The Alethi are actually TERRIBLE Politicians

[Karger he/him]

Dalinar spends most of the first two books bemoaning his lack of political fineness.  He feels outplayed by the others and is unable to win support for his causes from the other highprinces.  He is angry that the other highprinces are not acting like soldiers but instead acting like politicians.  The thing is.  I don't think that any of them were actually any good at politics.  

Politics.

Quote

Politics (from Greek: Πολιτικά, politiká, 'affairs of the cities') is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.

The thing is none of the other highprinces actually make decisions in groups.  They make brief alliances when they have to but those are all based on immediate personal gain.  None of the Highprinces had any actual goals beyond immediate advantage except for two, Sebarial and Dalinar.  Sadeas is fine at setting traps for his opponents like at the duel or the tower but he can't get people to work with him long term.  It is also worth noting that Dalinar actually managed the same thing with Amaram.  I personally think this is symptomatic of the fact that the majority of the highprinces are all former generals who are not acting according to their training.  They would rather be fifth rate politicians then second rate generals.

[Gilphon]

This, of course, is also a function of the unified Alethkar being a pretty young nation. The highprinces are not used to being members of a team; they're used to running their individual princedom independently

[Gears]

Given that Alethkar is the recent unification of ten kingdoms into one kingdom with each of those ten groups as "princedoms", they're doing pretty well. If I was taking over several kingdoms, I would have wiped out their individuality. The different princedoms are acting as separate entities, so Alethkar as a whole suffers. It's like when the USA was a new country and each state acted individually with other nations, creating a great deal of confusion in foreign policy.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Dalinar spends most of the first two books bemoaning his lack of political fineness.  He feels outplayed by the others and is unable to win support for his causes from the other highprinces.  He is angry that the other highprinces are not acting like soldiers but instead acting like politicians.  The thing is.  I don't think that any of them were actually any good at politics.  

Politics.

The thing is none of the other highprinces actually make decisions in groups.  They make brief alliances when they have to but those are all based on immediate personal gain.  None of the Highprinces had any actual goals beyond immediate advantage except for two, Sebarial and Dalinar.  Sadeas is fine at setting traps for his opponents like at the duel or the tower but he can't get people to work with him long term.  It is also worth noting that Dalinar actually managed the same thing with Amaram.  I personally think this is symptomatic of the fact that the majority of the highprinces are all former generals who are not acting according to their training.  They would rather be fifth rate politicians then second rate generals.

Your definition does say:

Politics (from Greek: Πολιτικά, politiká, 'affairs of the cities') is the set of activities that are associated with making decisions in groups, or other forms of power relations between individuals, such as the distribution of resources or status.

 

You can be a dictator, and still have politics. A group working together is not a requirement, but tends to be a feature. If we look up the definition of "power relations":

 

" power is the capacity of an individual to influence the actions, beliefs, or conduct (behaviour) of others"

 

Which I would say the Alethi count. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

18 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

This, of course, is also a function of the unified Alethkar being a pretty young nation. The highprinces are not used to being members of a team; they're used to running their individual princedom independently

16 minutes ago, Gears said:

Given that Alethkar is the recent unification of ten kingdoms into one kingdom with each of those ten groups as "princedoms", they're doing pretty well. If I was taking over several kingdoms, I would have wiped out their individuality. The different princedoms are acting as separate entities, so Alethkar as a whole suffers. It's like when the USA was a new country and each state acted individually with other nations, creating a great deal of confusion in foreign policy.

Sure, Dalinar himself notes this.  However even political leaders like heads of state have some experience at being team players.  They have actual policy goals.  Effective political leaders find positions and entrench themselves accumulating political capital as they work toward their long term goals.  Sebarial is actually a good example of this.  He has no real interest in being feared or respected.  His goal is to gain financial independence significant enough to secure his own safety as well as prosperity for his own people.  To this end he is willing to work with other people or even suborn himself to a greater authority.  What are Sadeas's goals?  He wants to be feared and respected.  To this end he is actually fairly ineffective.  He makes himself hated and manages to get a few other highprinces to go along but it does not last.  His deals are based on the political capital he has already accumulated personally.  They don't last and he alienates everyone else around him.

