Elsecaller_17.5 he/him Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 @ConfusedCow let's just agree to disagree. 2
Greywatch she/her Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 1 hour ago, ConfusedCow said: In our quest to find Jasnah's motivation, let us pause to consider why she wants Shallan to study the ethics here. Jasnah claims "There will be times when you must make decisions that churn your stomach, Shallan Davar. I'll have you ready to make those decisions" (WOR 549). Jasnah is not refering to a hypothetical future or some neccesary quality of scholars. Jasnah is focused on her goal. She is talking about when she asks Shallan to join her in killing all of the parshmen. She wants to test whether Shallan has the mindset to join her in that terrible task. Jasnah's stomach churns at the thought and she wants to debate the matter with Shallan so she can be certain in her convinction. Perhaps she even wants to be talked out of it or forgiven. This is all a lot of conjecture; they're theories, but guesses shouldn't be used to make claims about the text. There isn't any indication that Jasnah's secret ulterior purpose is to turn Shallan into a killer; in fact, she's determined to have Shallan develop her own moral code. Jasnah doesn't want Shallan to be a follower, she wants Shallan to think for herself, even if that means she disagrees with Jasnah. She doesn't need Shallan to be certain in her convictions, she's already convicted. That aspect of how she teaches Shallan is made very clear during Way of Kings. I don't see any evidence of Jasnah's churning stomach; either killing these four men, or in suggesting to kill the listeners. I feel that Jasnah being secretly torn up about it makes it more palatable for you, but that's not in the text. Quote Consider the theater of the act. They walk towards the theater district. Jasnah wears a "beautiful dress of violet and gold" (WOR 543). Jasnah deliberately witholds her purpose and raises the tension, "How foolish would you say it is for us to come here, ..." (WOR 545). All the while she waxes philosophically about religion and youth, while the night air blows in her hair. She even gives herself an audiance. Jasnah is in her element. She is enjoying herself. She feels good, freshly bathed, relaxed, teaching, contemplating killing. Yes, she is "hard and grim" (WOR 546) in the actual moment, but Jasnah enjoyed this. Why? This seems like a reach to me. Confidence is not enjoyment, and she dresses and acts the way she always acts up until the killing. She is not putting anything "on" for this. Quote What motivations are left? Self defense? that's a legal argument not a motivation for deliberately creating that situation. Jasnah's quest for social justice, building a better Kharbranth? Doubtful, there are better ways she could do this. She could pressure the city guard to reform for example, so that when she leaves other thieves don't just move in. Alternatively, she could with soulcasting give generously to people in poverty. Either would be more effective in the long term than vigilantism. Recall that Jasnah thinks big. Big problems, big solutions, she doesn't waste time. Perhaps Jasnah had some arcane motive. She could have wanted to test her soulcasting? Or investigate Shallan's loyalty and powers. Perhaps she believed those thieves to be operating for the ghostbloods or some other secret sect. All these are possible but unlikely and hardly exonerating. On the contrary: Jasnah never says she's there to make a better Kharbranth. Her example she gave was small-scale - not eradicating poverty and crime in Kharbranth, but saving the next barmaid who took a wrong turn. She never claims to want to make Kharbranth a better place. In fact, she's also very clear in WoK that she can't stay for very long in Kharbranth and regrets the lack of time she has for longer, bigger projects. It's why she limits herself to short-term actions. One of those short-term actions is killing the murderers directly instead of trying to systemically root out crime. Jasnah never tries to exonerate herself. She is direct and straightforward. She wanted those specific men dead, and she went to go do that without any fuss at all. Quote "..."Besides, men like those ..." There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before. What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. " (WOR 549) Then later "I sincerely wanted those men gone." This fleeting glimpse of emotion which Jasnah quickly silences, reveal more than all of Jasnah's eloquent philosophy. Jasnah is the victim of some horrible abuse, probably sexual in nature. Note how Jasnah's play casts her as a victim lashing out at her assailants. She does not simply stalk these men down and jump them. She enjoyed this because it is emotionally cathartic to kill these men. She is rewriting her own history. Jasnah's trauma is probably both her best and worst reason for killing. It is the most emotionally appealing but the least logically forgivable. Here is the real moral question here. Is violence as vengeance for abuse justified? I hesitate to answer. I have no personal experience with abuse. I do not truly understand the pain it leaves behind. I think, no. While I sympathize with Jasnah's murderous fury, even forgive it, I cannot condone it. Shallan could do worse than repeat Hoid's words to her "Accept the pain, but don't accept that you deserved it. (OB 855) " We don't know what Jasnah's past is, and even Shallan is making leaps, trying to guess at it based solely on Jasnah's emotion in this scene. Pain, yes, but also anger. Those words from Hoid were for Shallan; Jasnah is in an entirely different life scenario, and as far as we know, those words don't apply to Jasnah's situation. 3
