Fabrial Metals

[Karger he/him]

OK if we are laying or guesses.

Tin communicates information from the PR.  Makes the spren more receptive to stimulation(good for alerters).

Pewter does the reverse of tin making the spren less receptive although maybe more active once that threshold has been reached(makes sure your alerters don't become too sensitive).  This also explains how Rysn's alerter fabrail could have worked(from Shin interlude).  She calibrated it ahead of time for the number of people they had.  That way it only noticed additional people.

Rysn did use my suggested method of calibration but no pewter was involved.  We now know that augmentatiors work using pewter. 

Steel used in reversers. 

Iron used in conjoiners.  Both seem pretty obvious.  They work off of physical connections.

Brass and zinc we already know.  Zinc projects.   Brass consumes(I think this is how Navani's painrail works).

Copper should project something cognitively.  I think you will need it to build a more complex fabrail(have the one fabrail that works in tandem with another) you will need copper. 

Bronze does the reverse allowing a spren to "listen" cognitively(good for a different type of alerter).

Sigh, now on to the metals we don't actually understand.

Gold lets you get gimps at an something's soul.  Maybe in future you will use it along with a painspren to identify murder weapons.

Electrum shows the desires people?  Kind of the reverse of gold?

Nicrosil stores investiture.  Kind of like a battery.

Chromium helps drain investiture storage.  Maybe acts like a release valve?

Cadmium pushes spirits forward?

Bendalloy slows down progression?

Aluminum blocks(or possibly conducts) investiture.

Duralumin does stuff with connection.  Possibly aligns fabrails better.  Might allow a faux bond.

Edited September 1, 2020 by Karger

[Gilphon]

So, I mean, Navani said that Zinc and Brass were the 'principle' metals. So the other metals are going to do things that aren't as broadly useful in the context of Fabrials. Which makes sense; none of the others directly affect cognition, so they're not gonna directly affect a spren either. Copper and Bronze are probably gonna be the easiest other ones to use, since they're both still Mental metals.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Gilphon

[Shardsplinter he/him]

53 minutes ago, Honorless said:

In addition, the Fused might be using chromium/aluminium/nicrosil/duralumin for suppressing Surgebinding/Stormlight use, if metals are involved in that, then this quadrant is a safe bet for what could be causing that effect

What just doesn't seem to add up For me with this void fabrials is that if it were to function similar to those metals then Kaladin would've been drained of his Stormlight. Instead he kept it, but was unable to use it, and also couldn't summon Syl.

Actually know I'm starting to second Guess myself. Aluminium/D/C/N eliminate the allomancer's reserve of metals but that isn't the actual investidure that fuels allomancy( Preservation is) rather is the key to use that investidure. So probably the voidfabrial does the same, let's u keep the investidure ( in this Chase the stormlight) but takes away the "key" that allows u to use it. What I'm still not seeing clearly is why he couldn't summon Sylblade, had he also lost the necessary "key" to transform Syl's investidure into the physical blade?

Can't wait For Navani to get her hands in the fabrials, although she won't be making any allomancy comparations , so  on those we are on our own

[Knight Oblivion]

One big question is if the alloy of Brass requires the exact Allomantic alloy composition? It could be comparable to Allomancy in which slight variations alter the efficacy until it's no longer functional or be more exacting considering fabrials seem to be a more precise system/science.

[Innovation]

59 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

So, I mean, Navani said that Zinc and Brass were the 'principle' metals. So the other metals are going to do things that aren't as broadly useful in the context of Fabrials. Which makes sense; none of the others directly affect cognition, so they're not gonna directly affect a spren either. Copper and Bronze are probably gonna be the easiest other ones to use, since they're both still Mental metals.

Mental metals will probably be the only ones used in Fabrials, I agree. Beyond brass and zinc, for scaling up and down power, you have other metals for range, specifics (like in an alerter Fabrial), and pairing distance (conjoiners). I think we will see some similarities with metal type, but we shouldn’t focus on it. 

38 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

One big question is if the alloy of Brass requires the exact Allomantic alloy composition? It could be comparable to Allomancy in which slight variations alter the efficacy until it's no longer functional or be more exacting considering fabrials seem to be a more precise system/science.

I doubt it. Isn’t metal still invested even if it isn’t Allomantic? 

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Innovation said:

I doubt it. Isn’t metal still invested even if it isn’t Allomantic? 

Metal isn't Invested. Allomantic metals molecular structure just acts as a key to shape the Investiture coming through.

Though also doubt that ones for fabrics need to be exact to work, but I bet the closer to being the exact structure the better they work 

[Realmatic Shadow]

8 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

So probably the voidfabrial does the same, let's u keep the investidure ( in this Chase the stormlight) but takes away the "key" that allows u to use it. What I'm still not seeing clearly is why he couldn't summon Sylblade, had he also lost the necessary "key" to transform Syl's investidure into the physical blade?