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You can be a dictator, and still have politics. A group working together is not a requirement, but tends to be a feature. If we look up the definition of "power relations":

That is really semantic.  Dictators need people to carry out their will.  No one has every really become god emperor for very long without will administrators, advisors, and supporters.  Even if the relationship between dictator and subject is unequal it still involves some form of cooperation.

[Negative_Null They/Them]

I agree none of them are great at politics. I'm reminded of Mistborn, Elantris, or even Warbreaker, where every person had a plot, two plots, however many Kelsier had, all running together. The Highprinces for the most part remind me of King Iadon in Elantris, only focusing on the short  term benefits and not seeing the intricacies that lie under the surface. And as we all know, he sucked at his job, so it says a lot about the princes.

I think one conclusion we're supposed to draw is what you guys have said above, that they're generals or profiteers first, politicians second. The other, I think, is that the wives are probably doing more behind the scenes than we see on screen

[Pathfinder]

25 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is really semantic.  Dictators need people to carry out their will.  No one has every really become god emperor for very long without will administrators, advisors, and supporters.  Even if the relationship between dictator and subject is unequal it still involves some form of cooperation.

I really don't think it is semantic, especially considering the webpage you draw your definition from literally includes dictatorship as an example, if you scroll a bit further down. The Alethi use their military might to enact political power. But I guess to each their own. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

41 minutes ago, Negative_Null said:

I think one conclusion we're supposed to draw is what you guys have said above, that they're generals or profiteers first, politicians second. The other, I think, is that the wives are probably doing more behind the scenes than we see on screen

Those are both good points.

25 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I really don't think it is semantic, especially considering the webpage you draw your definition from literally includes dictatorship as an example, if you scroll a bit further down. The Alethi use their military might to enact political power. But I guess to each their own. 

That statement is out of context.  It briefly mentions dictatorship as a "form of government" under the subheading for political systems.  However a political system is defined as

Quote

the process for making official government decisions

 

and a government is defined as

Quote

the system or group of people governing an organized community,

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Those are both good points.

That statement is out of context.  It briefly mentions dictatorship as a "form of government" under the subheading for political systems.  However a political system is defined as

 

and a government is defined as

 

Honestly now I am getting very confused. The very definition you posted earlier also specified that "or other forms of power relations between individuals". If you continue just a bit further on the website you reference, it discusses how there are opposing views on what politics is. That some argue it is purely co-operation (as you are stating), while others state it is purely an exercise in power with some inbetween. Then further in the page, it mentions politics is in regards to the governance of society, and then lists examples of governments, of which dictatorship is included. If you then click on dictatorship and read up on that portion, it goes into the differences between dictatorships and totalitarian regimes. The focus on the individual exercising power over other individuals to set ideology and structure. 

I mean its all there. Right from the place you are drawing from. At this point I am at a loss at what is being discussed. The Alethi was a series of states ruled by military dictators, that exercised their power via alliances, and battles in the governance of their people. It is not what some people would view as "the ideal" government, but it certainly counts as "politics", it worked, and they were a world power for a very long time (prior to the desolations. That changed everything). 

Are you saying they failed at a democracy or a constitutional monarchy? Because that makes more sense to me. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Eternal Khol he/him]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

The thing is.  I don't think that any of them were actually any good at politics.  