Pathfinder Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, ConfusedCow said: Ah Pathfinder, we have locked antlers a bit haven't we. I hope you don't think I am fighting you or such, because that was not my intention. Quote I generally like to paint a broad picture and let others fill in the details, but perhaps a close line by line analysis will speak to you. Let us consider Jasnah's motivations, because on this question morality turns. Why did Jasnah kill in that alleyway? Jasnah tells us but as always actions speak louder than words. Jasnah with emotionless eyes claims "I did not do this just to prove a point, child. I have been feeling for some time that I took advantage of His Majesty's hospitality. He doesn't realize how much trouble he could face for allying himself with me. Besides, men like those ... "(WOR 549). So Jasnah's explanation of her motivation is that she was doing Taravangian a political favor. I don't doubt that this is true, but it also cannot be her real motivation. A princess killing thieves as a kind of political favor? Plus, it doesn't really help Taravangian. It doesn't make him a stronger king or ward off Jasnah's enemies. If Jasnah wanted to do Taravangian a favor she had plenty of other, better means at her disposal. Jasnah is setting Shallan an academic exercise and not being not entirely genuine about its purpose or her opinion. "She [Jasnah] wasn't necessarily advocating ideas because she believed them; she just wanted to push Shallan" (WOR 543). So personally I interpret this differently. For myself, a political favor involves a political benefit in some manner. A president pardoning someone, or helping another get elected (as I type this I realize it could be construed as in reference to the real world, and just want to clarify it is not). Viewing it in that lense, for myself, what Jasnah did was not a political favor. What political advantage would it give either of them? (as you yourself pointed out). Stopping those criminals won't make Vorinism not treat Taravangian poorly. It won't make the lighteyes listen to him. However, Jasnah, as she understands Taravangian at the time sees him as: “Besides,” Jasnah said, “I believe you might have made Taravangian laugh. He seems haunted by something lately.” “You don’t find him dull, then?” Shallan asked, curious. She herself didn’t think the king dull or a fool, but she’d thought someone as intelligent and learned as Jasnah might not have patience for a man like him. “Taravangian is a wonderful man,” Jasnah said, “and worth a hundred self-proclaimed experts on courtly ways. He reminds me of my uncle Dalinar. Earnest, sincere, concerned.” “The lighteyes here say he’s weak,” Shallan said. “Because he panders to so many other monarchs, because he fears war, because he doesn’t have a Shardblade.” Jasnah didn’t reply, though she looked disturbed. “Brightness?” Shallan prodded, walking to her own seat and arranging her charcoals. “In ancient days,” Jasnah said, “a man who brought peace to his kingdom was considered to be of great worth. Now that same man would be derided as a coward.” She shook her head. “It has been centuries coming, this change. It should terrify us. We could do with more men like Taravangian, and I shall require you to never call him dull again, not even in passing.” “Yes, Brightness,” Shallan said, bowing her head. Jasnah does not see Taravangian as a political ally. She sees him as good man, advocating for peace and truly loving his people. She sees someone she respects and cares for being troubled and hurt by his people being harmed and he being powerless to stop it. To Jasnah, Taravangian has not only done her a good turn, but has risked himself to do it with no expectation of recompense. The least she can do is try to alleviate some of the things causing him upset: those men are off the street. The people of this city are that much safer. The issue that Taravangian has been so worried about has been solved, and no more theatergoers will fall to those thugs. How many lives did I just save? I find it interesting that what classically is the Socratic Method (or at least how I see Jasnah teaches Shallan) in such a negative light. But I shall continue on that with your further comment below Quote In our quest to find Jasnah's motivation, let us pause to consider why she wants Shallan to study the ethics here. Jasnah claims "There will be times when you must make decisions that churn your stomach, Shallan Davar. I'll have you ready to make those decisions" (WOR 549). Jasnah is not refering to a hypothetical future or some neccesary quality of scholars. Jasnah is focused on her goal. She is talking about when she asks Shallan to join her in killing all of the parshmen. She wants to test whether Shallan has the mindset to join her in that terrible task. Jasnah's stomach churns at the thought and she wants to debate the matter with Shallan so she can be certain in her convinction. Perhaps