Strategy

[Negative_Null]

That's why I'm thinking it might go badly for Venli in RoW. Kaladin and Dalinar will probably push for unity, and try to protect the singers that do come over, but I expect they'll fail at that because it's too hard to protect them from the Fused or Odium himself. Until Jasnah is persuaded and the Radiants actually get a handle on things, I don't see anything like this happening  

[cfphelps]

On 7/7/2020 at 0:57 PM, thejopen27 said:

Neither the Fused nor Odium care what happens to the land or the people, the Radiants do. The Radiants are also bound by oaths that prevent them from behaving dishonorably making them poor at pillaging

Regardless of whether they care about the land or the people, they still need supplies to be an effective fighting force. The number of Fused is still relatively small compared to the whole army of singers, which need to eat. Plus while they may not care about the humans who are slaves and servants, without them to do the work, the function of the army collapses. The point of scorched earth is to prevent the enemy from having the supplies needed to effectively wage war. So I think it would still be effective against the Odium forces. 

 

That said, I agree radiants, especially wind runners, might have moral issues with it, so you might have to run a modified version where things like weapons are stolen or destroyed to prevent their use against the coalition, but that wouldn't directly cause people to suffer. War is war though and any way you slice it, people suffer and die, and not necessarily the ones that have any control or responsibility for the war, as Kaladin has mused in the past. Currently he's having trouble doing the "us vs them" thinking that let him fight before, but book 4 may have him progressing past that hurdle. 

Edited July 11, 2020 by cfphelps

[ConfusedCow]

I'm going to lay out my strategy as if I was Dalinar.  I think the war can be won though a great deal depends on the emerging powers of the radiants, fused, and unmade.  

1) I would send Kaladin, Shallan and Sigzil (with their squires) to Iriali to discover the reason behind their alliance and find a way to disrupt it.  That alliance must be destroyed, war on two sides is never good.  Failing that their team would be instructed to find allies in Iri and conduct reconnaisance.  Shallan's skills with infiltration are obivously neccesary.  She needs transportation and back-up.  Kaladin needs a break from the front lines and some distance from home.  This is a good way to get it.  Sigzil has expertise in culture and language which will be needed.  The alliance between Iri and the singers is not a natural one, it can't last.  Best case scenario Iri switches sides and turns on a large Singer force at a key moment.  

2)   I would send Szeth, Lift and Vstim to Shinovar.  Their goal would be to bring Shinovar into the alliance by any means neccessary.  Lift's skills are a good compliment to Szeth's and they work well together.  Moreover, Szeth needs another radiant to show the leaders of Shinovar.  Vstim has experience with the Shin and negotiating expertise.  I don't know where Nale and the Skybreakers are but Szeth and Lift might give turning Nalan towards the good guys a try.  

3) I would send Jasnah, Adolin, Renarin, and several highprinces (maybe Hatham and Aladar) to Vedenar along with three quarters of my troops and most of my shardbearers.  Their goal is to build a united allied army capable of striking into southern Alethkar and defending Jah Keved.  Adolin would be appointed highprince of war and be in charge of directly training and building up the army and creating a shardbearer strikeforce.   I would focus on training soldiers to fight fused and fight in more irregular battlefields.  This means focusing on small team tactics, heavy infantry and archers, rather than large spear formations. While Adolin secured the allegiance of the soldiers, Jasnah would hold court to secure the allegiance of the highprinces both Veden and Alethi.  Jasnah would also be in charge of watching Taravangian.  He can't be trusted and in truth will probably have to be assassinated at some point, once the alliance is on firmer footing.  Jasnah will have to keep him close but not giving anything away all the time prepared to deal with his treachery.  This is a job no-one else could be trusted with.   Renarin would be of great help to both Jasnah in her research and Adolin.   He could heal many of the Veden's hurt in the civil war thereby earning their good will and allegiance.  As this force grew strong I would have them work on rebuilding Vedena and push into southern Alethkar to recruit refugees into their army and threaten the Singer armies.  I would, however, wait on a major clash until circumstances were heavily in my favor.  

