mentally. But I don't think she's worse off than OB, nor do I think she'll lose control quite like she did in OB. 

Asking herself if it was really her seems to align with Shallan's insecurities and anxieties to me--the self gaslighting. "Wait, what if I'm losing it again!" But what's an improvement, to my mind, is that she doesn't run from it or deny it like she often did in WOR and in OB. She tried to figure it out logically. She acknowledged her uncertainty. And her paranoia of others in this case? TOTALLY WARRANTED, imho. Someone killed Ialai. So who? She ruled herself out, without spiraling into self doubt. And the potential threat led her to focus more on her task, which is a good thing too. Seems like she's doing well with Adolin--he asks who he's talking to, she responds, they're a team, etc.

I agree that the journey toward her next "truth" will surely be a task. And she may struggle. But I don't think that she's nearly in as bad of shape as she was during 90% of OB nor in the denial she was in in WOK and WOR. To me, that's improvement. 

[DeployParachute]

32 minutes ago, Bliev said:

That's the thing, though--with DID, it's not likely she'll ever look "typical" mentally. Living with it, functioning with it--that's what "well" will look like, in most cases.

1. Citation needed? Are you a researcher in the field? A medical professional with experience treating this disorder? Do you have a published peer review journal that documents that most cases end without learning to live with the disorder rather than recovery? How are you so confidently able to quantify the percentage of people who end up learning to live in a stable balance with their alters as opposed to those who are able to successfully integrate? I'm genuinely curious, is there data somewhere?

2. The DSM outlines reintegration as a common and achievable goal for DID treatment: https://www.healthyplace.com/abuse/dissociative-identity-disorder/dissociative-identity-disorder-did-treatment-challenging . I'm not an expert, just somebody doing some rough googling, and of course the site is only as good as its citations. However here is some verbiage that is probably of most interest to this particular conversation:

Quote

As to whether dissociative identity disorder can be cured varies according to the individual and the individual's definition of the word "cured." Some people with DID are looking for ways to manage their alters in what they consider to be a healthy way and are reluctant to reconnect all their separate identities because they help the person to cope with life's difficulties and traumatic memories. For others, integrating all personalities into one healthy identity is what they are looking for. Each of these states can be attained with DID treatment but it can be a painstaking process.

3. Even if some, or even MOST people with DID never fully integrate as part of treatment/recovery, does not exclude the possibility that integration is what Brandon intends for Shallan. Same goes for working through any other mental health disorder, no goal of treatment should be taken off of the table just because of its statistical unlikeliness. Seems to me that the literature suggests that so long as the patient is willing, a state of re-integration should be pursued.

4. Brandon has said during the current serialization of these chapters that the plan for Shallan's immediate future is that of a "downward spiral". We know she is going to get worse. She may have found a balance that has suited her for the past year, however that does not mean that it is working for those close to her (Adolin, etc), or that she will continue maintain balance as she faces more challenges in the narrative. 

Ultimately, it's all too early to tell how this downward spiral is going to play out, or who is going to be involved in it. However we shouldn't be so quick to rule anything out. 

[Eternal Khol]

On 8/18/2020 at 8:01 AM, Gilphon said:

But the idea that allomancy is just that easy if you have a source of investiture... that's huge.

its not “Allomancy” any more than the aviar on First of The Sun are using “Allomancy” to hide peoples thoughts.

There’s just certain natural pathways that exist and make it possible.(and those pathways Also exist on different planets)

its not that much of a shock, that some of the same mechanics pervade the Cosmere.

Leras didnt just go “haha, im just randomly gonna make a magic system with metals as the key and provide different powers”

he had to already know that Allomancy was one of the possibilities, in which his magic could manifest(Allomancy isnt the only way Preservations power could’ve manifested on Scadrial) and that those metals would have cosmere wide interactions

so the fabrial metals doing different Allomancy-like  things and coppercloud-like Aviar aren’t based off Allomancy. Meaning someone didnt go “oh i like that ability to hide investiture pulses in Allomancy, i think ill put that in a chicken”

Allomancy was just one of many possible magics, Preservation could’ve had on Scadrial.

