Warmth and light from (somewhere)

[Hyarmenatan]

Guys,

I was doing my 4th reread of Oathbringer (coronavirus, right?). This time it really occured to me how unusual those weird mentions by Dalinar are, regarding the other source of consolation and comfort etc. I listed them, but don't quote me, as I'm translating from my memory:

1) feeling of warmth and light during vision with Nohadon

2) feeling of warmth and light during one of other visions, when it was apparent, that Honor is dead (this is the one Dalinar mentioned in the conversation with Kadash)

3) feeling of forgiveness from a woman (Evi?) when he embraced the Thrill

4) feeling of Navani shading 'the light' when she closed the balcony window while Dalinar was writing the 'Oathbringer'

What is the current 17th shard most common theory on that? In my view, 1st and 2nd cannot be explained in any other way than other Shard's intervention. Which Shard would that be, doesn't matter. 3rd point - Evi's forgiveness - might be explained by assuming Dalinar extremely a very strong Connection to her and she was somehow Invested. Maybe due to her origins from Rira / Iri, or other, but it can be explained in a way.

As for the 4th - no explanation except other Shard's influence on Dalinar.

 

ALSO : why did Odium scream 'we killed you'?

Any links to existing topics are welcomed

Help me, folks.

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, Hyarmenatan said:

1) feeling of warmth and light during vision with Nohadon

2) feeling of warmth and light during one of other visions, when it was apparent, that Honor is dead (this is the one Dalinar mentioned in the conversation with Kadash)

4) feeling of Navani shading 'the light' when she closed the balcony window while Dalinar was writing the 'Oathbringer'

As far as I know, these are either from the God beyond, Dalinar's imagination, or some other plot point that hasn't come up yet.

19 minutes ago, Hyarmenatan said:

3) feeling of forgiveness from a woman (Evi?) when he embraced the Thrill

When you die, your spiritual aspect will linger for a while, an "imprint" of what you were. When the three realms were pulled together, Dalinar was able to hear Evi's Spiritual aspect. The Spiritual aspects are also most likely what Szeth hears screams from.

[Hyarmenatan]

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

As far as I know, these are either from the God beyond, Dalinar's imagination, or some other plot point that hasn't come up yet.

OK, but what is the God Beyond really? It is still a legend, right? Not a singe Arcanist knows what the God Beyond is? Is it even a real thing in the lore?

 

7 minutes ago, Nameless said:

When you die, your spiritual aspect will linger for a while, an "imprint" of what you were.

That's OK, but since Evi's death, many years have passed - about 10 I guess. The strongest, most invested people, like Kelsier, would spend minutes or hours using their Investment status to prolong the time before going to Beyond.

 

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

When the three realms were pulled together, Dalinar was able to hear Evi's Spiritual aspect. The Spiritual aspects are also most likely what Szeth hears screams from.

I don't think this counters my points above. The fact that Dalinar can access Spiritual, does not mean he can talk to the dead. The holder of [some two other Shards] was way more powerfull than a Dalinar, yet he was unable to break the rules of the world beyond. No reviving, only speaking to the dead shortly after their deaths, but that's it. I believe this is simply not within reach of any Shard, unless untill they gather all 16 and merge them.

You didn't buy me with this, thank you for your response though.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Hyarmenatan said:

OK, but what is the God Beyond really? It is still a legend, right? Not a singe Arcanist knows what the God Beyond is? Is it even a real thing in the lore?

The God beyond is a theoretical actual capital-G God. it's existence will never be confirmed or denied:

Quote

Questioner

After people die, in this universe, where exactly do they go? Because, at first they appear in this one world, and then they go somewhere else.

Brandon Sanderson

So where do people go when they die. *laughter* In the cosmere. One of the things that's very important to me as a writer, when I am writing stories, is when we get to these kind of fundamental questions about faith and religion and things like this, that the narrative is allowing multiple characters' viewpoints to be plausibly true, if this makes sense. For instance, I am not gonna come out and say, "Is there a capital-G God of the cosmere, is there an afterlife?" These are not questions I'm gonna answer, because in-world, they can't answer them. What they can say is, your Investiture will leave what we call a Cognitive Shadow, which is an imprint of your personality that can do certain things. And that most of those fade away, and you can see them, glimpse them, and then watch them go. But, are they going somewhere? Or are they not? Is that simply the Investiture being reclaimed, Is it more of a Buddhist thought, where your soul is getting recycled and used again? Is it nothing, you return to, you know, being-- yeah, is it a different type of matter? Or is there a Beyond, is there a capital-G God? Things like this. These questions are not answered. I'm never gonna answer those.

