Shallan's father's Soulcaster, Luesh, and the Real Davar Ghostblood(s)

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

A motive for the skybreakers killing Amaram has already been established. I feel like now the goal is to justify the methods. Here's a shot. 

They can't do it they're normal way. Amaram has a spotless record and is immune to most punishments anyways as a highlord under Alethi law. So the resort to drastic measures to kill a major enemy. Recruit someone that they have no intention of letting into the order, shard him up (with left over shards from the recreance), and cross their fingers. As to why they wouldn't retrieve the shards? The aforementioned legal immunity and if they have one set of recreance shards the probably have a TON.

Also the WoB pretty much nails down he is working for the Skybreakers not the GB.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[NameIess]

Or it could just be that Helaran, an impulsive young man, after being given shards, and seeing Radiants, hears that Amaran is one of the leaders of the sons of Honor, and impusively decides to "prove" himself worthy of becoming a Skybreaker. He goes out in an unsanctioned attack on Amaran, and the rest is history.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

21 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

A motive for the skybreakers killing Amaram has already been established. I feel like now the goal is to justify the methods. Here's a shot. 

They can't do it they're normal way. Amaram has a spotless record and is immune to most punishments anyways as a highlord under Alethi law. So the resort to drastic measures to kill a major enemy. Recruit someone that they have no intention of letting into the order, shard him up (with left over shards from the recreance), and cross their fingers. As to why they wouldn't retrieve the shards? The aforementioned legal immunity and if they have one set of recreance shards the probably have a TON.

Also the WoB pretty much nails down he is working for the Skybreakers not the GB.

Sorry,  not buying it. They're a bunch of flying lawyers, I'm sure that they could find a loophole to exploit if they really wanted to.  Plus,  Amaram doesn't know anything,  he moves in circles with people in the know but he doesn't know enough to harm anything or to bring about his stated goals. If he knew enough then he'd have different goals. 

Are the Skybreakers ruthless enough to use someone like Helaran as cannon fodder? Sure. But it doesn't really fit their methods imo. Easier to deter him then to send assassins to perform an illegal act and risk the approval of their spren.  The scenario laid out, if you replaced Skybreakers with Ghostbloods it sounds much more plausible.  Maybe with them being a secret society they'd have to engage in such activities from time to time,  but I wouldn't waste my evil card on Amaram were I them.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

So you're saying the Skybreakers gave him a set of shards and told him to kill Amaram

I think it more likely that he was given the shards as a test to see what he would do with them.  A test I would say he failed.  He lost his shards, his life, and did no one any good, also he may not have followed the law explicitly while doing so.

43 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Recruit someone that they have no intention of letting into the order, shard him up (with left over shards from the recreance), and cross their fingers. As to why they wouldn't retrieve the shards? The aforementioned legal immunity and if they have one set of recreance shards the probably have a TON.

This also makes sense.

19 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Or it could just be that Helaran, an impulsive young man, after being given shards, and seeing Radiants, hears that Amaran is one of the leaders of the sons of Honor, and impusively decides to "prove" himself worthy of becoming a Skybreaker. He goes out in an unsanctioned attack on Amaran, and the rest is history.

That is what I think.

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Sorry,  not buying it. They're a bunch of flying lawyers, I'm sure that they could find a loophole to exploit if they really wanted to

Contrary to popular opinion lawyers are not magical.  Especially in a nation where a class of people are above the law.

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Plus,  Amaram doesn't know anything,  he moves in circles with people in the know but he doesn't know enough to harm anything or to bring about his stated goals. If he knew enough then he'd have different goals. 

We don't know what he actually knew.  He can do a lot of damage(personal friend to the most powerful person on the planet remember?).  His stated goal is to bring back the desolations to bring back the Herald.  He does not actually know how this works but he is actually getting close to causing a desolation.  If he contacted Venli of the listeners for example she could have helped him along and that was what he was trying to do at the time.