I'd thought of it more along the line of inhibiting the use of kinetic investiture within the range, where lashings and maybe even sprenblades being summoned qualify under that, but the stormlight in the radiant is more similar to stormlight in a gemstone, and doesn't fall under that jurisdiction.
 

[Knight Oblivion]

On 8/18/2020 at 0:06 PM, StanLemon said:

Metal isn't Invested. Allomantic metals molecular structure just acts as a key to shape the Investiture coming through.

Though also doubt that ones for fabrics need to be exact to work, but I bet the closer to being the exact structure the better they work 

 

They probably don't. The alloys for fabrials would likely have, at least, a similar error range for their compositions as Allomantic alloys. So, allowing for variances about a percentage off. I'm not sure if fabrials can be more forgiving though, it would likely depend on the general metallurgical skill present on Roshar. Maybe that's a part of the secrets of the artifabrian guilds hold.

[Raphaborn]

A bronze cage can create a warning fabrial, alerting one to objects or entities nearby.

[Quantus he/him]

22 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

A bronze cage can create a warning fabrial, alerting one to objects or entities nearby.

And the pattern holds.  Im calling it now, Copper would help hide you from a Warning Fabrial. 

So far our examples are all Cognitive Metals, and Spren are fundamentally Cognitive Entities, so it makes sense that they'd be affected along similar lines.  Now Im curious to see if if the pattern changes for physical or spiritual metals. 

Eventually I want to be able to figure out Navani's Dehumidifier fabrial, the one that looked to be using Gravitation to selectively Pull moisture.  She made an offhand mention of how she feared it might pull everyone's blood out, so Im guessing the Gravitation effect comes from the spren type (Mandra most likely), and the Gem determined which Essence it would target (Blood), but that leaves it to the metal cage to refine "All Blood Essence" to "Water Only".

 

[Innovation]

18 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And the pattern holds.  Im calling it now, Copper would help hide you from a Warning Fabrial. 

So far our examples are all Cognitive Metals, and Spren are fundamentally Cognitive Entities, so it makes sense that they'd be affected along similar lines.  Now Im curious to see if if the pattern changes for physical or spiritual metals. 

Eventually I want to be able to figure out Navani's Dehumidifier fabrial, the one that looked to be using Gravitation to selectively Pull moisture.  She made an offhand mention of how she feared it might pull everyone's blood out, so Im guessing the Gravitation effect comes from the spren type (Mandra most likely), and the Gem determined which Essence it would target (Blood), but that leaves it to the metal cage to refine "All Blood Essence" to "Water Only".

 

Maybe it just targets liquid. 

[Quantus he/him]

5 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Maybe it just targets liquid. 

It did not, otherwise it would have pulled everyone's blood out of their bodies as Navani feared.  

[Karger he/him]

26 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And the pattern holds.  Im calling it now, Copper would help hide you from a Warning Fabrial. 

I don't think so.  Copper does more then just make a cloud.  We see this in OB where they use a wire to communicate.

26 minutes ago, Quantus said:

and the Gem determined which Essence it would target (Blood), but that leaves it to the metal cage to refine "All Blood Essence" to "Water Only".

Why not just use a riverspren?

Edited August 25, 2020 by Karger

[Innovation]

Just now, Quantus said:

It did not, otherwise it would have pulled everyone's blood out of their bodies as Navani feared.  

Specific liquids. Maybe Navani was worried she set it to blood and not water. This may not be the case; I’m just throwing ideas out there. 

[Quantus he/him]

Just now, Innovation said:

Specific liquids. Maybe Navani was worried she set it to blood and not water. This may not be the case; I’m just throwing ideas out there. 

My point is just that I'm hoping to figure out how she was able to "set" it at all.  She seemed concerned that it would default to the base Essence (Blood) rather than adjusting to specifically Water, but so far there hasnt been any indication of they make those changes, other than the implication that it's part of the mechanical farbrial design and not a fundamentally different spren.  

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I don't think so.  Copper does more then just make a cloud.  We see this in OB where they use a wire to communicate.

 

I never said Copper had only one application and it's one power was to mimic Copperclouds, just that Im now confident it will be able to accomplish that function, and in general will be a spren perception modifier that somehow acts opposite of Bronze. It makes sense that they would have applications similar to their Allomantic metal expression, but by that logic there should be equal chance of getting something similar to feruchemy.   

As far as Copper for Communication on OB, youre talking about the copper inlays in the Shadesmar boat that Kaladin guessed was letting the spren communicate somehow, yes?  That was a wildly different scenario in all regards. Fabrials in Shademar may or may not use the same principles at all (with all sorts of ethical implications if they are the same).  The Condensation "fabrial" for example was all steel and used stormlight with a Shadesmar Bead to manifest cold, not any sort of Spren-gem.  And Shallan suspected that the copper was being used for communication because of patterns in the copper's vibrations, which doesnt sound like any direct cognitive effect at all, more of a morse-code intercomm.

 

 

[Karger he/him]

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

and in general will be a spren perception modifier that somehow acts opposite of Bronze

I don't think it will work like that.  We will see but I am confident that copper allomancy works by exploiting a specific principle.