4) I would send Malata, Teft, and Rock too the Horneaters peaks.  Rock would be instructed to unite the Horneaters against any hostile forces and bring them into the alliance.  Malata and Teft would be instructed to carry out reconnaisance and resistance missions into Alethkar.   This fighting will be ugly and horrible.  The humans outnumber the singers by quite a bit and the singers have gathered most of their numbers into a few large armies.  The Singers are spread thin and the humans in Alethkar are dispossessed and angry.   This is an opportunity for resistance movements.  Late night stabbings, burned manor houses, poisoned grain shipments.  Teft and Malata would go from village to village gathering intelligence on the enemy movements planning resistance.  The Singers will respond with butchery against the populace.  Villagers tortured until they turn in their neighbors, public executions, examples.  This fighting is, however, very necessary.  It will hold the Singer armies in Alethkar in place and weaken them substantially.  They will also gather key intelligence.  The need for the windrunners abilities here are obvious.  Malata's destructive abilities will also be put to good use here and she will be kept far from Taravangian.  I would also send Rlain on a long term infiltration mission into Alethkar, with Teft as his handler.   

5) I would send Lopen and his squire team in a similar role to Herdaz to connect with the Alethi forces there, bring Herdaz into the alliance, and begin resistance operations in northern Alethkar.  It would be nice to send someone with him a bit more conventional to represent the alliance, perhaps Captain Colot.

6) I would offer to name Thanadal regent of the shattered plains in the name of Queen Jasnah.  I would insist he pay taxes in the form of gemhearts and send a representative to join the alliance.  I would point out that a large Singer force has relocated towards Natanan and the Shattered plains are now surrounded.  I would leave an occupying force in Narak to hold open the Oathgate, preferably loyal Kholin troops.  

7)  I would name Sebarial administrator of Urithiru.  I would order Sebarial to investigate the secrets of Urithiru and see to it's provisioning and supply. I would name Dalinar (myself) as King of Urithiru, commander of the alliance, and leader of Knights Radiant. Dalinar should renounce all other titles.  Dalinar should also seek some sort of accomodation with the Vorin church.  He needs their support and participation in the alliance.  Some agreement must be possible.  Dalinar should also actively recruit and bring Knights Radiants to the tower and teach them their powers.  This may be his most important task and role.  

8) I would task Queen Fen with creating a navy capable of responding to the Singer's navy.  The Singers must not be allowed to threaten the entire Southern stretch of the Alliance.  

9) I would have Navani continue organizing the research into Fabrial technology, Urithiru, and means of capturing the unmade.  Kharbranth and Azimir may have scholars who can help. 

10) I would have Azir muster their forces in Azimir where they can respond to either a force moving north from Tukar or Singers moving South from Yulay.  They could also move quickly through the Oathgate to reinforce other cities.  

The Singers are heavily outnumbered by the humans. Dalinar does have superior force mobility with the oathgates. If Dalinar can prolong the conflict and build support he stands a good chance of winning a war of attrition.  The Singers meanwhile will have to rely on quick decisive pushes and whatever horrors Odium can conjur.  Dalinar should avoid  a crushing defeat in Vedenar at all costs.  Dalinar should not send his forces on reckless counter attack toward Kholinar.  Once Dalinar gets the allegiance of Iri or Shinovar he can reconsider his options and try for something more aggressive.

[Negative_Null]

That's... very well thought out. I feel like you're leaving out the Unmade and whatever Odium has planned, but since we still know so little about those, I can't blame you.

I feel like the crux of most of these arguments is the need for information. We still don't have enough even as the readers

[Karger]

32 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

1) I would send Kaladin, Shallan and Sigzil (with their squires) to Iriali to discover the reason behind their alliance and find a way to disrupt it.  That alliance must be destroyed, war on two sides is never good.  Failing that their team would be instructed to find allies in Iri and conduct reconnaisance.  Shallan's skills with infiltration are obivously neccesary.  She needs transportation and back-up.  Kaladin needs a break from the front lines and some distance from home.  This is a good way to get it.  Sigzil has expertise in culture and language which will be needed.  The alliance between Iri and the singers is not a natural one, it can't last.  Best case scenario Iri switches sides and turns on a large Singer force at a key moment.  

