Spren and Returned are similarly damaged

[XaviGzz]

There's a point in Warbreaker where Llarimar is explaining to Lightsong their religion and states that:

Quote

Returned have... goals. Objectives which are their own. You knew of your before you decided to come back, but the process of leaping across the Iridescent Wave leaves the memory fragmented. Stay long enough and you'll remember what you came to accomplish.

This is exactly what happens to spren, where crossing to the physical realm leaves their mind fragmented and after some time (and finding the right person) they start healing. 

However, this does not happen to those who have the surge of Transformation, as we can clearly see with Shallan/Jasnah goin to the CR. 

The only difference I can find between the spren/Returned to the KR with transformation is that the later are alive (have a physical aspect in the physical realm) while moving through realms.

And here is where a theory popped up in my head. Spren/Returned being just investiture at the point they cross to the Physical Realm, their mind gets scrambled. The why I have not yet figured out, but I think it happens cosmere-wise and not shard dependent (Why would Endowment do this in purpose? If she returns people so that they can do something about what they see via Futuresight before passing to the Beyond, why scramble their brains?) I don't think we have seen someone from Scadrial return to the PR after being "Preserved",

Spoiler

but can or did it happen to Kelsier after soulstamping himself to a body?

 I do have to concede that eventually at the correct time, Lightsong did remember his purpose and the spren eventually get their memories back. 

But I do think that the mind scrambling happens cosmere-wise and would not be localized to Roshar and Nalthis.

I would like to know what everyone else thinks. Thanks!

 

[Ixthos he/him]

My own theory on this is basically that a Returned and a Spren are cogntive beings, with their minds and bodies the same in the cognitive realm. When they enter the physical world, part of their "mass" has to leave the Cogntive world - though this is mainly for the Spren, some of the Divine Breath the Returned has has to become physical to enter their body. This loss of mass is therefore a partial loss of mind, cognitive "organs" transformed into magic in the physical realm, and thus they are less than what they were in the cognitive realm. Once they start growing again the cognitive mass begins to reform, and possibly the connections in the spiritual realm their minds had to their memories can then reform those "organs" in their cognitive bodies.

If Kelsier has to transform most of his cognitive mass into the charge in a spike he might lose memories as well, but he also has the advantage of potentially using the existing charge in a spike to "link" his shadow to a body while retaining its presence in the physical world. Also, if there is a method of duplicating the contents of a copper mind - which is almost certainly possible as the coin Wax had with the memories was probably one of several copies - then he could also "cheat" if he could somehow transfere his memories while a cognitive shadow to someone else in the physical world, get them to duplicate or store it for him in an unsealed metalmind, and then tap it when he is transferred to a body.

[Karger he/him]

I agree that the causes are basically the same.  My theory as to why is that neither spren nor returned have the "hardware" necessary for a corporal.  In a realm of pure thought the idea of a person is enough.  In a realm of matter you require matter to effectively generate a mind so when you try and make a body on the PR realm side you have a bit of lag(like with wifi) that makes using a mind difficult.  Sorry if I am explaining badly.  Basically the mind and body are in different realms and they are kind of out of sink with each other.

 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

It's certainly plausible that this is occurring,  by whatever mechanism it turns out to be. My question is, what about the Heralds and the Fused?  They are technically the same things as Returned yet they lose no memories to the transition. Could a part of that be because Returned are returning to their original, if altered body and spren never had a physical form body in the first place? 

These are my thoughts on the matter. Any time one transitions between realms without a perpendicularity, they need an anchor if they wish to avoid the sort of mental degradation we've seen previously.  For the spren the anchor is their chosen Radiant but that anchor is not perfect.  They (the human) aren't really Cognitive specific beings and something gets lost temporarily in transition. For the Returned,  their anchor is damaged through death. They come back to their own modified physical bodies but I imagine death creates a psychic wound that doesn't necessarily heal as fast as a physical wound would. 

So what about our Heralds and Fused? My guess if the theory holds true is that these guys have better anchors than are available to spren and Returned.  For the Heralds I propose that their Honorblades serve the purpose as they are Slivers of Honor in their own right given Physical form. Because they don't have minds to lose they can easily pass between realms with no degradation.  For the Fused their vessels are the anchor. Listeners are halfway Cognitive entities naturally so they can provide a much better foothold for a full Cognitive entity to inhabit, though the host is lost in the process.  However I still think that without that perpendicularity these entities are still sustaining damage.  Their original bodies, having not experienced death trauma,  would have been the perfect anchor but those bodies are long gone.  Their mental degradation therefore is more gradual and increases with every reincarnation.  It manifests as insanity. 

[Honorless he/him]

Hmm... makes me look at the term Iridescent Wave as the equivalent of Shadesmar once the Nalthians become more Realmatically aware

Edited July 7, 2020 by R J

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 hour ago, R J said:

Hmm... makes me look at the term Iridescent Wave as the equivalent of Shadesmar once the Nalthians become more Realmatically aware

That makes it sound like the coolest rave party in the Cosmere. Storms, yes.

[Honorless he/him]

2 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That makes it sound like the coolest rave party in the Cosmere. Storms, yes.

Rave parties? Go to the Darkside of Taldain