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Fabrials in Shademar may or may not use the same principles at all (with all sorts of ethical implications if they are the same).  The Condensation "fabrial" for example was all steel and used stormlight with a Shadesmar Bead

Do we know it was steel?

[Raphaborn]

56 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And the pattern holds.  Im calling it now, Copper would help hide you from a Warning Fabrial. 

So far our examples are all Cognitive Metals, and Spren are fundamentally Cognitive Entities, so it makes sense that they'd be affected along similar lines.  Now Im curious to see if if the pattern changes for physical or spiritual metals. 

Eventually I want to be able to figure out Navani's Dehumidifier fabrial, the one that looked to be using Gravitation to selectively Pull moisture.  She made an offhand mention of how she feared it might pull everyone's blood out, so Im guessing the Gravitation effect comes from the spren type (Mandra most likely), and the Gem determined which Essence it would target (Blood), but that leaves it to the metal cage to refine "All Blood Essence" to "Water Only".

 

Remembering that Copper blocks Emotional Allomancy and Rhythms. So there's something more here than blocking detection.

[Quantus he/him]

Just now, Karger said:

I don't think it will work like that.  We will see but I am confident that copper allomancy works by exploiting a specific principle.

I agree so Im curious how you're arriving at the opposite conclusion. Copper Allomancy seems to effect the same principle as Bronze, in that it lets you perceive various forms of Investiture.  So if a Bronze Fabrial is a Warning Fabrial that is attempting to detect things at a distance, why would copper Not block/suppres it the same way.  Assuming bronze and copper fabrial effect a common mechanism they way they doing Allomancy, of course, rather than a wiuldly different effect like the A/F differences.  

Just now, Karger said:

Do we know it was steel?

Yup, it was explicitly "made entirely of steel"

1 minute ago, Raphaborn said:

Remembering that Copper blocks Emotional Allomancy and Rhythms. So there's something more here than blocking detection.

Sure.  Again, I never said that Copper would only ever have a single use in fabrial techlology.  But Copper and Bronze have always worked on the same principle in opposite directions/effects, so if a Bronze Fabrial is can make a Warning Fabrial, it seems entirely consistent that a Copper Fabiral could foil that detection exactly the way Copper Allomancy can block Bronze Allomancy.

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

why would copper Not block/suppres it the same way.  Assuming bronze and copper fabrial effect a common mechanism they way they doing Allomancy, of course, rather than a wiuldly different effect like the A/F differences.  

I think bronze accepts while copper projects(or possibly transmits). 

2 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Yup, it was explicitly "made entirely of steel"

Interesting.

[Raphaborn]

10 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Yup, it was explicitly "made entirely of steel"

Would you have this quote?

[Quantus he/him]

25 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think bronze accepts while copper projects(or possibly transmits). 

Interesting!  So under that model the Copperclouds work as they do more by jamming the bronze signal with excessive white noise than by directly suppressing the pulses.  I hadnt heard that take on it before, and I like it. 

Doesnt change my initial statement though, which is that if Bronze grants a fabrial the ability to Detect [Blank], I fully expect a similarly constructed Copper fabrial to inhibit that Detection of [Blank] using a comparable mechanism to the allomantic Copper/Bronze pair. 

 

6 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

Would you have this quote?

Sure.  OB Ch 99:  "Here, the captain knelt and opened the box, which revealed a strange deviuce that looked a little like a coat rack--although only about three feet tall.  Made entirely of steel, it had dozens of small metal prongs extending from it, like the branches of a tree--only it had a metal basin at the very bottom."  

 

Granted, there's every possibility that the steel's only function is the mundane thermal conduction needed to condense humidity once the Soul Sphere created the cold.  Though scientifically speaking, copper would work better in basically every way for that, so Im tend to doubt that's the case.  

 

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

Doesnt change my initial statement though, which is that if Bronze grants a fabrial the ability to Detect [Blank], I fully expect a similarly constructed Copper fabrial to inhibit that Detection of [Blank] using a comparable mechanism to the allomantic Copper/Bronze pair. 

Maybe.  Alternatively you might give a false positive of a large number of blancs.

[Quantus he/him]

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

Maybe.  Alternatively you might give a false positive of a large number of blancs.

huh?

[Raphaborn]

13 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Sure.  OB Ch 99:  "Here, the captain knelt and opened the box, which revealed a strange deviuce that looked a little like a coat rack--although only about three feet tall.  Made entirely of steel, it had dozens of small metal prongs extending from it, like the branches of a tree--only it had a metal basin at the very bottom."  

Granted, there's every possibility that the steel's only function is the mundane thermal conduction needed to condense humidity once the Soul Sphere created the cold.  Though scientifically speaking, copper would work better in basically every way for that, so Im tend to doubt that's the case.  

 

It may be my impression, but this Fabrial is Pushing the heat out the area.

[Innovation]

I personally think the Fabrial was manifesting a bead of ice, then allowing it to melt naturally or melting using a heating Fabrial.