I agree that Windrunners offer a never before opportunity to discover information but none of the people on your team are natives.  Still figuring this out would be a good idea.

34 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

2)   I would send Szeth, Lift and Vstim to Shinovar.  Their goal would be to bring Shinovar into the alliance by any means neccessary.  Lift's skills are a good compliment to Szeth's and they work well together.  Moreover, Szeth needs another radiant to show the leaders of Shinovar.  Vstim has experience with the Shin and negotiating expertise.  I don't know where Nale and the Skybreakers are but Szeth and Lift might give turning Nalan towards the good guys a try.  

Szeth is currently unavailable.  Otherwise I would agree.

36 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

The Singers are heavily outnumbered by the humans. Dalinar does have superior force mobility with the oathgates. If Dalinar can prolong the conflict and build support he stands a good chance of winning a war of attrition.  The Singers meanwhile will have to rely on quick decisive pushes and whatever horrors Odium can conjur.  Dalinar should avoid  a crushing defeat in Vedenar at all costs.  Dalinar should not send his forces on reckless counter attack toward Kholinar.  Once Dalinar gets the allegiance of Iri or Shinovar he can reconsider his options and try for something more aggressive.

The two major problems that I see with your strategy are firstly that it leaves Urithiru dangerously low of Radiants and secondly you are assuming that the enemy is going to be passive.  With no knowledge of when or how new ones will show up your deployment of radiants that means your best and most important assets are at risk and irreplaceable.  You also don't know enemy plans nor can you easily disrupt or intercept their communications as those are handled by fused.  The inverse does not hold true.  Plenty of humans have switched sides and they have access to future sight. 

 

I personally would probably be more reactive.  I would keep the Radiants close to Urithiru as they trained and focus on protecting assets and learning about the enemy.  I would also look into contacting the spren about getting more radiants and research into fabrails like you said.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

I personally would probably be more reactive.  I would keep the Radiants close to Urithiru as they trained and focus on protecting assets and learning about the enemy.  I would also look into contacting the spren about getting more radiants and research into fabrails like you said.

There has to be some benefit of joining Dalinar's coalition, it's basically a mutual defense pact. Spanreed communication is instantaneous, commanders on the field can be recalled/redeployed. @ConfusedCow's tactics seem sound, except for maybe relegating Dalinar to the Tower. He's a proven field commander and can recharge Radiants, he should be in command of the most important assault, probably the mission to the Horneater peaks. He should also be accompanied by a Windrunner capable of aerial intelligence gathering and moving him around the battlefield and possibly taking him back to the tower to address important concerns. From the field he can still address leaders of the coalition through his High Storm communicator if necessary.

Sigzil and Zahel should be in charge of training radiant recruits.

The only other modifications I would make to your battleplan, confusedcow, would be twofold,

1) Charge Queen Fen with managing the finances of the coalition, including regulating the gemsupply for soulcast reprovisioning and the gemsupply for stormlight consumption. There probably already are speculative Thaylen merchants trading in their reserves for higher denomination and better quality gems, because in a world were Stormlight is power the gems that can hold more of it and can hold it longer are going to be more valuable. Also gemhearts, with their increased soulcasting capacity, are going to be even more valuable and essential.

2) Diplomatic efforts to bring the Singers to the side of the humans should be pursued in earnest. Venli's interludes showed that Odium understood the need to wage a propaganda war, the humans likewise need to make this realization. Venli switching sides and maintaining envoy form will go a long ways towards achieving this, and the locating and deploying of Rlain to convince the Singers of the dangers of siding with Odium should be a top coalition objective along this line too. Hopefully the large number of recently restored singers will realize it's in their interests to join Dalinar'coalition , it would be pretty brutal if their journey from labotomized slaves just ends with them becoming grist for the mill of war. 

