Booknerd's guide to the cosmere vol. 2 magic and it's interactions

[Frustration]

44 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

Investiture does appear in the Spiritual quadrant of Feruchemy alongside Connection, Fortune and Identity. We don't know what Intent is, but I believe it's tied to Identity (sDNA) and Cognitive perception as a switch to access Investiture. 

I agree that it is a cognitive thing

44 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

I would say Investiture is the matter/energy in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realm and all magics are either:

1) exchanges of matter / energy with Investiture cost (heat, light, explosions,...)

2) an effect of the two metaphysical Realms (Fortune for futuresight, travel via the Cognitive or Spiritual)

Or an interplay of both (1) and (2) (most of the magics)

 

Investiture does appear in the Spiritual quadrant of Feruchemy alongside Connection, Fortune and Identity. We don't know what Intent is, but I believe it's tied to Identity (sDNA) and Cognitive perception as a switch to access Investiture. 

 

I would say Surges are fundamental forces of the Rosharan system (hence the 10 Surges) and the fundamental forces manifest differently in the other Shardworlds. 

How is it that you can say virtually the same thing as me but better? Also @Karger I am working on that chart but it will take some time.

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Booknerd said:

Also @Karger I am working on that chart but it will take some time.

Cool!  @ me when you have it finished. 

[Gilphon]

I don't even think the Surges are fundamental forces of Roshar- the Ars Arcanum says that the surges were thought of as the powersets of the Radiants before people started thinking of them as fundamental forces, and lots of Fabrials have effects that can't be mapped onto any particular surge without a lot of handwaving. 

Like there's a in-world idea that they the fundamental forces, and that's the real world inspiration for them, but the in-world scholars are incorrect; the surges are no more fundamental than the Allomantic or Aonic powers are. 

[Staenbridge]

On 07/04/2020 at 5:22 AM, Gilphon said:

Like there's a in-world idea that they the fundamental forces, and that's the real world inspiration for them, but the in-world scholars are incorrect; the surges are no more fundamental than the Allomantic or Aonic powers are. 

I have to agree with you here. @Frustration's claim that (e.g.) Allomancy not just "can be" but is derived from a Surge combined with a set of "spiritual attributes" is in my opinion somewhat farcical, given what we know (and more to the point, what we don't know) at the present. Much like electromagnetism and the weak force, it seems perfectly logical to conclude that all of the different magic systems are small-F fundamental, but at their core are just facets of one big-F Fundamental system of mass/energy/investiture usage. 

[Frustration]

15 minutes ago, Staenbridge said:

I have to agree with you here. @Frustration's claim that (e.g.) Allomancy not just "can be" but is derived from a Surge combined with a set of "spiritual attributes" is in my opinion somewhat farcical, given what we know (and more to the point, what we don't know) at the present. Much like electromagnetism and the weak force, it seems perfectly logical to conclude that all of the different magic systems are small-F fundamental, but at their core are just facets of one big-F Fundamental system of mass/energy/investiture usage. 

And you will ignore that Allomantic Bendalloy is gravitational?

      I do believe that the surges fit into this, if you have anything to refute it other than, "I don't think in world thinking should be taken as how their world works" I'll be happy to hear it 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Calling this a guide to the Cosmere is more than misleading. At best it is a theory, though in reality it is just a statement of opinion.

[NameIess]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

      I do believe that the surges fit into this, if you have anything to refute it other than, "I don't think in world thinking should be taken as how their world works" I'll be happy to hear it 

Your allomancy chart feels off. You could just as well take any fundamental forces and make it from there. I feel like the fundamental forces would be closer to what we have in physics, plus Fortune, Identity, Investiture, connection, and intent.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

Your allomancy chart feels off. You could just as well take any fundamental forces and make it from there. I feel like the fundamental forces would be closer to what we have in physics, plus Fortune, Identity, Investiture, connection, and intent.

The surges ARE fundamental forces by their perspective, just as Electromagnetism is a fundamental force from our perspective. Brandon has said that they are basically the same(I'll link WoB later)

[Gilphon]

I mean, Khriss disagrees with Rosharan scholars about the idea of surges being fundamental forces in the Ars Arcanum. I tend to think that's she the most reliable in-world source on cosmere-wide magical mechanics that we have.

But- broadly speaking, they just aren't fundamental forces. Like the laws of physics from our world still largely apply in the cosmere- it should be possible to, for example, unify Adhesion and Abrasion into electromagnetism in the same way it is in the real world. 

