Fabrial Metals

[Karger he/him]

47 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

They are hunting inside the chasms and go around corners like mad.

We don't know if this is there natraul environment.  I think it more likely that they go over corners when possible and have a large number of legs that allow them to take the strain of turning.

1 minute ago, Eternal Khol said:

My thoughts exactly.

The way i see it is, in the context of a Heat Fabrial

 

say the spren is manifested 25% using Zinc (not at all sure if thats how it works, but lets say it does) and then its attribute is expressed at 50% using Pewter.
that Heatrial, will theoretically be running at 12% of its total strength.(the spren is only manifested a quarter of the way, and its only running at half power. So half of 25% is 12.5%)

but if you manifested it as fully as you can using zinc and expressed its attribute as much as possible using Pewter, then you will be getting 100% output out of that heatrial(assuming everything runs efficiently and there are no other modifiers to enhance the strength of the output)

It was suggested we take this here.  The other thing I was thinking about is if their might be "strain" to manifesting a spren too fully that increased inefficiency.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Karger

[Eternal Khol he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

It was suggested we take this here.  The other thing I was thinking about is if their might be "strain" to manifesting a spren too fully that increased inefficiency.

I bet there is some kind of strain. I feel like it even be possible to “shatter” a Spren like that

If they’re  manifesting too much and there is too much power going through them. 

 

Back on Fabrials:

-zinc and brass allow you to define a range of power.

-Pewter and Tin allow you to select a point within that range

 

This is just theoretical, but the Science is sound.

in the context of a heat fabrial

say a Flamespren is manifested normally with zinc and brass(its possible heat range, when in use,  could be from 150 degrees to 250 degrees)

if the spren was any more manifested, it would be capable of outputting more heat(Say 250 degrees to 350) or if manifested less, the heat range would be lower(Say 50 degress to 150)

then using Pewter or Tin(we dont have proof yet, but im using Tin as the opposite of Pewter in Fabrial Science) you can actually create the heat and change the temp within the possible range.

so if the spren is manifested normally using zinc and brass, like in my example above, using Pewter and Tin, you would be able to alter the temp of the heat to between 150-250 degrees(or whatever range, depending of the expression of the spren)

Edited September 1, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Trutharchivist he/him]

I thought that maybe the classification of the allomantic metals as in external/internal would be relevant, but if anything, brass' & zinc's confirmed fabrial effect vs. bronze's (& copper's) makes it look like it's the other way around. Brandon said, I believe, that this classification is merely scadrians trying to make sense of allomancy, so it shouldn't be a logical problem. I'd say that pushing/pulling does works, but it's debatable. It seems that there is a difference between expressing the spren's attribute and manifesting the spren, and that's the difference between physical and mental metals.

BTW, I don't understand much in metals but I recall reading that chromium and cadmium are hard to obtain without modern technology metals, so rosharans shouldn't know about them. Maybe they don't consider gold a fabrial-relevant metal either (after all, it's not such a useful metal in allomancy, and electrum is connected to seeing the future, which is of the voidbringers), and so they'll have ten metals. Just an idea. 

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

so if the spren is manifested normally using zinc and brass, like in my example above, using Pewter and Tin, you would be able to alter the temp of the heat to between 150-250 degrees(or whatever range, depending of the expression of the spren)

I think it is more like if you manifest the spren more with pewter you get a wider range.  For example normally you only get between 150 and 250 but if you add pewter you get between 50 and 350 but less precise and with greater proportional stormlight requirements(Navani mentioned in WoR that infusion draining might risk cracking a gemstone and I think manifesting too strongly might be one way that happens).  Alternatively if you manifest less(using tin if we are right) you might only get a range between 175 and 225 but with a great deal of efficiency and a much lower risk of shattering.

5 minutes ago, Trutharchivist said:

BTW, I don't understand much in metals but I recall reading that chromium and cadmium are hard to obtain without modern technology metals, so rosharans shouldn't know about them. Maybe they don't consider gold a fabrial-relevant metal either (after all, it's not such a useful metal in allomancy, and electrum is connected to seeing the future, which is of the voidbringers), and so they'll have ten metals. Just an idea. 

You can soulcast it though and without much difficulty giving the purity and fairly simple nature of the metals assuming you have a sample.  This is how Rosharans have aluminum. 

[Trutharchivist he/him]

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

assuming you have a sample.