Now, the characters will try to answer them. But it's important to me that both Dalinar and Jasnah can exist in the same universe, and that the story is not saying "This one is right, and this one is wrong." The story is saying "This is how this one sees the world; this is how this one sees the world." It's very important to me from the beginning to do that, just because-- Like, I hate reading a book where someone espouses my viewpoint only to get proven wrong by the entire structure of the narrative, and in that universe, that person is wrong. But I'm like, "In our universe, I don't think that I am. Just the way you constructed everything makes it so that I have to be wrong, if I were living in your universe, even if it's a universe that's not a sci-fi/fantasy one." If that makes sense.

This is just kind of for respecting my characters and for the people who hold the viewpoints of my characters, in particular if they happen to be different from my own viewpoints. I feel there are certain lines I'm not gonna cross.

So, the answer is: who do you believe? Which of the philosophies in the books do you look at and say "Yeah!" Or, even better: listen to lots of different ones, and maybe these different viewpoints are all gonna have interesting points that'll give you things to think upon.

 

7 minutes ago, Hyarmenatan said:

That's OK, but since Evi's death, many years have passed - about 10 I guess. The strongest, most invested people, like Kelsier, would spend minutes or hours using their Investment status to prolong the time before going to Beyond.

That is their Cognitive aspect. Their mind. Their Spiritual aspect is the ideals that make them who they are. (Or something like that)

10 minutes ago, Hyarmenatan said:

I don't think this counters my points above. The fact that Dalinar can access Spiritual, does not mean he can talk to the dead. The holder of [some two other Shards] was way more powerfull than a Dalinar, yet he was unable to break the rules of the world beyond. No reviving, only speaking to the dead shortly after their deaths, but that's it. I believe this is simply not within reach of any Shard, unless untill they gather all 16 and merge them.

The Beyond is separate from the Spiritual, and may not even exist. Dalinar can't talk to the dead, but to their spiritual aspects, an "imprint" of them.

[FantasyFanatic he/him]

59 minutes ago, Hyarmenatan said:

1) feeling of warmth and light during vision with Nohadon

2) feeling of warmth and light during one of other visions, when it was apparent, that Honor is dead (this is the one Dalinar mentioned in the conversation with Kadash)

I would that if it was any Shard it would be cultivation.

[Honorless he/him]

4 hours ago, Nameless said:

The God beyond is a theoretical actual capital-G God. it's existence will never be confirmed or denied

Not necessarily. People within the Cosmere believe it's a higher power that isn't a Shard and above it. Brandon says he'll never answer whether a capital G-God exists within the Cosmere or the afterlife the Beyond, not whether the God Beyond actually exists.

Besides if this were from the God Beyond, that would be a pretty definitive answer, wouldn't it?

The light and warmth is probably from a Shard, we don't know which one. Cultivation (on Roshar)? Autonomy (light)? Harmony (warmth)?

[NameIess]

22 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

Not necessarily. People within the Cosmere believe it's a higher power that isn't a Shard and above it. Brandon says he'll never answer whether a capital G-God exists within the Cosmere or the afterlife the Beyond, not whether the God Beyond actually exists.

Besides if this were from the God Beyond, that would be a pretty definitive answer, wouldn't it?

The light and warmth is probably from a Shard, we don't know which one. Cultivation (on Roshar)? Autonomy (light)? Harmony (warmth)?

The God Beyond is generally considered to be a capital-G God.

[Experience he/him]

Yes, but it is just a concept believed by some people in cosmere. It is not confirmed wether it even exists.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Experience said:

Yes, but it is just a concept believed by some people in cosmere. It is not confirmed wether it even exists.

Exactly. The light is a plot point that will be important later, or either from the God Beyond or a delusion, depending on what you choose to believe about the God Beyond's existence.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Nameless

[Honorless he/him]

Yup, the God Beyond could even turn out to be an entity or a Shard's subtle machinations

[Experience he/him]

They might just be... Experienced at making people think there is a capital G-God.

