Hoid Makes a Deal With Odium

[Stormlightning she/her]

Personally, I think Hoid dislikes both Rayse and his Shard's Intent enough that he has no interest in gaining power from them. Like, if there were some useful power he could access without risk I'm sure he'd go for it, but I don't see him engaging in a confrontation with Rayse to do so. While he may be gathering powers, I don't think his goal is to get a little bit of each one of them. It's bigger than that, and the powers are just tools in a toolbelt. Some powers, like lightweaving, he's particularly interested in, but others I think he's fine to let go of. Contrary to many popular theories, I don't think his ultimate goal requires him to get some sliver of power from each Shard.

And even if his goal is as you said, I don't think Rayse would give him a second to talk if stepped on Braize. He'd take Hoid out immediately.

[Karger he/him]

There is also the whole Odium would demolish an entire city for a.01% chance of offing Hoid.  I don't think accommodation is possible.

[+ILuvHats he/him]

Actually, there's a much easier for way for Hoid to get Odium's investiture. Instead of cutting a deal with Odium, he could cut a deal with Sja-anat to enlighten his spren. That should do the trick without having to interact with the guy who'd demolish an entire city just for a chance at killing him.

On 3/18/2020 at 1:42 PM, Ashspren said:

Actually, there are two more. Yes, if he wants Odium's power, he would have to cut a deal with Rayse. That being said, he also needs the power of Cultivation. I think it's more likely that the Book 4 epilogue will show Hoid getting a boon/bane from the Nightwatcher.

Most true spren are a combination of Honor and Cultivation, so Hoid probably has Cultivation's investiture already. 

Quote

Questioner

Hi. I have two questions about the Cosmere. The first one is if a Radiant can have a bond with two spren, and the other one is if Truthwatcher spren are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, so RAFO on if a Knight Radiant can have two spren. But the second question was, "Are spren of Cultivation?" One more time?

Questioner

If the spren of the Truthwatchers are related directly with Cultivation or the Nightwatcher? Or both?

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the sapient spren that form the Orders of Knights Radiant are related to a mixture of Honor and Cultivation. Some lean one direction much more than the other, and the spren of the Truthwatchers leans toward Cultivation.

Footnote: Brandon has previously said that it's theoretically possible to bond two spren. NOTE: This link needs to be updated once the correct entry has been added to Arcanum.
EuroCon 2016 (Nov. 5, 2016)

 

[XeGnome]

I was of the feeling Hoid was collecting magic systems... not investiture.   My thinking is that “investiture is investiture “ regardless of what shard is wielding or molding it.   All investiture is the same “stuff”.  The difference between cultivation and preservation is only how the shard developed the magic around it.

example is:  Breath should be different from Stormlight but with a hack, of sorts, the two can be the same. 

Hoid is after some sort of “combination “ of the changes in how the investiture is manipulated after the shattering to execute his plan ( whatever that plan is)

[ArcticWindrunner he/him]

I get the feeling that Hoid is there to aid in the destruction of Rayse, rather than striking a deal with him. I agree that he will either strike a deal with his successor or just ignore the magic entirely.

[trav]

Hoid does not need to make a deal with Odium directly and much rather capture or bond a voidspren.

it is an interesting idea. Hoid really does seem to gather magical abilities from all the systems.

iirc Brandon confirmed that Shards could be restored. maybe Hoid is working towards something like that.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, trav said:

iirc Brandon confirmed that Shards could be restored. maybe Hoid is working towards something like that.

Meaning that all forms of splintered investiture would need to end. That plan amounts to genocide.

[Wyndle88 he/him]

I don't know if this has been discussed before. This is my first post. I just read Oathbringer 2nd time. First was when it released. So I'm not up to date on several factors. I have only read stormlight, mistborn and warbreaker. I don't know about other shards other than from what I looked up online which is plenty.

 

 

So here goes:

 

We know that Honor wants Odium to appoint a champion. Thus making it a war between champions so to speak. So imagine if Odium appoints a champion. And this person in turn created Odium's perpendicularity on Roshar. In that moment when Odium is literally concentrated on Roshar and his shard is unguarded maybe it's possible for Hoid to reach Braize and destroy the shard of Odium.