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Easier to deter him then to send assassins to perform an illegal act and risk the approval of their spren

Idiotic fanatics can be easily deterred from their stated goals?  Please tell me how.  I have a few genocides to stop(this is an example not an insult).

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Maybe with them being a secret society they'd have to engage in such activities from time to time,  but I wouldn't waste my evil card on Amaram were I them.

Then who?  Keep timing in mind.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Karger

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

35 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Or it could just be that Helaran, an impulsive young man, after being given shards, and seeing Radiants, hears that Amaran is one of the leaders of the sons of Honor, and impusively decides to "prove" himself worthy of becoming a Skybreaker. He goes out in an unsanctioned attack on Amaran, and the rest is history.

My only problem with this is that I do t understand why the skybreakers would just hand out shards without a specific purpose.

[NameIess]

31 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

My only problem with this is that I do t understand why the skybreakers would just hand out shards without a specific purpose.

They thought Heleran was a Radiant, or on his way to being one, so they gave him shards to stop him from becoming one, to wow him with their power, and to tell if he was one already.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

6 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They thought Heleran was a Radiant, or on his way to being one, so they gave him shards to stop him from becoming one, to wow him with their power, and to tell if he was one already.

But if they thought he was a Radient candidate they would have killed him or recruited him. Neither of those (especially the first ) involves giving him shards. 

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But if they thought he was a Radient candidate they would have killed him or recruited him. Neither of those (especially the first ) involves giving him shards.

When they gave him the shards, they were testing to see whether or not he had bonded a Spren. If he had, then he would have had difficulty earning the blade, and if he hadn't (as was the case) the shards would keep him from bonding the Spren until they saw whether or not he was Skybreaker material. As it turned out, he was killed, so they never got to figure out that they got the wrong Davar.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

When they gave him the shards, they were testing to see whether or not he had bonded a Spren. If he had, then he would have had difficulty earning the blade, and if he hadn't (as was the case) the shards would keep him from bonding the Spren until they saw whether or not he was Skybreaker material. As it turned out, he was killed, so they never got to figure out that they got the wrong Davar.

But I'm sure they have a lot more efficient ways to teat for radiency. And that's not how they go about recruiting. There's never a mention of that recruiting tactic in Szeths training scenes. It just seems a bit far fetched. 

[NameIess]

3 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But I'm sure they have a lot more efficient ways to teat for radiency. And that's not how they go about recruiting. There's never a mention of that recruiting tactic in Szeths training scenes. It just seems a bit far fetched. 

But Heleran is both a suspected Radiant and the son of a noble. He isn't a normal recruit.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

44 minutes ago, Nameless said:

But Heleran is both a suspected Radiant and the son of a noble. He isn't a normal recruit.

All recruits are suspected radients? That's why they're recruits.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I can think of a few people more important than Amaram if they want to use an evil card on someone.  How about the guy Amaram takes orders from? Restates could get it, and with more justification. Gavilar would have been a prime candidate if the listeners had failed. King T if they figured his plans out is another more worthy candidate. 

As far as deterring Amaram,  all they'd have to do is what Odium did. Show the guy a Herald.  They conveniently have one on hand. And if he was impressed with nearly catatonic Taln, how much more impressed would he be with Nale? That they did not shows me that they didn't find his organization to be a threat; after all they were way off track. 

As for testing methods for Radiance,  they have Highspren, meaning some conversation with the Cognitive Realm.  If they found Ym, an unimportant shoemaker on the back end of nowhere, they can find anyone.  The Ghostbloods cannot boast a testing method that good. What they can do is find some Shards for the guy and point him at an enemy,  see what he'd do.

Lastly,  the Ghostbloods have already shown in the narrative that they wanted Amaram to sleep with the fishes. The why isn't clear but the intent to murder was. He just slipped away.  

[NameIess]

23 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

All recruits are suspected radients? That's why they're recruits.

I am pretty sure that the vast majority of the recruits are not suspected Radiants, but instead people who show promise as a Skybreaker (like Szeth).