she even wants to be talked out of it or forgiven. That certainly is an interesting way to interpret things. Though I would say the fact that Jasnah at no point prevented Shallan from running to the authorities, nor attempted to force her own view on Shallan speaks to otherwise. The Socratic Method (if you already know what it is, this is not meant to educate you but define it in order to show how it applies to this situation) is a form of cooperative argumentative dialogue between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking. and to draw out ideas and underlying principles. The point of such a method, is to cause the individual being taught to come to their own conclusions via their own reasoning, rather than just parroting back what they are told. Thereby if Shallan ends up having the same thoughts as Jasnah, it is because Shallan has using her own reasoning and logic, come to the same conclusions. Jasnah never tells Shallan what she is allowed to think. All Jasnah asks, is that Shallan comes to those thoughts through critical thinking and research. By the end of the exercise, Shallan thinks Jasnah is wrong. Jasnah thinks Shallan is wrong. But states at the end of the day, what matters is that Shallan went through the work, and really thought on it, without someone else telling her what to think. The true goal of a scholar and a scientist. The pursuit of knowledge. Finally, Jasnah nodded, then returned to her research. “You have nothing to say?” Shallan said. “I just accused you of murder.” “No,” Jasnah said, “murder is a legal definition. You said I killed unethically.” “You think I’m wrong, I assume?” “You are,” Jasnah said. “But I accept that you believe what you are saying and have put rational thought behind it. I have looked over your notes, and I believe you understand the various philosophies. In some cases, I think that you were quite insightful in your interpretation of them. The lesson was instructive.” She opened her book. “Then that’s it?” “Of course not,” Jasnah said. “We will study philosophy further in the future; for now, I’m satisfied that you have established a solid foundation in the topic.” “But I still decided you were wrong. I still think there’s an absolute Truth out there.” “Yes,” Jasnah said, “and it took you two weeks of struggling to come to that conclusion.” Jasnah looked up, meeting Shallan’s eyes. “It wasn’t easy, was it?” “No.” “And you still wonder, don’t you?” “Yes.” “That is enough.” Here is a quote where Jasnah goes in depth on everything I just said. What was it that Jasnah wanted her to do with the information? Once again, she felt a stab of guilt. Jasnah was taking great pains to instruct her in scholarship, and she was going to reward the woman by stealing her most valuable possession and leaving a broken replacement. It made Shallan feel sick. She had expected study beneath Jasnah to involve meaningless memorization and busywork, accompanied by chastisement for not being smart enough. That was how her tutors had approached her instruction. Jasnah was different. She gave Shallan a topic and the freedom to pursue it as she wished. Jasnah offered encouragement and speculation, but nearly all of their conversations turned to topics like the true nature of scholarship, the purpose of studying, the beauty of knowledge and its application. Jasnah Kholin truly loved learning, and she wanted others to as well. Behind the stern gaze, intense eyes, and rarely smiling lips, Jasnah Kholin truly believed in what she was doing. Quote What motivations are left? Self defense? that's a legal argument not a motivation for deliberately creating that situation. Jasnah's quest for social justice, building a better Kharbranth? Doubtful, there are better ways she could do this. She could pressure the city guard to reform for example, so that when she leaves other thieves don't just move in. Alternatively, she could with soulcasting give generously to people in poverty. Either would be more effective in the long term than vigilantism. Recall that Jasnah thinks big. Big problems, big solutions, she doesn't waste time. Perhaps Jasnah had some arcane motive. She could have wanted to test her soulcasting? Or investigate Shallan's loyalty and powers. Perhaps she believed those thieves to be operating for the ghostbloods or some other secret sect. All these are possible but unlikely and hardly exonerating. One point of order here, is though yes Jasnah was the architect of the scenario by choosing to walk down that street, that at the same time does not mean she created that situation. The murderers at no time were under any compulsion from Jasnah to: 1. follow her 2. bring lethal weapons 3. surround her 4. attack her All those actions were entirely their own. Now I already explained why I believe she went to the ally. To stop people from being killed, and to cause Taravangian to no longer be pained at his people being hurt and being unable to stop it. But to continue with your line of reasoning, she could not have pressured the city guard to reform. It is not her city. she would need to declare that the Alethi nation are moving to take over the city in order to take such immediate form of reform. She could not just come in and tell the city guard it has to reform. The captain is connected to a powerful lighteyes. So powerful the King himself cannot do