Why is Sadeas' camp so disorganized

[Gray to he/him]

This is probably not a very important question, but its one that's been bugging throughout my quarantine reread. Why is Sadeas' camp so disorganized? His markets are sloppy and randomly put together, his soldiers go around without taking good care of their uniforms, and their disheveled environment encourages them to be unprofessional and drunk. Surely Sadeas knows that enforcing some rules would make his soldiers more effective? So why does he do it? The only reason I could think of was to be a contrast to Dalinar's army and show the war camps how needless his Codes are. But it seems to me that there are too many negatives in having a sloppy camp that makes proving a point worth it. And everyone know Dalinar has the best troops in the armies anyways, so why bother with it?

[Destruction he/him]

I think the reason is to show that Sadeas thinks that he is a great soldier but doesn't actually able to do it. He pretends that he is amazing but doesn't actually care in order to discipline his soldiers. He might think that it doesn't actually matter because he is so far ahead of his enemies that he doesn't want to aggravating towards his soldiers. 

20 minutes ago, Gray to said:

And everyone know Dalinar has the best troops in the armies anyways, so why bother with it?

One thing to remember is that maybe that we "know" that he has the best armies but in the rest of the war camps minds they have a pretty good army who is led by the hands of a former drunk who won't even lead his armies out to battle. In a warrior based society the people think that strength is power. Dalinar's troops have not proven themselves recently and therefore some of the people think that they are weak. 

Sadeas is a greater politician then general I think so It makes since that he is unwilling to control his troops. and he instead expands effort towards becoming king basically.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 hour ago, Gray to said:

This is probably not a very important question, but its one that's been bugging throughout my quarantine reread. Why is Sadeas' camp so disorganized? His markets are sloppy and randomly put together, his soldiers go around without taking good care of their uniforms, and their disheveled environment encourages them to be unprofessional and drunk. Surely Sadeas knows that enforcing some rules would make his soldiers more effective? So why does he do it? The only reason I could think of was to be a contrast to Dalinar's army and show the war camps how needless his Codes are. But it seems to me that there are too many negatives in having a sloppy camp that makes proving a point worth it. And everyone know Dalinar has the best troops in the armies anyways, so why bother with it?

It is not necessary. They are good enough for the job. Sadeas does not aim for the best troops. He wants the cheapest troops that get the job done. Simple efficiency.

[Frustration]

Because that's what he did when Gavilar was conquering Alethkar.

[Hen she/her]

He and the other highprinces think of the war as a game. Sadeas simply doesnt care enough to train his troops well, he prefers quality not quantity. HIs soldiers are also a reflection of his personality. they are sloppy, uncaring, and rude, just like him. It's one of the ways they Brandon showed that Sadeas doesn't care about honor, he cares about money. It's cheaper to have a sloppy camp, because he doesn't have to keep it clean. 

[Karger he/him]

Oathbringer sheds some light.

Quote

“They feel like gangs,” Shallan said softly, looking over her shoulder at one group.

“Don’t mistake them,” Adolin said. “They march in step, their boots are sturdy, and their weapons well maintained. Sadeas trained good soldiers. It’s just that where Father used discipline, Sadeas used competition. Besides, here, looking too clean will get you mocked. You can’t be mistaken for a Kholin.”

Basically it is a form of negative solidarity.  By being us we can be better then them.  However if you look or act like them then you are not us.  Sadeas just needed them to be aggressive and reasonably capable.  He did not care what they were besides that and spent no effort creating esprit de corps or a sense of pride in themselves or each other.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Karger

[Naurock]

10 hours ago, Gray to said:

Why is Sadeas' camp so disorganized? His markets are sloppy and randomly put together

I think that's because he didn't expect them to become permanent. It was all an afterthought after becoming rich from gemhearts.

10 hours ago, Gray to said:

his soldiers go around without taking good care of their uniforms, and their disheveled environment encourages them to be unprofessional and drunk.

To be fair, why maintain a nice uniform? Nobody else in your camp does, so it would open you up to mockery. Also, you're just going to go into battle again at the first sign of a chrysalis. The bridge crews had a rotation, but did his army? Was every scenario viewed as a "all hands on deck" situation? He always carried an excess of bridge crews to ensure easy passage for his army. If you're fighting constantly against a seemingly endless enemy, to only enrich your Brightlord why not drink or firemoss it up whenever you get the chance? They lived through this battle after all. So to sum all that up: conformity to the group, battle fatigue and simplicity of life.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 hours ago, Hentient said:

He and the other highprinces think of the war as a game.

No. That is simply false. He does not see it as a game and that is his point. He is competitive, but not in a game. In fact he is taking the war seriously and above everything else.

What do you polish, your personal toy car or a commercial truck? You will maintain it, if you are running an efficient business, but no money for beauty. Armies use this polishing of stuff to maintain esprit de corps, not for current practical reasons. Dalinar will have the better army in the long run. Sadeas will win the war quicker and maybe at all.

16 hours ago, Hentient said:

Sadeas simply doesnt care enough to train his troops well,

They are well trained. And maintain their fighting edge in the field. They just don't have the orderly appearance.

16 hours ago, Hentient said:

he prefers quality not quantity. HIs soldiers are also a reflection of his personality. they are sloppy, uncaring, and rude, just like him. It's one of the ways they Brandon showed that Sadeas doesn't care about honor, he cares about money. It's cheaper to have a sloppy camp, because he doesn't have to keep it clean. 