[Honorless he/him]

Maybe it's Autonomy, pulling the wool over everyone's eyes

[Ripheus23]

On 4/10/2020 at 7:09 PM, Dreamer said:

Not necessarily. People within the Cosmere believe it's a higher power that isn't a Shard and above it. Brandon says he'll never answer whether a capital G-God exists within the Cosmere or the afterlife the Beyond, not whether the God Beyond actually exists.

Saying that you will never confirm the existence of a God in the Beyond would be the same as saying you will never confirm whether the God Beyond exists, wouldn't it?

[Honorless he/him]

2 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Saying that you will never confirm the existence of a God in the Beyond would be the same as saying you will never confirm whether the God Beyond exists, wouldn't it?

The link between the Beyond and the God Beyond is completely hypothesized by Sharders. Brandon never says that the God Beyond is a God in the Beyond.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Dreamer

[Ripheus23]

It's a placeholder term, I think. First, the Beyond itself is not confirmed to exist. There might be a Beyond. Second, there might be a God in this Beyond, and that by definition would be the God Beyond. Now, some being who is not Beyond, but is a God, might go and claim to be the God Beyond, but we would never know if this being's claim was true.

[Honorless he/him]

But isn't that just based on the word 'Beyond'? Brandon has refused to answer whether there is a connection between the two, and yeah he's also said he's never going to answer whether there actually is a Beyond. 

[garlick]

My own opinion of whats going on with that glow/voice is its tanavast since his cognitive shadow merged with the stormfather, like theres still a part of tanavast that's not fully merged. When Odium said we killed you. Since all 3 realms were together I think Odium saw tanavast in that moment helping dalinar. Again this is my opinion I'm not sure how popular it is

[Subvisual Haze]

Dalinar is bonded to the Stormfather, and the Stormfather is the current holder/caretaker/shadow of what remains of the Honor shard.  I assume these moments of warmth/light are Dalinar's dreaming mind/soul drawing close to the power of the Honor shard and experiencing the spiritual realm and its energy and connections in various ways.  The spiritual realm is weird and vague and doesn't seem to strictly obey the limitations of space or time.  Nohadon at the end of the OB dream babbles in a seemingly unrelated aside about the nature of Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual realms and the Spiritual representing a "perfect you", I think this line was intended to make us think that Spiritual shenanigans were occuring.

1) I personally think Dalinar is communicating with the shadow of Nohadon himself in this dream that he initially mistakes for one of the pre-recorded visions he usually experiences.  Specifically I think Nohadon's cognitive shadow never fully passed on after his physical death and still lingers on tied to Honor's power.  Dalinar has spend so much time reading the in universe Way of Kings and trying to live by its actions that he has formed a special connection with Nohadon's shadow.  Dalinar's soul is metaphorically extremely "cracked" at this point in the story, and those cracks also allow Nohadon to more directly communicate with him than would normally be possible.  If you've read Mistborn: Secret History a similar thing occurred there (SPOILERS)

Spoiler

where Kelsier's shadow is able to communicate with Spook directly in a dream vision.  Again it's suggested that the reason Kel can do this is both because Spook's soul has become extremely "cracked" at this point, and also because Spook personally believed in Kelsier, creating a special connection between the two.  I think we're witnessing the same thing in Oathbringer except now it's Nohadon's lingering shadow having a dream chat with Dalinar. In other times when Dalinar's soul wasn't so frayed Nohadon would have been limited to occasional italicized whispers ("UNITE THEM") - again like Kelsier used at other points to whisper to Spook, or like Ruin used to whisper crazy thoughts at spiked people.

The "we killed you" also ties into my Nohadon theory.  It's useful to rewind the story a bit and notice certain elements in the events that occur before the "we killed you" line (which is somewhat difficult with the rapidly shifting POVs). 

• Dalinar is clutching a copy of The Way of Kings to his chest like a security blanket. 
• Odium blasts the book out of Dalinar's hand and into cinders with a bolt of lightning and dismissively says "The words of a man long dead, long failed." 
• At his lowest point Dalinar finds a single gloryspren inside his clenched fist, and then someone mentally whispers to him the "always the next step" answer to the riddle that dream Nohadon had previously asked. 
• Dalinar says his oath, power explodes, Odium yells his cryptic "we killed you"

I absolutely could be linking up unrelated events here, but at least to me, these events all seem to link together rather well to suggest who Odium thought had been previously killed.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Subvisual Haze

[Karger he/him]

On 4/10/2020 at 5:07 PM, Hyarmenatan said:

Help me, folks.