anything, so why should we believe a foreign dignitary could? Jasnah could advocate for change and reform legally, and through the proper channels, but that would take months if not years. During which more people would die, and she would be unable to pursue her research in trying to stop the end of the world. True she could soulcast food and water, but Kharbranth is not an impoverished nation. It uses the funds it makes from the Palananeum to fund its free health care and presumably other social works. That still would not change that the captain of the guard is protected, and that that street is not being patrolled and that people are being killed that walk it. So to me, none of that would be more effective given the circumstances than what Jasnah did. To me it couldn't be to test the soulcaster, because Shallan has observed Jasnah doing so on multiple occasions. She soulcast the boulder, she soulcast wine to a paperweight, she soulcast words onto paper, she soulcast paper to fire when she was done with it. Jasnah has already extensively practiced with her soulcasting and has shown such a level of precision that it surprised Shallan ( writing on the paper via soulcasting). As to testing Shallan's loyalty? As mentioned in a prior post, even a 1% chance is still a chance, so I readily admit Jasnah could be doing this. Jasnah could be the ultimate big bad evil at the end of the stormlight, and everything we have ever heard and read from Jasnah was all part of a master plot to mislead us all along till the great reveal. Totally possible. Just for myself, it is not plausible. We (albeit rare) do get Jasnah's PoVs. We see and here how she genuinely cares for Shallan. How Jasnah genuinely admonishes herself for seemingly failing with her teaching of Shallan (during Oathbringer as Shallan regresses). Her concern for Shallan, and genuinely wanting to try and be a better teacher to help Shallan. All from her own mind. Now I suppose Jasnah is making up these thoughts in preparation for some entity that can read minds, but personally I find that far fetched, So for myself, I do not think the entire occurrence was done to manipulate Shallan into doing what Jasnah wants. Quote Consider the theater of the act. They walk towards the theater district. Jasnah wears a "beautiful dress of violet and gold" (WOR 543). Jasnah deliberately witholds her purpose and raises the tension, "How foolish would you say it is for us to come here, ..." (WOR 545). All the while she waxes philosophically about religion and youth, while the night air blows in her hair. She even gives herself an audiance. Jasnah is in her element. She is enjoying herself. She feels good, freshly bathed, relaxed, teaching, contemplating killing. Yes, she is "hard and grim" (WOR 546) in the actual moment, but Jasnah enjoyed this. Why? That is assuming she planned for that moment to occur at that moment and set up Shallan all along. Which as I said above certainly is possible, but for myself, based on everything else we are privileged to know, I believe it to be improbable and implausible. Jasnah is dressed beautifully, because we know that is a character trait of hers. Always presenting herself put together and in control. It was how she was trained and raised. She teaches this to Shallan on the ship when they leave Kharbranth, and Shallan having learned that lesson, uses it to save her own life after the ship wreck, and save the caravaners lives later on. Quote "..."Besides, men like those ..." There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before. What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. " (WOR 549) Then later "I sincerely wanted those men gone." Yep, I would agree those quotes portray a sense of history and a degree of Post Traumatic Stress disorder. Jasnah has been hurt in the past. However..... Quote This fleeting glimpse of emotion which Jasnah quickly silences, reveal more than all of Jasnah's eloquent philosophy. Jasnah is the victim of some horrible abuse, probably sexual in nature. Note how Jasnah's play casts her as a victim lashing out at her assailants. I believe it is a stretch given all the other information we have to say that is the sole reason she has done so, and she arranged the entire scenario to play out exactly as it did. Despite Jasnah's powers she lacks one crucial one: mind control. At no point did she coerce or force those individual to again: 1. follow her 2. bring lethal weapons 3. surround her 4. attack her Quote She does not simply stalk these men down and jump them. She enjoyed this because it is emotionally cathartic to kill these men. She is rewriting her own history. Jasnah's trauma is probably both her best and worst reason for killing. But if that is the case, how did she rewrite it by having those men follow her, bring lethal weapons, surround her, and attack her? Presenting this as you have removes the agency of the murderers. They are not robots that she programmed to play out a role so she can come across sympathetic. This was not a stage play to rewrite how the story plays out where she gets the desirable result. Those men still had to act. They still had to choose. Jasnah traveling to that alley could have just as easily passed through with nothing happening at all. But those men chose to watch that alley. Shallan confirmed it was not the men from the bar earlier. So