No. The man is highly efficient. Who did more damage to the Parshendi, Dalinar or Sadeas? The hard truth is Sadeas and everybody knew it. Sadeas was better at fulfilling the vow of vengeance.

[+robardin he/him]

17 hours ago, Karger said:

Oathbringer sheds some light.

Basically it is a form of negative solidarity.  By being us we can be better then them.  However if you look or act like them then you are not us.  Sadeas just needed them to be aggressive and reasonably capable.  He did not care what they were besides that and spent no effort creating esprit de corps or a sense of pride in themselves or each other.

Exactly, that quote says it all. "Sadeas trained good soldiers. It’s just that where Father used discipline, Sadeas used competition."

Sadeas himself, personally, is far from sloppy - quite the contrary, he is up to the latest fashions in dress, with rich fabrics, and tweaks Adolin (who would love to do the same) that he is always going around in uniform these days, after Dalinar "got religion" about the "Alethi Codes of Warfare". Because the subtext there is, I am not Dalinar Kholin, I reject his position as idealistic posturing.

Same thing with the spit-and-shine, pressed-and-clean look that Dalinar's army is well known for. By having highly effective forces that look sloppy but do a lot more in the field in comparison, Sadeas sends the message, "I get the most gemhearts and the greater military glory despite being the opposite of Dalinar: my troops do what's expedient and what works, not what sounds and looks good."

And I don't think it's true that he didn't build a common sense of pride in his troops, or they wouldn't have cared so much about his assassination that they were on the brink of rebellion that made them so easily taken by Nergaoul at Thaylen Fields. They were trained not in a "believe in a higher cause" spirit but a kind of short-term results-based meritocracy, as seen when Sadeas reluctantly promoted Hashal for the success of Kaladin's bone armor maneuver. His officers and troops genuinely felt that to be the best meant getting the best results, by any means necessary, and were proud of collectively doing just that. Suddenly having their leader murdered and themselves exiled to shameful drudge duty, both due to Dalinar as they saw it, mattered more to them than some greater cause to retake Alethkar or to fight against Odium.

[Karger he/him]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No. That is simply false. He does not see it as a game and that is his point. He is competitive, but not in a game. In fact he is taking the war seriously and above everything else.

I think he sees it more as a sport.  A highly competitive and important environment and one where you.really want to win but don't care overtly about methodology or costs.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

What do you polish, your personal toy car or a commercial truck? You will maintain it, if you are running an efficient business, but no money for beauty. Armies use this polishing of stuff to maintain esprit de corps, not for current practical reasons. Dalinar will have the better army in the long run. Sadeas will win the war quicker and maybe at all.

Things like always having a clean uniform are a good tool for maintaining discipline and making sure that less essential tasks are taken seriously.  Sadeas is getting immediate results but the quality of his men is seriously deteriorating.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They are well trained. And maintain their fighting edge in the field. They just don't have the orderly appearance.

Their soldiers are decent blunt objects but under prolonged bad conditions they would suck.  During a siege like environment they would eventually loose cohesion, present discipline problems and start making simple mistakes.  Their officer command must also be terrible especially at the lower levels.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No. The man is highly efficient. Who did more damage to the Parshendi, Dalinar or Sadeas? The hard truth is Sadeas and everybody knew it. Sadeas was better at fulfilling the vow of vengeance.

As of when and how are you counting?  Dalinar's troops are after all the ones who actually destroyed the parshendi.  Also without Dalinar's presence keeping security and administration working at the warcamps Sadeas would not have been successful.

32 minutes ago, robardin said:

And I don't think it's true that he didn't build a common sense of pride in his troops, or they wouldn't have cared so much about his assassination that they were on the brink of rebellion that made them so easily taken by Nergaoul at Thaylen Fields

Negative not positive solidarity.  They are angry because they identify with Sadeas and see an attack on him as an attack on them.  Collectively being angry at something is way easier then being willing to work together to accomplish a goal.

[+robardin he/him]

21 hours ago, Karger said:

They are angry because they identify with Sadeas and see an attack on him as an attack on them.  Collectively being angry at something is way easier then being willing to work together to accomplish a goal.

Yes, my point is that if they didn't identify with Sadeas (and therefore "buying in" to the way he operated things), they'd have been relieved rather than angry with his being removed. He had inculcated a unity of attitude, not of purpose. That attitude did not feature "honor" in the way that Dalinar tried to instill ("I would not ask my men to do something I would not do myself"), but instead featured personal loyalty ("it's us vs. them").

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Yes, my point is that if they didn't identify with Sadeas (and therefore "buying in" to the way he operated things), they'd have been relieved rather than angry with his being removed. He had inculcated a unity of attitude, not of purpose. That attitude did not feature "honor" in the way that Dalinar tried to instill ("I would not ask my men to do something I would not do myself"), but instead featured personal loyalty ("it's us vs. them").

Exactly.  This works decently against an enemy who is outnumbered and outmatched.  The minimum of effort required to keep your troops aggressive will save you all the time Dalinar puts into training his troops to be model soldiers.  However in an extended campaign against any close to equal opponent or under siege from a superior force it might actually be smarter to just ditch the Sadeas troops as opposed to go through the work to reeducate them. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Karger