[Gderu]

I agree with Gilphon. The way you describe steelpushing and ironpulling is simply incorrect, and cannot be correct, because they simply don't function in the same way as gravity. This is most easily seen in TFE when Vin Pushes herself up on three anchors and floats in the sky. If the force there was gravitational, you would expect to see her bob up and down in continuous motion until the air resistance slowed her to a stop. That is not what happened. It is specifically said that when she reached the tip of her steel line, she simply floated, without moving. Because of that, the force that affected her couldn't have been a weird lashing of a sort.

I also don't really understand why you specifically said that everything is made out of the Rosharan surges. Why not Aons? This choice doesn't seem to have much evidence to support it, and we haven't seen anyone talk about the surges outside of Roshar. I think that that is proof enough, even if my previous point can be dismissed as a small flaw.

Finally, I agree with SwordNimi. This isn't a guide, it's a theory. You should label it as such, and not be misleading with your titles.

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Gilphon said:

Abrasion into electromagnetism in the same way it is in the real world. 

And leave Illumination out?

5 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Calling this a guide to the Cosmere is more than misleading. At best it is a theory, though in reality it is just a statement of opinion.

Last I checked this was Booknered's guide to the Cosmere opinion and speculation are implied. And besides how does that differ from the real world? We have never seen darkmatter yet we treat it like it's fact, we have only seen the effects it has and extrapolated.

1 hour ago, Gderu said:

I agree with Gilphon. The way you describe steelpushing and ironpulling is simply incorrect, and cannot be correct, because they simply don't function in the same way as gravity. This is most easily seen in TFE when Vin Pushes herself up on three anchors and floats in the sky. If the force there was gravitational, you would expect to see her bob up and down in continuous motion until the air resistance slowed her to a stop. That is not what happened. It is specifically said that when she reached the tip of her steel line, she simply floated, without moving. Because of that, the force that affected her couldn't have been a weird lashing of a sort.

Than why on Earth(or Scandrial in this case) is it related to weight if gravity has nothing to do with it? Era Two has made it especially clear that it is weight related. So what is your point?

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Than why on Earth(or Scandrial in this case) is it related to weight if gravity has nothing to do with it? Era Two has made it especially clear that it is weight related. So what is your point?

It's related to mass.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

It's related to mass.

Well it's mass but also not mass(one of the reasons I don't have Feruchemy listed above) as Wax's punches don't gain incredible power when tapping Iron.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Well it's mass but also not mass(one of the reasons I don't have Feruchemy listed above) as Wax's punches don't gain incredible power when tapping Iron.

I feel that this theory is kind of like how scientists tried to fit our solar system into a earth-centric design. It seemed to fit at first, but when they discovered more facts, they found that it didn't actually fit with them at all. The only reason they kept it for so long is that they had predispositions for earth being the center of everything.

[Frustration]

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I feel that this theory is kind of like how scientists tried to fit our solar system into a earth-centric design. It seemed to fit at first, but when they discovered more facts, they found that it didn't actually fit with them at all. The only reason they kept it for so long is that they had predispositions for earth being the center of everything.

If we find out more in solid fact, not just "I don't think that works" I'll change or remove this depending on how bad it is, until then it works.

 

[Gilphon]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

And leave Illumination out?

Well, no, illumination is also part of electromagnetism. I was just giving an example.

Like really the addition of Investiture probably means that the Cosmere does have more than four fundamental forces, but it's still gonna have the four from the real world, and most of the non-graviton surges are part of electromagnetism, and the surges don't cover strong and weak molecular force. (Cohesion and Tension are described in ways that invoke them, but don't actually behave anything like them)

So not all of the surges are fundamental, and there are fundamental forces that aren't covered by the surges, therefore the surges are not fundamental forces. 

[Frustration]

45 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Well, no, illumination is also part of electromagnetism. I was just giving an example.

Like really the addition of Investiture probably means that the Cosmere does have more than four fundamental forces, but it's still gonna have the four from the real world, and most of the non-graviton surges are part of electromagnetism, and the surges don't cover strong and weak molecular force. (Cohesion and Tension are described in ways that invoke them, but don't actually behave anything like them)

So not all of the surges are fundamental, and there are fundamental forces that aren't covered by the surges, therefore the surges are not fundamental forces. 

WoB

Spoiler

Questioner

The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you've said are basically a different set of laws of physics.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Questioner

Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. You could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would, for instance, consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force.

Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

 

[Gilphon]

Yeah. He based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but isn't sure whether or not Transportation fits our definition of a fundamental force. That's not exactly full on support of the point you're making. And here's another WoB: 

 

Spoiler

 

Argent

My understanding of the... spren is that they grant powers based on what they understand to be fundamental? Ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. I wouldn't 100% go with that. I would say these arethe fundamental forces-- They aren't as scientific as our fundamental forces, but I would say it's more than just what the spren view and what the humans view in that case. But they are more philosophical than scientific, in cases.