 

i thought that was a given XD

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

That some argue it is purely co-operation (as you are stating), while others state it is purely an exercise in power with some inbetween

I never implied that politics are as you phrased it, "purely co-operational," that implies that all individuals are voluntarily participating in some kind of political system.  That is obviously not always the case.  Plenty of people engage in poltics well openly or covertly working against political systems for example.  In the US doing so is actually in vogue.  This is also all pretty irrelevant since I am not interested in Alethi government.  My point was instead in that the Alethi highprinces as political actors, the individuals who make choices in the government, are actually pretty terrible at it.  Only two of them have clearly stated objectives, goals, or causes.  The rest simple vacillate between different perceived or real intimidate goals.  If Elhokar were smart enough to time some good concessions to cooperative highprinces or play them against each other in a manner that exhausted them and enriched the crown I honestly don't think any of them would give him much trouble.

59 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

i thought that was a given XD

Really why?

Edited July 17, 2020 by Karger

[Eternal Khol he/him]

33 minutes ago, Karger said:

Really why?

just a feeling i get when reading SA

ive never imagined the Highprinces or much of anyone in Alethkar,really, as being very good at politics(just look at how the other nations veiw/interact with them)

you want politics, go to the Azish

you want war, go to the Alethi

you want Chouta, go to Lopen

Edited July 17, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Kuram]

The alethi are warlords playing at what they think politics is.  Fighting, shows of force, backstabbing and appearance over substance.

[Eternal Khol he/him]

39 minutes ago, Kuram said:

The alethi are warlords playing at what they think politics is.  Fighting, shows of force, backstabbing and appearance over substance.

Perfectly said

[+Wax he/him]

5 hours ago, Gears said:

Given that Alethkar is the recent unification of ten kingdoms into one kingdom with each of those ten groups as "princedoms", they're doing pretty well. If I was taking over several kingdoms, I would have wiped out their individuality. The different princedoms are acting as separate entities, so Alethkar as a whole suffers. It's like when the USA was a new country and each state acted individually with other nations, creating a great deal of confusion in foreign policy.

That wiping out individuality viewpoint is flawed.

India has 25 state languages, and many more sub dialects. It still is one country.

USA has a southern culture which is different from northern/coastal USA.

The key to successful integration is respecting and letting differing cultures, viewpoints and languages co-exist.  The more inclusive a group is, the higher is the chance of unity.

Sure, foreign policy, is one that Princedoms can pass on to a central government.

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by Wax

[earthexile]

I don't think there's a way for a caste of illiterate Forever Warriors to effectively run a government. I think if we learn more about the ins and outs of Alethi politics, we'll find that a lot of it is done quietly behind the scenes by the women who actually transmit all the messages and relay all the information. What do these bozo Highprinces know about anything? Note that the only one we've seen trying to administer and grow his peoples' holdings is Sebarial, who is the most dismissive of Alethi cultural norms and the least interested in war.

[ConfusedCow]

Let's respect Alethi culture a bit.  If their politics are about snide comments, chest thumping and backstabbing that's their cultural traditions. Politics is always a balance of fear and friendship.  Not everyone has an enlightened class of politicians focused on productive discussion, respecting each other, and general wellbeing like us.  

[Karger he/him]

23 hours ago, Wax said:

That wiping out individuality viewpoint is flawed.

India has 25 state languages, and many more sub dialects. It still is one country.

USA has a southern culture which is different from northern/coastal USA.

The key to successful integration is respecting and letting differing cultures, viewpoints and languages co-exist.  The more inclusive a group is, the higher is the chance of unity.

Sure, foreign policy, is one that Princedoms can pass on to a central government.

This is a very old argument.  Governments that can't effectively balance local concerns against national interests tend to collapse.  However if you are too inclusive you run the risk of having citizens that don't really believe in the nation's agenda.  The Spanish and Roman empires are respective examples of this.

15 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

Let's respect Alethi culture a bit.  If their politics are about snide comments, chest thumping and backstabbing that's their cultural traditions. Politics is always a balance of fear and friendship.  Not everyone has an enlightened class of politicians focused on productive discussion, respecting each other, and general wellbeing like us. 

That is an interesting point.  The Alethi don't really have a tradition of courtly intrigue and subtle power displays.  They are going off what they know.  It is just that what they know is ill suited to what they have to accomplish.