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

There has to be some benefit of joining Dalinar's coalition, it's basically a mutual defense pact

Sure.  I just think they should stay defensive.

21 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

He's a proven field commander and can recharge Radiants, he should be in command of the most important assault, probably the mission to the Horneater peaks

What happens if he is lost?  His death would bring down the coalition.  There are no other bondsmiths and there is no clear succession of command for the radiants.  He can advise via spanread(the character young Dalinar is based on actually did this winning battles many miles apart by giving careful instructions to subordinates through relay riders) but risking him on the front lines does not seem smart.  It also squanders his political value.

 

A thing we all missed so far is that Urithiru and the radiants themselves should work to increase their standing as well as make it harder to leave the coalition.  Acting as a neutral party in disputes, gangrening financial and treaty agreements, as well as perhaps arranging for some good marriages are all ways to keep the coalition from flying apart next time Taravangian tries somthing.

[ConfusedCow]

The benefit to joining the alliance is "If you join, some of us might live".  Though I agree with all of hoiditthroughthegrapevine's other points.  I didn't think about using Dalinar as a military asset and I'm not sure how I'd use him.  

[Karger]

6 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

The benefit to joining the alliance is "If you join, some of us might live".

Is it?  They also gain trade through the oathgates, easy access to powerful colleagues and acsess to the latest reaserch in several increasingly important fields.

6 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

I didn't think about using Dalinar as a military asset and I'm not sure how I'd use him.  

For starters have him evaluate and coordinate the battle plans so that everyone can support each other and not get in each others way.  He also might be able to coordinate battles remotely through spanreads given good enough observers and if the fighting gets near an oathgate he can recharge radiants during battle.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

23 hours ago, Karger said:

What happens if he is lost?  His death would bring down the coalition.  There are no other bondsmiths and there is no clear succession of command for the radiants.  He can advise via spanread(the character young Dalinar is based on actually did this winning battles many miles apart by giving careful instructions to subordinates through relay riders) but risking him on the front lines does not seem smart.  It also squanders his political value.

Those are good points, but he is nearly unkillable. If he's a serious enough target Odium (as he as already shown himself capable of doing by the stealing of Jezrien's blade) could still get to him in Urithiru. With his power set, he is basically the queen on the chessboard, to not utilize him is an oppurtunity cost that Roshar can probably ill afford. He's the best general on Roshar, battle proven in the wars of unification and the wars of the shattered plains, and a mobile battery of stormlight. Making sure he is well protected is paramount, but to not use him would be like having a dawnshard and using it as a paperweight.

23 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

I didn't think about using Dalinar as a military asset and I'm not sure how I'd use him.  

I think there are a couple of ways that his abilities could best be utilized, some are based more on speculative probabilities than others.

1) Based on his powers displayed in Oathbringer, its a given that he can supercharge Radiants with stormlight. This is functionally different than drawing stormlight from infused gems, he was able to give Kaladin enough investiture to fly half a continent away to find Drehy and Skar. So one definite use would be to use him as the the central hub to a large radiant strike force, operational command of elite forces and provision of stormlight.

2) Like Caesar, he commands the loyalty of the soldiers who are fighting for him. This is more speculative to be sure, but if Jasnah has mastered her Elsecaller surges and is able to use transportation to move around Roshar quickly with others in tow, he could basically be the ultimate field commander, present at every battle that he is needed, including the political ones (which are just as dangerous) back at the tower. It seems likely to me that transportation should be usable for more than just the transitioning between realms, and this would be a very cool application of that surge.

3) This has been removed, because it references the Syl interlude that just came out, RoW spoilers are only allowed in the RoW spoiler forum, spoiler tags aren't enough. 

4) All major treaties, compacts and alliances should be arbited by Dalinar. This is speculative, but a bondsmith bonded to the cognitive shadow of the shard of binding contracts should by his sanctification of the contract entered into impart at the very least some sort of negative consequence to any party that breaks their sworn commitment. He would be the ultimate notary public.