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I am pretty sure that the vast majority of the recruits are not suspected Radiants, but instead people who show promise as a Skybreaker (like Szeth).

But Szeth was a suspected radient.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But I'm sure they have a lot more efficient ways to teat for radiency. And that's not how they go about recruiting. There's never a mention of that recruiting tactic in Szeths training scenes. It just seems a bit far fetched. 

I fully agree...

All these hand-waving theories about exactly how and why Nalan and the Skybreakers might have treated Helaran differently than any of the other (several other) Skybreaker recruits, acolytes, squires, and trainees we've seen them do, are just that - making Heleran a very strange special case.

Versus the much, much simpler explanation, that isn't even mind-blowing at all: Mraize was lying about Helaran being a Skybreaker acolyte. And eventually, perhaps even this November, we will find out why.

There is also the possibility that Mraize himself was misled about that, and was writing what he thought was the truth to Shallan. But c'mon.

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But Szeth was a suspected radient.

No, Nalan Regrowthed him to recruit him for the Skybreakers, saying he had never seen anyone more worthy of bonding a highspren. That's not a "suspected Radiant" the way he hunted down Ym, Lift, and so on, who had already bonded another kind of spren, a bond that could only be undone by death.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But I'm sure they have a lot more efficient ways to teat for radiency.

Even someone like Shallan?

36 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

How about the guy Amaram takes orders from? Restates could get it, and with more justification

No one seems to know where he is.  I suspect it is a remote and secure location.  He seems to give orders by spanreeds.

38 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Gavilar would have been a prime candidate if the listeners had failed

He was dead.

38 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

King T if they figured his plans out is another more worthy candidate. 

They don't seem to know about King T.  With the exception of Mraize who might under estimate him no one does.

40 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

That they did not shows me that they didn't find his organization to be a threat; after all they were way off track. 

He was trying to contact Venli(he did not know at the time but if he made contact that is where he would have gotten) and was getting unnervingly close.

42 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Lastly,  the Ghostbloods have already shown in the narrative that they wanted Amaram to sleep with the fishes.

That was much much latter and the GB may have been trying to kidnap Taln instead.  Remember they specifically warned Shallan not to kill him.

16 minutes ago, robardin said:

All these hand-waving theories about exactly how and why Nalan and the Skybreakers might have treated Helaran differently than any of the other (several other) Skybreaker recruits, acolytes, squires, and trainees we've seen them do, are just that - making Heleran a very strange special case.

Giving someone a blade as trust and test is not hand wavy.  In fact it is kind of a minor heroic saga on its own.  Nale is gathering evidence on how this person behaves with a blade. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

That was much much latter and the GB may have been trying to kidnap Taln instead.  Remember they specifically warned Shallan not to kill him.

The specific warning was for Shallan not to kill Amaram because he was someone else's prey. Presumably Iyatal since she tried to dart him in Taln's cell.

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Giving someone a blade as trust and test is not hand wavy.  In fact it is kind of a minor heroic saga on its own.  Nale is gathering evidence on how this person behaves with a blade. 

If the training is effective then there's no need to gather that type of subjective evidence.  

As I continue to mention,  the Skybreakers never lost faith with their spren.  Spren live in the Cognitive Realm,  are closer to the Spiritual Realm.  And spren are attracted to their bondmate candidates. It's gonna be hard for any potential Radiant to hide what they are in the Cognitive Realm and there will be indications.  Why would anyone give up Shards to test a potential candidate when they have access to a being that can look  directly into a person's soul? Or see the type of spren they draw? Or get a life record straight from the Spiritual Realm? Much surer than giving a random dude a set of Shards and letting him run off with no supervision. 

[Karger he/him]

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The specific warning was for Shallan not to kill Amaram because he was someone else's prey. Presumably Iyatal since she tried to dart him in Taln's cell.

That was  Mraize no(not that it matters)?  I also don't see why they would care who kills him.  They seem way too pragmatic for that.