Anytime we see something like Allomancy, it doesn't mean it is Allomancy. Allomancy is based off pretty much the same interactions that Coppercloud aviar and Fabrial zinc and brass have.

in other words, the latter aren’t based off the former. All 3(allomancy, aviar, and fabrial metals) are just an outgrowth of the (almost) same cosmere-wide interactions, but each planet probably has its own little tweaks due to different interactions

 

 

On 8/18/2020 at 8:01 AM, Gilphon said:

But- if the Allomantic properties are just what the metal naturally does when exposed to investiture,

Thats just what we’ve seen Roshar and Scadrial do.

there could be planets with different realmatic interactions, that do something along the lines of Feruchemy

Or it could not involve metal at all.

 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Innovation]

I really don’t think Allomancy ties as much into Fabrials as people think. We know of two metals that have some Allomantic-like effects, and they only work on Spren trapped inside gemstones. Just because we have seen two metals the are similar to Allomancy doesn’t mean all of them are. 

[+Bliev]

@DeployParachute I am not a clinical psychologist, though I am a published academic in psychology. However, I concede that the use of the word most may be not useful (though the cursory research I did on the topic back in my undergrad psych days and since suggest that unification/integration is rare among patients, it may indeed be a more common goal for patients even if they are unable to achieve it). Regardless, I have not seen Brandon's specification that he was characterizing her as being in a downward spiral, so I will absolutely concede that point and that we shouldn't rule anything out. Thanks for sharing that.

My only point was thus: I don't think she's worse off than in OB at this moment based on the early chapters. Regardless of whether Brandon intends to take her down that same OB road remains to be seen, but I think she's in a much better position than she was in throughout the last book. I also want us to challenge ourselves when we see these characters to not desire or expect "typicality" in their mental states. Brandon has said repeatedly that he is leaning into real-world mental illnesses (depression, DID), and many readers live with those issues every day and will for the rest of their lives. 

 

 

[Eternal Khol]

2 hours ago, Bliev said:

but I think she's in a much better position than she was in throughout the last book

She didn’t even know whether she was the one to kill Ialai or not, that doesn seem a whole lot better to me

Edited August 19, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Master Silver]

I know the Shallan stuff is what is new to us in chapter 7. But upon re-reading the Kaladin stuff. I found it super interesting that although the new fabrial suppressed his surge binding and Syl couldn't turn into a shard blade. It didn't effect his internal stormlight nor the winds. Here is the thing though, if it suppressed a shard blade (Syl-blade) wouldn't it suppress armor? Could this be a sort of Easter Egg verification of something more/special with Kaladin? Others have said this, but I think when people say the winds know him, and also calling him Stormblessed, something more is going on. Or there is something about the fourth ideal that transcends fabrial technology. 

Will we really have to wait till chapter 9 for more on Kaladin's story arc?  

[DeployParachute]

4 hours ago, Bliev said:

@DeployParachute I am not a clinical psychologist, though I am a published academic in psychology. However, I concede that the use of the word most may be not useful (though the cursory research I did on the topic back in my undergrad psych days and since suggest that unification/integration is rare among patients, it may indeed be a more common goal for patients even if they are unable to achieve it). Regardless, I have not seen Brandon's specification that he was characterizing her as being in a downward spiral, so I will absolutely concede that point and that we shouldn't rule anything out. Thanks for sharing that.

Ah, sorry, I made the assumption that this particular information from Brandon had become common knowledge, but realize that that might have been a bit presumptuous. It was in a RoW chapter annotation. Here is the shard post that alerted me to it:

And the direct reddit link to the annotation post by u/mistborn

Quote

Regardless of whether Brandon intends to take her down that same OB road remains to be seen, but I think she's in a much better position than she was in throughout the last book. I also want us to challenge ourselves when we see these characters to not desire or expect "typicality" in their mental states. Brandon has said repeatedly that he is leaning into real-world mental illnesses (depression, DID), and many readers live with those issues every day and will for the rest of their lives. 