*Edited to remove RoW spoiler, as per Chaos these have to be confined to the RoW spoiler Board, spoiler tags aren't enough*

Edited July 16, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Corrected the reference to the blade stolen at Urithiru, thanks Karger!

[Karger]

10 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

as he as already shown himself capable of doing by the stealing of Talns blade)

We don't know who has Taln's blade.  I assume you mean Jes's but that was only accomplished with Taravangian's help and Dalinar does not trust him anymore.

10 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

his power set, he is basically the queen on the chessboard, to not utilize him is an oppurtunity cost that Roshar can probably ill afford. He's the best general on Roshar, battle proven in the wars of unification and the wars of the shattered plains, and a mobile battery of stormlight. Making sure he is well protected is paramount, but to not use him would be like having a dawnshard and using it as a paperweight.

But his value is like a king on the chessboard.  Risking him is foolish.  He is the only one ever to do direct damage to Odium himself.

[+Bzhydack]

21 hours ago, ConfusedCow said:

3) I would send Jasnah, Adolin, Renarin, and several highprinces (maybe Hatham and Aladar) to Vedenar along with three quarters of my troops and most of my shardbearers.  Their goal is to build a united allied army capable of striking into southern Alethkar and defending Jah Keved.  Adolin would be appointed highprince of war and be in charge of directly training and building up the army and creating a shardbearer strikeforce.   I would focus on training soldiers to fight fused and fight in more irregular battlefields.  This means focusing on small team tactics, heavy infantry and archers, rather than large spear formations. While Adolin secured the allegiance of the soldiers, Jasnah would hold court to secure the allegiance of the highprinces both Veden and Alethi.  Jasnah would also be in charge of watching Taravangian.  He can't be trusted and in truth will probably have to be assassinated at some point, once the alliance is on firmer footing.  Jasnah will have to keep him close but not giving anything away all the time prepared to deal with his treachery.  This is a job no-one else could be trusted with.   Renarin would be of great help to both Jasnah in her research and Adolin.   He could heal many of the Veden's hurt in the civil war thereby earning their good will and allegiance.  As this force grew strong I would have them work on rebuilding Vedena and push into southern Alethkar to recruit refugees into their army and threaten the Singer armies.  I would, however, wait on a major clash until circumstances were heavily in my favor.  

What about Frostlands? This is large area, and is between Kharbranth, Alethkar, Thaylen and Narak. Yes, its not many here, but it will be important, because can connect Dalinars Aliance terrains. Know we something about New Natanan and how they can contribute? They seems to be water power, and combine with Thaylen Aliance can have really large fleet, and maybe Stormfather will be able to carry ships. It is also unclear how important Natans can be, with their Aimian Blood.

Also, Southern Althkar. When i look at map, hit me one place. Rathalas. This town can be very important for human campaign, when captured and fortified can literaly cut whole Alethkar on half. Its smowhat ironic and also poethic, that city burned to the ground by Dalinar influenced by Odium can become the most important place in campaign against Odium and key to very big part of Alethkar.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

, its not many here, but it will be important, because can connect Dalinars Aliance terrains

It is sparely settled and extremely cold.  Also very little food grows there.  Yes soulcasters can get offset that but I doubt the fused want to go there anymore then Dalinar's army does.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Know we something about New Natanan and how they can contribute?

They are not usually taken seriously by larger nations.  They do have a navy but it was likely decimated by the everstorm, they had no warning that it was coming and the singer population would probably have stolen any remaining boats as they did in Theylenah.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

and maybe Stormfather will be able to carry ships.

The Stormfather is not allowing Dalinar to manipulate or even know of the highstorms.  He also seems pretty convinced that humans sailing during storms is bad.

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Also, Southern Althkar. When i look at map, hit me one place. Rathalas. This town can be very important for human campaign, when captured and fortified can literaly cut whole Alethkar on half. Its smowhat ironic and also poethic, that city burned to the ground by Dalinar influenced by Odium can become the most important place in campaign against Odium and key to very big part of Alethkar.

Agreed.  The crownlands are also probably less populated then the rest of Alethkar and might be a good place to settle refugees.