Argent

Other cognitive beings, could they-- A spren on Earth. Would it grant electromagnetism surge, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

That, I would say yes.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

 

Which tells us that the list of surges is at least partially based on how Rosharan scholars perceive things as working, rather than how they objectively work. And that other planets don't necessarily have the same list of surges, so that list shouldn't be considered a Cosmere-wide phenomenon. 

Like he's kind of being vague and hedging his bets in both the WoBs we've quoted. But he's definitely not saying that every magical effect everywhere can be understood through the framework of the surges. 

And in my opinion, it's a really bad and unhelpful framework with which to look at any magic system that isn't surgebinding or voidbinding. 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Yeah. He based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but isn't sure whether or not Transportation fits our definition of a fundamental force. That's not exactly full on support of the point you're making. And here's another WoB: 

 

  Hide contents

 

Argent

My understanding of the... spren is that they grant powers based on what they understand to be fundamental? Ish?

Brandon Sanderson

Ish. I wouldn't 100% go with that. I would say these arethe fundamental forces-- They aren't as scientific as our fundamental forces, but I would say it's more than just what the spren view and what the humans view in that case. But they are more philosophical than scientific, in cases.

Argent

Other cognitive beings, could they-- A spren on Earth. Would it grant electromagnetism surge, for example?

Brandon Sanderson

That, I would say yes.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

 

Which tells us that the list of surges is at least partially based on how Rosharan scholars perceive things as working, rather than how they objectively work. And that other planets don't necessarily have the same list of surges, so that list shouldn't be considered a Cosmere-wide phenomenon. 

Like he's kind of being vague and hedging his bets in both the WoBs we've quoted. But he's definitely not saying that every magical effect everywhere can be understood through the framework of the surges. 

And in my opinion, it's a really bad and unhelpful framework with which to look at any magic system that isn't surgebinding or voidbinding. 

Even our definition is incomplete with Highs and X17 and all, but that's the best we have, just as this is the best I have. I'm working with an undeveloped branch of thought so no it isn't perfect but it's the best I've seen for unifing all Cosmere magic.

[Gilphon]

I would argue that you're trying to introduce too much specificity. Like the point, from a writerly point of view, is that the Cosmere-wide principles are very broad and flexible so that Brandon can define the planet-specific rules to be basically anything he wants without breaking the Cosmere as a whole. 

So, like, if we're not talking about something that's well-established to be a Cosmere-wide thing, like the Three Realms or the Spiritual Attributes or Perspection and Intent, I would advise proceeding with caution and assuming it only applies to the one magic system unless you have strong evidence to the contrary. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Gilphon

[Gderu]

The point of having fundamental forces is that they help us understand the universe in some way. Sure, our understanding of everything isn't perfect - but it holds for most cases in which it is needed, and that is why we use it. If the surges were also a useful concept, and were widely applicable, there would be no problem with using them. 

The problem is that they aren't. If the surges were fundamental forces, you would think that they would describe everything in a good consistent way, but they don't do that. They are a mess of things that don't belong together being lumped together anyways, and of effects of fundamental forces being thought of as the force itself. I think that it's pretty obvious that abrasion (making things stick together) isn't a fundamental force. It's a result of perhaps ridding the space between the two objects affected of air and thus creating a vacuum, which sticks the two things together. That could perhaps be part of the electromagnetic force after a fashion (the EM is what causes the molecules to stay apart, which is what causes the objects to move into the void), but it's obvious that this is a very roundabout way of looking at things. They also group light and sound together in Illumination, which makes very little sense. Light is electromagnetic radiation, while sound is a wave. Those two things are simply not related.

Both of these example surges are places in which I could see their society failing to understand what is actually happening, and because of that assuming it is some kind of fundamental force. That is why I don't think this theory makes sense - the surges are a concept made up to explain nature, but without all the scientific rigor we use today. They remind me of some ancient civilizations believing that Fire, Earth, Water, and Air create everything, in that they are both ways to explain the world around us, although the surges are more complex. 

That is why I am opposed to your theory. You use a relativley primitive society's understanding of the world as the basis for everything, and that doesn't make sense to me.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Gderu said:

The point of having fundamental forces is that they help us understand the universe in some way. Sure, our understanding of everything isn't perfect - but it holds for most cases in which it is needed, and that is why we use it. If the surges were also a useful concept, and were widely applicable, there would be no problem with using them. 