these individuals staked out the area, and were prepared with weapons. Their intentions were clear. The only variable in this case is who walked down that alley. Had Jasnah not, someone else would have, and they would have died. Quote It is the most emotionally appealing but the least logically forgivable. Here is the real moral question here. Is violence as vengeance for abuse justified? I hesitate to answer. I have no personal experience with abuse. I do not truly understand the pain it leaves behind. I think, no. While I sympathize with Jasnah's murderous fury, even forgive it, I cannot condone it. Shallan could do worse than repeat Hoid's words to her "Accept the pain, but don't accept that you deserved it. (OB 855) " In some countries on Earth as well as some countries on Roshar, yes it is. There is the "battered wife" defense, which states that even if the individual is not in a clear and current present threat and kills their abuser, given the physical and psychological abuse the individual has ungone, a court will rule in favor of the individual. In Alethkar, an individual that has been wronged by another (Tanalan's son), can challenge the injuring party to a duel as recompense. And duels to the death are very much on the table. But finally, as you are going for the moral angle, this is not violence as vengeance for the abuse. These are not the same individuals that abused her. She is not getting vengeance against her abusers. She is however preventing the abuse from occurring to other individuals. Quote This turned into a really long post. Thank you for reading it. I enjoy this discussion. Also, considering this made me think that Taravangian might have been trying to recruit Jasnah to the Diagram?! As per WoB, Taravangian knew that Jasnah was a radiant already. If his intention was to recruit her, he would be at the invitation/overture stage, not the investigation stage. Happy to read it and glad you are enjoying the discussion. Not intending to end the discussion here, but I would highly recommend you read my older thread "Jasnah More than Meets the Eye". That thread delves deeper into Jasnah's character, motivations, and actions. I recommend the thread because I made the point of getting every quote that mentions Jasnah across all three books (WoK, WoR, O) and included those quotes in the post. The intent was that if people disagree, all the quotes are available and readily apparent to reference and discuss, instead of going on memory and colored personal recollection. The quotes can be objectively read by both parties, and then from a shared source provide different interpretations. I hope you do consider reading it, and I wish you well. https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/84071-jasnah-more-than-meets-the-eye/#comment-830297 Edited June 27, 2020 by Pathfinder 5
CosmereanAntelope he/him Posted June 29, 2020 Posted June 29, 2020 We should've let Ham answer that question... Oh, wait.
Karger he/him Posted June 30, 2020 Posted June 30, 2020 (edited) On 6/27/2020 at 1:33 AM, ConfusedCow said: So Jasnah's explanation of her motivation is that she was doing Taravangian a political favor. I don't doubt that this is true, but it also cannot be her real motivation. A princess killing thieves as a kind of political favor? Plus, it doesn't really help Taravangian. It doesn't make him a stronger king or ward off Jasnah's enemies It allows him to solve a problem without expending political capital. That absolutely qualifies as a favor in my book. Taravangian may not be an overtly powerful king but he still is a king. If he really wanted to he could probably make an enormous fuss and get that entire city block torn apart. Doing so however would expend a huge amount of goodwill and make his subjects less likely to obey him. Jasnah solving the problem on her own initiative makes it so the problem is solved. On 6/27/2020 at 1:33 AM, ConfusedCow said: In our quest to find Jasnah's motivation, let us pause to consider why she wants Shallan to study the ethics here. Jasnah claims "There will be times when you must make decisions that churn your stomach, Shallan Davar. I'll have you ready to make those decisions" (WOR 549). Jasnah is not refering to a hypothetical future or some neccesary quality of scholars. Jasnah is focused on her goal. She is talking about when she asks Shallan to join her in killing all of the parshmen. She wants to test whether Shallan has the mindset to join her in that terrible task. Jasnah's stomach churns at the thought and she wants to debate the matter with Shallan so she can be certain in her convinction. Perhaps she even wants to be talked out of it or forgiven. I think it more likely that Jasnah is referring to politics in general. Remember she was an effective political operator for years and in her notes just said that Sadeas was intelligent but not to be trusted. Edited June 30, 2020 by Karger
Eggdogg Posted July 7, 2020 Posted July 7, 2020 The problem for me is premeditation. Premeditated falls on the negative and authoritative side of things. 1
first void Posted July 12, 2020 Posted July 12, 2020 A point of view: it is done, and cannot be undone, so to ponder longer is pointless. Instead, use it to consider the future. The past is dead, the future unknown, but the present is alive.
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