... Which is a very big assumption. How would they know of the mere existence of those metals? I think aluminum is different because ancient scadrians (which is to say Era 1 scadrians) knew about it, so I assume rosharans could know of it as well. They could know of it from their ancestors from ashyn, though - assuming the people of ashyn knew about those metals. 

[Karger he/him]

42 minutes ago, Trutharchivist said:

) knew about it, so I assume rosharans could know of it as well. They could know of it from their ancestors from ashyn, though - assuming the people of ashyn knew about those metals. 

Aluminum and as such deralumin would not be a problem.  The same can be said for gold and electrum.  We know that they have pewter, brass, zinc, tin(we don't know but that one is easy), steel, iron, copper, bronze.  They might not have deralumin and electrum yet.  I think that most likely if we want to stay in 10.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Trutharchivist said:

Maybe they don't consider gold a fabrial-relevant metal either (after all, it's not such a useful metal in allomancy, and electrum is connected to seeing the future, which is of the voidbringers), and so they'll have ten metals. Just an idea. 

They do know that gold can be used in fabrials. Kalami identified gold constructs in Urithiru as fabrials.

[Gilphon]

Although that doesn't mean that they know what gold does, mind you. It's also theoretically possible that they don't know what tin and copper do, but I'm not gonna put any money on that. 

[Raphaborn]

20 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

Augmenters using pewter!!!!!!!!!! And it's the metal that causes the fabrial to consume the higher amount of Stormlight?!!! Just like pewter allomancy is the one that burns metal the fastest. There are no longer just similarities, it's like we're are finally seeing the true importance of metals in the Cosmere. I'm telling u, this epigraphs heve me screaming of excitement every week. 

Huuummh...what would tin do??(since it's pewter partner)

Pewter is physical and pushing. Tin is physical and pulling. So I believe that Diminishers actually use Tin, even though the effects of the two metals are not so closely matched in Allomancy.

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Raphaborn said:

Pewter is physical and pushing. Tin is physical and pulling. So I believe that Diminishers actually use Tin, even though the effects of the two metals are not so closely matched in Allomancy.

That might work.  After all when you feel something you are absorbing a sensation.

[LiquidBlue]

On 8/18/2020 at 9:26 AM, LiquidBlue said:

metal, allomantic effect, proposed fabrial effect

pewter, increases physical abilities, allows selection of spren effect within a narrow window of possibilities

tin, increases sense, allows selection of spren effect within a narrow window of possibilities

Likely, we will get an explanation for tin's effect in next week's epigraph, but I'll do a little speculation before then.

I think that my guess based on the allomantic effects is still pretty valid. You can interpret pewter's effect as an augmenter as emphasizing a particular quality of the spren. In the case of a flamespren, the pewter is enhancing the quality of heat. If this is the case then maybe we will see tin enhance a different quality of the spren, for example tin might enhance the light giving qualities of a flame spren.

[Gilphon]

The main reason I find it hard to buy that Tin is used for diminishers is that Tin the most consistent metal in the metallic arts; it's the only one the does more or less the same thing in Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. It's always been about manipulating your ability to perceive the physical world, and I really wouldn't expect Fabrials to break that trend. 

Also: we really don't have any good candidates for a metal that makes conjoiners and reversers, do we? I keep thinking about Gold and Electrum for that role, but I really can't justify that with anything stronger than 'well, it's a pair that they could reasonably have discovered that hasn't been confirmed to be something else!'

[StanLemon]

9 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

The main reason I find it hard to buy that Tin is used for diminishers is that Tin the most consistent metal in the metallic arts; it's the only one the does more or less the same thing in Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemalurgy. It's always been about manipulating your ability to perceive the physical world, and I really wouldn't expect Fabrials to break that trend. 

Also: we really don't have any good candidates for a metal that makes conjoiners and reversers, do we? I keep thinking about Gold and Electrum for that role, but I really can't justify that with anything stronger than 'well, it's a pair that they could reasonably have discovered that hasn't been confirmed to be something else!'

I agree that Tin is unlikely for Diminishers, I personally think Copper might be more likely but that's because of my personal theory on Copper Allomancy. 

Of all the metals, Iron and Steel seem the most likely to me for Conjoiners and Reversers respectively 

[Karger he/him]

44 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Also: we really don't have any good candidates for a metal that makes conjoiners and reversers, do we? I keep thinking about Gold and Electrum for that role, but I really can't justify that with anything stronger than 'well, it's a pair that they could reasonably have discovered that hasn't been confirmed to be something else!'