In order.  I think the warmth and life is actually coming from Dalinar's own expanded soul(this happens when you are exposed to a lot of investiture).  Nohadon himself is Dalinar looking into the spiritual realm and putting out a vision of an ideal king through his own cognitive understanding.   The other visions follow suit and ditto for writing Oathbringer.  Dalinar is touching capital T truth and his mind can't fully make sense of it so he interprets it as light.

Similarly Evi is the spiritual aspect of Evi that has stuck around.  The ideal of Evi.  Not her mind but her soul.  The soul actually does stick around for a while in the cosmere even if the mind and awareness do not.  Because of Dalinar's expanded connection he can still feel what the idea of her would say to him through his own cognitive understanding.

As to the we killed you comment I personally think Dalinar is evoking the consent of Adanalsium.  The idea of all things in one and that this concept is extremely frighting maybe even painful to Odium who rejects even the idea of being part of a greater whole.  I know of some places where this was talked about.  I may be able to post some links latter.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

While the most probable culprit seems to be Cultivation or (possibly) some Shard from Ashyn, I'd like to propose a slightly less glamorous alternative: what if Dalinar is being manipulated by Emotional Allomancy?

• We have seen people interacting with Shards, Ascending etc. in most Cosmere works. We have seen Dalinar talk to all the Shards (or at least their remnants) on Roshar. Warmth and light though? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can only recall it happening on Scadrial (Mistborn Era 2 spoiler):
  Spoiler

  when Harmony talks to Wax via his earring

   

• When Dalinar regains all his memories (Oathbringer chapter 118), he describes the pain of all the deaths he caused as tiny spikes in his soul, which is another potential hint at Scadrial. Cultivation's boon wearing off (a rather unique situation, as both boons and curses tend to be permanent) might be what causes small cracks in Dalinar's soul, making him susceptible to Allomantic manipulation (not control though)
• We have some good candidates for people who have both the means and their own reasons to manipulate Dalinar: Hoid (a powerful Allomancer) and the Ghostbloods (potentially Hemalurgists)

[Hyarmenatan]

On 17.04.2020 at 2:29 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Cultivation's boon wearing off (a rather unique situation, as both boons and curses tend to be permanent)

The Cultivation is not usually granting the boons, it's the Nightwatcher. Cultivation let the NW interfere with humans in order for NW to grow and learn. Dalinar speaking to and getting boon from Cultivation is an extraordinary exception, not business as usual. IIRC, it didn't happen for centuries prior to Dalinar's visit to the NW valley as per Cultivation's own words.

Not to contradict your other points, though. Especially the use of word 'spike' makes it suspicious.

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

15 hours ago, Hyarmenatan said:

The Cultivation is not usually granting the boons, it's the Nightwatcher. Cultivation let the NW interfere with humans in order for NW to grow and learn. Dalinar speaking to and getting boon from Cultivation is an extraordinary exception, not business as usual. IIRC, it didn't happen for centuries prior to Dalinar's visit to the NW valley as per Cultivation's own words.

Yeah, Dalinar is definitely a special case here. Doubly so, actually, as some other people (Taravangian and potentially Lift) were also changed by Cultivation and their boons and curses seem permanent. The conversation between Dalinar, the Nightwatcher and Cultivation in Oathbringer also indicates that while Cultivation has more experience with it, her magic follows exactly the same principles as the Nightwatcher's

[Eternal Khol he/him]

2 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

The conversation between Dalinar, the Nightwatcher and Cultivation in Oathbringer also indicates that while Cultivation has more experience with it, her magic follows exactly the same principles as the Nightwatcher's

One interaction isn't enough to go on.

Lift's abilities to covert mass into investiture and being partially in the Cognitive are a hint of what Cultivation's magic actually is.

I seriously doubt all of her magic is Boon and Bane

[KandraAllomancer he/him]

11 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

One interaction isn't enough to go on.

Lift's abilities to covert mass into investiture and being partially in the Cognitive are a hint of what Cultivation's magic actually is.

I seriously doubt all of her magic is Boon and Bane

I absolutely agree. I meant it in a more restricted sense - the boon and curse mechanics seem exactly the same for both the Nightwatcher and Cultivation. Given that the disease magic on Ashyn works in a similar way, I would assume that's simply the feature the Rosharan system as a whole