I broadly agree with you here. I think from a clinical perspective, from what I've read (which is subject to extreme limitations and lack of expertise on my part), progression of treatment for DID can be distilled down to 

• Stabilization
• Address Trauma
• Re-integration

With the knowledge that not everyone diagnosed will reach each level, successfully, and may settle on one stage of treatment indefinitely. I believe that at the end of OB, Shallan probably had a pretty good grasp on Stabilization, and probably has done so for the past year. In that regard, stabilizing at 3 alters rather than what was happening to her at the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Thaylen Field is definitely an improvement. So agreement there as well. But I think the chapters so far indicates that Shallan has not moved on to progression 2, and without that, it would make sense to me that her Stabilization is at severe risk.

Edited August 20, 2020 by DeployParachute
adding context and quote I forgot to copy/paste before submitting

[Caesura]

Quote

Kaladin hadn’t seen Lift sneak into the room—but then again, she often showed up where one did not expect her.

I recall speculation on an earlier chapter about the Mink being a (proto-)Edgedancer - this bit to me parallels quite nicely with his ability to sneak out of places unnoticed.

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Could this be a sort of Easter Egg verification of something more/special with Kaladin? Others have said this, but I think when people say the winds know him, and also calling him Stormblessed, something more is going on.

I think it's likely there's something to this. The other bit that backs this up the best for me is when he stops the wind early in Oathbringer: 

Quote

A hundred windspren spun in as lines of light, twisting around his arm, wrapping it like ribbons. They surged with Light, then exploded outward in a blinding sheet, sweeping to Kaladin’s sides and parting the winds around him.

Kaladin stood with his hand toward the tempest, and deflected it. Like a stone in a swift-moving river stopped the waters, he opened a pocket in the storm, creating a calm wake behind him.

Maybe this is just a creative use of early Shardplate, but he's not even close to swearing the 4th Ideal here. 

[Chana]

When I first read the chapter it was obvious to me that Ialai poisoned herself, there was so much focus on her drinking the wines and making Shallan drink them and then drinking the last one alone (right after literally calling it deadly) and I was very surprised Shallan didn't think of that. But I love the idea of Shallan unknowingly Soulcasting her blood - though she didn't have much experience with it, a year has passed and Jasnah did say in OB they need to train it so it's not that far fetched she's alright at it. Though I feel then it would be mentioned in passing earlier to forshadow it or something. While Isnah would be a likely candidate for GB spy - having her say that she knows a thing or two about poisons literally right after poisoning someone is a bit on the nose. And then since Shallan made her look for clues, we wouldn't get full picture of the situation and it'd be just annoying. It still is a possibility but I don't want that to happen. 

It would be fun if it turned out that multiple people killed Ialai at the same time. As in, she drank poison herself cause she was trying to escape a possibly more painful death Restares/Mraize might give her - she was sure she's going to die anyway. And the Shallan added more poison to her blood cause Veil wanted to/the fourth persona did it. And on top of that GB poisoned her when she was restrained. 

I also find it surprising Mraize keeps giving her assignments that align with what Dalinar wants, like I get the idea at the beginning to kinda lure her in, telling her to do stuff she would do anyway but it's been ages, you'd think by know she would get like a proper assignment.

As for her going on a downward spiral I really hope it doesn't affect her relationship with Adolin too much. My boy deserves some happiness. It might be wishful thinking but after all not all mental problems have to put a strain on a relationship, depends on the nature of the problem and if she's going to struggle mostly with her past and things like that, he might be actually very helpful with that and provide support - probably not but a girl can dream

[bdoble97]

5 hours ago, Chana said:

When I first read the chapter it was obvious to me that Ialai poisoned herself, there was so much focus on her drinking the wines and making Shallan drink them and then drinking the last one alone (right after literally calling it deadly) and I was very surprised Shallan didn't think of that. But I love the idea of Shallan unknowingly Soulcasting her blood - though she didn't have much experience with it, a year has passed and Jasnah did say in OB they need to train it so it's not that far fetched she's alright at it. Though I feel then it would be mentioned in passing earlier to forshadow it or something. While Isnah would be a likely candidate for GB spy - having her say that she knows a thing or two about poisons literally right after poisoning someone is a bit on the nose. And then since Shallan made her look for clues, we wouldn't get full picture of the situation and it'd be just annoying. It still is a possibility but I don't want that to happen. 