19 hours ago, earthexile said:

I don't think there's a way for a caste of illiterate Forever Warriors to effectively run a government. I think if we learn more about the ins and outs of Alethi politics, we'll find that a lot of it is done quietly behind the scenes by the women who actually transmit all the messages and relay all the information. What do these bozo Highprinces know about anything? Note that the only one we've seen trying to administer and grow his peoples' holdings is Sebarial, who is the most dismissive of Alethi cultural norms and the least interested in war.

Perhaps Jasnah will establish the monarchy as a more feminine job?  That could be interesting.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Karger

[Frustration]

On 7/17/2020 at 7:47 PM, Wax said:

USA has a southern culture which is different from northern/coastal USA.

That's an understatement, each state can have multiple cultures, just look at the difference between northern and southern California. Or that the inner states and the costal states are almost completely different. Or how politics decides certain states, or how there are cultural divides between generations. There are so many different walks of life, and all in one country.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

7 hours ago, Karger said:

That is an interesting point.  The Alethi don't really have a tradition of courtly intrigue and subtle power displays. 

But they do. For example the Roshone affair. They invest in fashion, they host feasts and so on. They just lack it at the national level. You don't have a political career as a High Prince. At best you can marry off your daughter to the royal house. Yet at courts they practice classical court politics and intrigue, right out of the renaissance. A view of politics that requires elections and political careers of course is anachronistic.

They also lack ideology. You just run a strong state. Somebody like Sebarial is possible only due to the recent political unity of Alethkar. Before unification another High Prince would just have taken his spheres by armed force. Alethkar is at a stage of technology and economy in which winning wars is still a viable path to wealth. Frequent wars are also a social necessity to get rid of too many second and third sons.
Them solving conflicts by war is just a rational reaction to the circumstances.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

They are going off what they know.  It is just that what they know is ill suited to what they have to accomplish.

Perhaps Jasnah will establish the monarchy as a more feminine job?  That could be interesting.

The demographic catastrophe Roshar is going to suffer will change a lot more.

On 17/07/2020 at 11:15 PM, Negative_Null said:

The Highprinces for the most part remind me of King Iadon in Elantris, only focusing on the short  term benefits and not seeing the intricacies that lie under the surface.

That is not true. Both Gavilar and Sadeas had political visions of the future of Alethkar. And they rationally advanced them. It is just a characteristic of monarchies that the losers don't just lose an election but a head.

[Karger he/him]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is not true. Both Gavilar and Sadeas had political visions of the future of Alethkar. And they rationally advanced them. It is just a characteristic of monarchies that the losers don't just lose an election but a head.

Gavilar was actually a good politian.  Not sure what you mean by Sadeas's vision.  He was in it for the short term.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

But they do. For example the Roshone affair.

Was an actual example of treason.  It was not subtle it was actually quite heavy handed.  A smarter way of doing things would have been to have Elhokar make some kind of new regulation that would make it impossible for the smiths to stay in business.  All silversmith shops must be located in this part of the city for taxation reasons.

[Negative_Null They/Them]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is not true. Both Gavilar and Sadeas had political visions of the future of Alethkar. And they rationally advanced them. It is just a characteristic of monarchies that the losers don't just lose an election but a head.

I did say most high princes. Gavilar certainly had a long term vision, and Sadeas was good at intrigue, but I wouldn't say the same about most of the other princes

[ConfusedCow]

The whole USA has a southern culture statement seems a bit unfriendly.  I grew up in the north before moving to NC.  Am I unamerican?  

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, ConfusedCow said:

The whole USA has a southern culture statement seems a bit unfriendly.  I grew up in the north before moving to NC.  Am I unamerican?  

You are currently "unsouthern" I suppose although I don't see why it matters.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Karger

[Elend Venture he/him]

I get the distinct feeling that Torol may not have been interested in the positioning for the extended future, but Ialai certainly was. And I think it goes without saying that this likely alloys to a lot of highprinces and their wives.