I have steel and iron in those slots.  I think the reasoning makes sense.

[Gilphon]

Iron and Steel make attractors and repulsers. We know that because of the attractor that was called out as being made of steel in Shadesmar. Which are both a different thing than conjoiners and reversers and a better fit for how iron and steel act in Allomancy. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Gilphon

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

...Wait.

...Oh I just had a lightbulb moment.

Shardblade metal as the cage for a fabrial? What would that do? It's an alloy of Honor and Cultivation's God Metals. Surely that does something impressive.

[Innovation]

27 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

...Wait.

...Oh I just had a lightbulb moment.

Shardblade metal as the cage for a fabrial? What would that do? It's an alloy of Honor and Cultivation's God Metals. Surely that does something impressive.

There have to be dozens of god metal and regular metal alloys possible. I can’t image all of them can be used for Fabrials or have effects other than the effects that normal metals have. 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

Just now, Innovation said:

There have to be dozens of god metal and regular metal alloys possible. I can’t image all of them can be used for Fabrials or have effects other than the effects that normal metals have. 

I think each Radiant Spren has a different ratio of Honor/Cultivation god metal, perhaps syncing that with the Polestone associated with that order will do something cool?

[Gilphon]

I mean, in fact what you're doing there is switching around the 'metal' and 'spren' components of a Fabrial. Which, yeah, could make some weird stuff happen, but... well, imagine if you somehow converted Brass into a spren. A Soothspren, let's say. That could probably interact with other spren in a way that's not totally unlike the effect of a brass cage on a fabrial. And if we follow that back the other way, we'd get a fabrial that, for example, would magically produce the natural result of pain and honor coming into contact. So, like I said, weird stuff

But you could also just put an Honorspren and Painspren together without bothering to make a Fabrial out of it, and probably get mostly the same thing. Except, of course, for whatever difference the gem makes.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Innovation said:

There have to be dozens of god metal and regular metal alloys possible. I can’t image all of them can be used for Fabrials or have effects other than the effects that normal metals have. 

All godmetals are viable at least in theory.  So it should do something.  Unfortunately spren have identity so I don't think they will work very well.  It might not be interesting but something will happen.

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

But you could also just put an Honorspren and Painspren together without bothering to make a Fabrial out of it, and probably get mostly the same thing. Except, of course, for whatever difference the gem makes.

Not to mention the extra power.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Karger

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

I mean, in fact what you're doing there is switching around the 'metal' and 'spren' components of a Fabrial. Which, yeah, could make some weird stuff happen, but... well, imagine if you somehow converted Brass into a spren. A Soothspren, let's say. That could probably interact with other spren in a way that's not totally unlike the effect of a brass cage on a fabrial. And if we follow that back the other way, we'd get a fabrial that, for example, would magically produce the natural result of pain and honor coming into contact. So, like I said, weird stuff

But you could also just put an Honorspren and Painspren together without bothering to make a Fabrial out of it, and probably get mostly the same thing. Except, of course, for whatever difference the gem makes.

Huh... Actually you're right. Hm... Oh, maybe one of the Radiant's Plate's lesser spren can be housed within the gem, and enhanced/altered/improved by the Radiant spren as the cage. Imagine a Dustbringer with a Heatrial like that. All they would need to carry around is a ruby with the holes for the cage, and they could assemble it at will. Maybe even direct the output of heat... Huh. Now I'm picturing something kinda like Iron Man's gauntlets with the repulsors on the palm, but it's a Heatrial with the output focused directly away from the palm of the wearer.

Fabrial Flamethrower? Could be kinda close to Firebending. Hah.

[Innovation]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Fabrial Flamethrower?

And now I have an idea for a Fabrial that shoots lighting.  

[Karger he/him]

35 minutes ago, Innovation said:

And now I have an idea for a Fabrial that shoots lighting.  

Is it the same as my idea?  Get an attraction fabrail with a captured lightningspren?

[Innovation]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Is it the same as my idea?  Get an attraction fabrail with a captured lightningspren?

Yeah, then a repulsion Fabrial to shoot it away. 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

Is it the same as my idea?  Get an attraction fabrail with a captured lightningspren?

 

1 minute ago, Innovation said:

Yeah, then a repulsion Fabrial to shoot it away. 

Sounds like Lightning Redirection from Avatar then.