The problem is that they aren't. If the surges were fundamental forces, you would think that they would describe everything in a good consistent way, but they don't do that. They are a mess of things that don't belong together being lumped together anyways, and of effects of fundamental forces being thought of as the force itself. I think that it's pretty obvious that abrasion (making things stick together) isn't a fundamental force. It's a result of perhaps ridding the space between the two objects affected of air and thus creating a vacuum, which sticks the two things together. That could perhaps be part of the electromagnetic force after a fashion (the EM is what causes the molecules to stay apart, which is what causes the objects to move into the void), but it's obvious that this is a very roundabout way of looking at things. They also group light and sound together in Illumination, which makes very little sense. Light is electromagnetic radiation, while sound is a wave. Those two things are simply not related.

Your using real world physics here, but you forget about how much perception affects things. Additionally the Cosmere functions with rules different to our own last I checked we didn't have a cognitive realm. Theoretically this could function with just spiritual attributes but that seems unlikely that Brandon would only have four when Cosemere is big on 16.

5 hours ago, Gderu said:

Both of these example surges are places in which I could see their society failing to understand what is actually happening, and because of that assuming it is some kind of fundamental force. That is why I don't think this theory makes sense - the surges are a concept made up to explain nature, but without all the scientific rigor we use today. They remind me of some ancient civilizations believing that Fire, Earth, Water, and Air create everything, in that they are both ways to explain the world around us, although the surges are more complex. 

That is why I am opposed to your theory. You use a relativley primitive society's understanding of the world as the basis for everything, and that doesn't make sense to me.

Of course it's simplistic and will probably have to be torn apart as we learn more, it's the first of it's kind(that I'm aware of). If we suddenly found another Universe bordered our own we would have no way to tell how exactly anything worked there, we could theorize but until we made a major breakthrough into instruments of technology that right now we would think of as mystical, we would be left with that speculation. I can't synthesis years of research or make actual tests but this is what I have. 

 

7 hours ago, Gilphon said:

I would argue that you're trying to introduce too much specificity. Like the point, from a writerly point of view, is that the Cosmere-wide principles are very broad and flexible so that Brandon can define the planet-specific rules to be basically anything he wants without breaking the Cosmere as a whole. 

So, like, if we're not talking about something that's well-established to be a Cosmere-wide thing, like the Three Realms or the Spiritual Attributes or Perspection and Intent, I would advise proceeding with caution and assuming it only applies to the one magic system unless you have strong evidence to the contrary. 

Mainly trying to unify all magic because let's be honest if Brandon has more likely than not figured that out. Also thinking along the lines of MIstborn, Stormlight, and Dragonsteel, forming the Cosmere backbone; and we found out about Spiritual attributes in Mistborn, and Surges in Stormlight(technically I think that's where we got the three realms from so maybe that's what we we're suppose to take away) and I believe Dragonsteel will introduce the final two pieces.

[Gderu]

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Your using real world physics here, but you forget about how much perception affects things. Additionally the Cosmere functions with rules different to our own last I checked we didn't have a cognitive realm. Theoretically this could function with just spiritual attributes but that seems unlikely that Brandon would only have four when Cosemere is big on 16.

Brandon has said that the Cosmere is like our world, except that it has investiture too. Like energy and mass are the same thing in our world, energy, mass, and investiture are the same thing in the Cosmere. The Cosmere has fundamental laws that are very similar to our own. If they weren't so similar, their worlds would be completley alien to us, without any resemblance to Earth.

[Frustration]

Just now, Gderu said:

Brandon has said that the Cosmere is like our world, except that it has investiture too. Like energy and mass are the same thing in our world, energy, mass, and investiture are the same thing in the Cosmere. The Cosmere has fundamental laws that are very similar to our own. If they weren't so similar, their worlds would be completley alien to us, without any resemblance to Earth.

Roshar is completely alien without any resemblance to earth, but I see your point, I'm just saying that we can't say for certain that all of our rules hold water.

[Chiberty]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Roshar is completely alien without any resemblance to earth, but I see your point, I'm just saying that we can't say for certain that all of our rules hold water.

The problem isn't the extent to which regular physics matter. The problem is, your theory cannot be proven or disproven. The way that you are matching surges to these different effects can really be done for anything; even the ones that you think don't fit. For example, using this theory, you could explain emotional allomancy as being based on soulcasting creating certain chemicals. There's way too much freedom in the applications of your theory. The value of a theory is in how it can predict things. A theory that cannot be disproven or proven cannot predict anything useful.

In fact, things that can't be proven or disproven are opinions. "Pizza tastes good." I could argue that with somebody that doesn't like pizza for as long as I want, but neither of us will convince each other because you just can't.

Edited April 18, 2020 by ChickenLiberty