[Karger he/him]

10 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

o imagine if Odium appoints a champion. And this person in turn created Odium's perpendicularity on Roshar

Being a champion does not give you the capacity to open a perpendicularity.

11 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

In that moment when Odium is literally concentrated on Roshar and his shard is unguarded maybe it's possible for Hoid to reach Braize and destroy the shard of Odium.

Odium is literally everywhere.  He can take physical presence if he so chooses and it might be possible to kill the vessel if that happens with the right weapon but Hoid can't hurt anyone himself.

[Wyndle88 he/him]

22 minutes ago, Karger said:

Being a champion does not give you the capacity to open a perpendicularity.

Odium is literally everywhere.  He can take physical presence if he so chooses and it might be possible to kill the vessel if that happens with the right weapon but Hoid can't hurt anyone himself.

I thought if he came physically to Roshar, Cultivation would end him.

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Wyndle88 said:

I thought if he came physically to Roshar, Cultivation would end him.

Odium is currently trapped on Braize by the combined powers of Honor and Cultivation.  He can't strike at the stormfather because doing so would leave him open to an attack by Cultivation.   Shards also don't really go anywhere physically.  It is more that they choose to focus on one thing or another or they can have their focus contained.

[Wyndle88 he/him]

Just now, Karger said:

Odium is currently trapped on Braize by the combined powers of Honor and Cultivation.  He can't strike at the stormfather because doing so would leave him open to an attack by Cultivation.   Shards also don't really go anywhere physically.  It is more that they choose to focus on one thing or another or they can have their focus contained.

I thought they literally picked up 16 pieces of Adonalsium and got in turn invested by the intent of the particular Shard post Asension. 

[Wyndle88 he/him]

Was Braize Damnation prior Odium being concentrated there?

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Odium is currently trapped on Braize by the combined powers of Honor and Cultivation.  He can't strike at the stormfather because doing so would leave him open to an attack by Cultivation.   Shards also don't really go anywhere physically.  It is more that they choose to focus on one thing or another or they can have their focus contained.

Was Braize Damnation prior Odium being concentrated there?

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

I thought they literally picked up 16 pieces of Adonalsium and got in turn invested by the intent of the particular Shard post Asension. 

They did.  Also don't double post.

Just now, Wyndle88 said:

Was Braize Damnation prior Odium being concentrated there?

We don't really know what it was like before Odium was there.  However calling it damnation is really a cultural thing on Roshar.  No one really goes their when they die(except the Heralds).

Edited April 19, 2020 by Karger

[Wyndle88 he/him]

Sorry 

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

They did.  Also don't double post.

Double post by mistake. First time posting.

 

 

So If Odium appoints a champion and gets defeated does that make Odium weak enough for Cultivation to attack ?

[Wyndle88 he/him]

41 minutes ago, Karger said:

Being a champion does not give you the capacity to open a perpendicularity.

 

If a Radiant is killed the respective spren becomes weak and loses Sentience right? It is mentioned in Oathbringer that Honor changed ...before Recreance...if Szeth is a new type of Skybreaker, Dalinar is the champion of the new Honor. Previous Bondsmiths couldn't do what he did as Unity by creating Honor's Perpendicularity(HP) in Thaylen City.

So maybe Odium will find another Champion who with His current knowledge will have to go against HP weilding Dalinar. So if the champion induces a perpendicularity will that weaken Odium in Braize?

 

[Karger he/him]

33 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

Double post by mistake. First time posting.

It happens.

 

34 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

So If Odium appoints a champion and gets defeated does that make Odium weak enough for Cultivation to attack ?

Probably not.  A contest of champions works because Odium has to keep his word.  Odium will wager on a champion because he is immortal and even if this one doesn't go as he wants he can stick around for another try latter.  Having a champion won't weaken Odium.  It will just force him to comply with the other half of the bargain.

25 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

If a Radiant is killed the respective spren becomes weak and loses Sentience right?

You can edit previous posts.  Double posting is a no no.  If a Radiant dies their spren is traumatized and lacks a physical realm anchor so they will probably head back cognitive if they can. 

27 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

It is mentioned in Oathbringer that Honor changed ...before Recreance

He was dying. 

27 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

if Szeth is a new type of Skybreaker

He is not.  He is just a Skybreaker who views things differently then the older establishment. 