It would be fun if it turned out that multiple people killed Ialai at the same time. As in, she drank poison herself cause she was trying to escape a possibly more painful death Restares/Mraize might give her - she was sure she's going to die anyway. And the Shallan added more poison to her blood cause Veil wanted to/the fourth persona did it. And on top of that GB poisoned her when she was restrained. 

I also find it surprising Mraize keeps giving her assignments that align with what Dalinar wants, like I get the idea at the beginning to kinda lure her in, telling her to do stuff she would do anyway but it's been ages, you'd think by know she would get like a proper assignment.

As for her going on a downward spiral I really hope it doesn't affect her relationship with Adolin too much. My boy deserves some happiness. It might be wishful thinking but after all not all mental problems have to put a strain on a relationship, depends on the nature of the problem and if she's going to struggle mostly with her past and things like that, he might be actually very helpful with that and provide support - probably not but a girl can dream

What if the the Ghostbloods are all other personalitys of Shallan and that's why the mission have been inline with Dalinars. 

Adolin will stay with her no matter what happens in my opinion. I thi k they will be going on a epic adventure due to the cover. 

 

5 hours ago, Chana said:

When I first read the chapter it was obvious to me that Ialai poisoned herself, there was so much focus on her drinking the wines and making Shallan drink them and then drinking the last one alone (right after literally calling it deadly) and I was very surprised Shallan didn't think of that. But I love the idea of Shallan unknowingly Soulcasting her blood - though she didn't have much experience with it, a year has passed and Jasnah did say in OB they need to train it so it's not that far fetched she's alright at it. Though I feel then it would be mentioned in passing earlier to forshadow it or something. While Isnah would be a likely candidate for GB spy - having her say that she knows a thing or two about poisons literally right after poisoning someone is a bit on the nose. And then since Shallan made her look for clues, we wouldn't get full picture of the situation and it'd be just annoying. It still is a possibility but I don't want that to happen. 

It would be fun if it turned out that multiple people killed Ialai at the same time. As in, she drank poison herself cause she was trying to escape a possibly more painful death Restares/Mraize might give her - she was sure she's going to die anyway. And the Shallan added more poison to her blood cause Veil wanted to/the fourth persona did it. And on top of that GB poisoned her when she was restrained. 

I also find it surprising Mraize keeps giving her assignments that align with what Dalinar wants, like I get the idea at the beginning to kinda lure her in, telling her to do stuff she would do anyway but it's been ages, you'd think by know she would get like a proper assignment.

As for her going on a downward spiral I really hope it doesn't affect her relationship with Adolin too much. My boy deserves some happiness. It might be wishful thinking but after all not all mental problems have to put a strain on a relationship, depends on the nature of the problem and if she's going to struggle mostly with her past and things like that, he might be actually very helpful with that and provide support - probably not but a girl can dream

What if the the Ghostbloods are all other personalitys of Shallan and that's why the mission have been inline with Dalinars. 

Adolin will stay with her no matter what happens in my opinion. I thi k they will be going on a epic adventure due to the cover. 

[Potus]

Hmmm. There seems to be a few options on who killed Ilalai. 

1) Ishnah is working for the ghostbloods. Would be a little lame if this was the truth since it seems too obvious. 

2) One of "The Three" did it. Could end being a dissociative episode sort of issue. Where one of the Three can take over quickly but repress the memories of what they did. I find it odd that Radiant would do it, with her being the last personality mentioned touching Ilalai. Would have thought Veil, but maybe Radiant has a deep hatred of a person who has caused her new family enormous harm and strife. 

3) Some actual Ghostblood assassin that is unknown to us.