28 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

Dalinar is the champion of the new Honor

Dalinar is actually currently appointed as Odium's champion.  He holds the largest remnant of Honor's power because of his bond with the stormfather.

29 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

Previous Bondsmiths couldn't do what he did as Unity by creating Honor's Perpendicularity(HP) in Thaylen City.

Yes.  Dalinar has access to more investiture then a previous stormfather bond because Honor lest what was left of his power to the stormfather.

30 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

So maybe Odium will find another Champion

He can't.  Not without Dalinar's permission anyway.  The two of them made a deal.  Odium has to stick by it.

31 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

So if the champion induces a perpendicularity will that weaken Odium in Braize?

I seriously doubt that Odium will ever allow anyone to hold enough of his power to open a perpendicularity.  To answer your question though I don't really think so or at least not noticeably.  Mistborn spoilers.

Spoiler

Preservation did something like this once.

 

[Wyndle88 he/him]

Omg.... didn't connect with Mistborn spoilers....yeah Odium wouldn't do that....Also when Dalinar and Odium was discussing the deal...only confirmed part is Odium will agree to appoint a champion. The part about Dalinar being Odium champion was rejected by Dalinar and without a proper agreement with correct specific words with intent has not been agreed between Dalinar and Odium. So I'm not very convinced Dalinar as Odium champion.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Wyndle88 said:

So I'm not very convinced Dalinar as Odium champion

That is possible.

[IcaroRibeiro he/him]

On 3/18/2020 at 3:42 PM, Ashspren said:

Nice, that rhymes. (Just a gut reaction, sorry. )

Actually, there are two more. Yes, if he wants Odium's power, he would have to cut a deal with Rayse. That being said, he also needs the power of Cultivation. I think it's more likely that the Book 4 epilogue will show Hoid getting a boon/bane from the Nightwatcher.

Hoid really despises Rayse, and I truly believe that it would take a life-threatening event to force him into a deal. However, with the presence of Nightblood on Roshar... well, that leaves room for some very interesting occurrences. If Odium gets his hands on Nightblood, then perhaps a deal isn't too far off. 

In my opinion, your idea of Hoid on Braize talking to Rayse sounds like a perfect, suspenseful epilogue for Book 5, closing out the first arc. I love the idea of it!

I agree, what an epic epilogue it would be

[ArcticWindrunner he/him]

On 4/19/2020 at 8:08 PM, Karger said:

Dalinar is actually currently appointed as Odium's champion.

That's not correct, from what I remember from the end of Oathbringer. Odium wants Dalinar as his champion, but Dalinar rejected him and then yeeted investiture in Odiums face o something like that.

[Karger he/him]

46 minutes ago, ArcticWindrunner said:

That's not correct, from what I remember from the end of Oathbringer. Odium wants Dalinar as his champion, but Dalinar rejected him and then yeeted investiture in Odiums face o something like that.

Debatable.  We don't know if you can turn down a position as Odium's champion.  It would be better for team Radiant if Dalinar was Odium's champion cause then he could just tap out.

[ArcticWindrunner he/him]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Debatable.  We don't know if you can turn down a position as Odium's champion.  It would be better for team Radiant if Dalinar was Odium's champion cause then he could just tap out.

From what I remember, Odium claims he has been directing and grooming Dalinar to be his champion. Then Dalinar has the epic fantasy moment of "NO! I control my destiny!" and then opened Honor's Perpendicularity. I don't see anywhere where he says that Dalinar has to be his champion, or that his deal with Odium means he has to fight on Odium's behalf even if he doesn't want to. Not to mention that Rayse probably no longer wants Dalinar to be his champion. Personally I think that Moash is gonna end up being Odium's Champion.

[Karger he/him]

Just now, ArcticWindrunner said:

Then Dalinar has the epic fantasy moment of "NO! I control my destiny!" and then opened Honor's Perpendicularity.

Yes but "I have chosen my champion already..." with a direct implication that he is talking about Dalinar might count as an appointment. 

[Chiberty]

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes but "I have chosen my champion already..." with a direct implication that he is talking about Dalinar might count as an appointment. 

It isn't supposed to be clear.

Quote

Questioner

At what point when writing Dalinar's character did you realize that he was going to become the <champion>?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, I am not going to answer that, because you're answering about future books. Sneaky, sneaky. There you go, that's not confirmed yet.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)