9 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If the training is effective then there's no need to gather that type of subjective evidence.  

Radiance is not like arithmetic.  Even within one order each person has different understandings that need to be developed and flaws that need to be overcome.  Granting the blade is an excellent subjective test for someone that is feared to be overzealous or uncontrolled. 

10 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Why would anyone give up Shards to test a potential candidate when they have access to a being that can look directly into a person's soul?

Souls can alter over time as new experiences are gained.  Nale's goal is to make it so that exactly one type of spren finds that soul attractive.  To do this he needs life changing lessons.

10 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Or get a life record straight from the Spiritual Realm? Much surer than giving a random dude a set of Shards and letting him run off with no supervision. 

I think he was supervised at least from a distance.  However they were patient enough let events play out.  Think about how old Nale is.  It does not stretch belief that he would wait a few decades to get the blade back.  To him that would be like waiting a few hours.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Radiance is not like arithmetic.  Even within one order each person has different understandings that need to be developed and flaws that need to be overcome.  Granting the blade is an excellent subjective test for someone that is feared to be overzealous or uncontrolled

Even if that were true (and it's not a method I'd use with better options available) Helaran is not that great a catch, not someone I'd risk so much on. He's noble but from a minor house, someone not in line for greater responsibility in Jah Kaved. His family was not rich or well placed, and was beset by misfortune. For Nale one human is pretty much like any other unless they can alter the history of a world. I can see someone going out on a limb for Szeth,  a human weapon unparalleled in modern Roshar. But Helaran?  Nothing I've read indicates to me that he was special.

But let's just say for the sake of argument that the Skybreakers policy is to give a candidate a set of Shards to test potential candidates for their Order. Do you really think Helaran was the only guy tested in this fashion? He couldn't be, there's gonna be others. So, how many? A quarter of the candidates? Half? All of them? Keep in mind that Shards are weapons of mass destruction in a world without Radiants. Wouldn't we have heard of this before?  Legends of a rogue Shardbearer or something?  Word would get out one way or another.  Even if you use a conservative estimate,  say 1/3 of all new age Skybreakers get the Helaran treatment,  word would get out. Shards are too flashy and too rare post Recreance for casual use not to be remarked upon. Even in Alethkar where they have more than their fair share of Shards, seeing someone sporting Blade and Plate is a rare occurrence. How could the Skybreakers keep that secret for over 2000 years?

 

[Karger he/him]

15 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Even if that were true (and it's not a method I'd use with better options available)

Tell me one.

16 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

He's noble but from a minor house, someone not in line for greater responsibility in Jah Kaved

We see no indication that Nale wants his people to have political power.  I don't really understand the kind of metric he grades on but I am fairly sure that is not it.

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I can see someone going out on a limb for Szeth,  a human weapon unparalleled in modern Roshar. But Helaran?  Nothing I've read indicates to me that he was special.

Well we know almost nothing about him.

18 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

But let's just say for the sake of argument that the Skybreakers policy is to give a candidate a set of Shards to test potential candidates for their Order

It is not policy.  The very word implies a standardized curriculum.  That is not always possible in an individual quest for excellence.  

19 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Do you really think Helaran was the only guy tested in this fashion? He couldn't be, there's gonna be others. So, how many? A quarter of the candidates? Half? All of them? Keep in mind that Shards are weapons of mass destruction in a world without Radiants. Wouldn't we have heard of this before?  Legends of a rogue Shardbearer or something? 

Rouge shardbearers are common enough that the Theylen vault is designed with them in mind and the king's guard is trained with them as a possibility.

21 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

How could the Skybreakers keep that secret for over 2000 years?

You are also assuming that a large number of Skybreakers were as spectacular a failure as Heleran appears to have been. Many probably just used them against thugs in back ally streets or to exact personal vengeance in a quite manner or showed restraint and did not use them at all.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

The better options available are the same ones a spren uses to find their bondmate. I would call that better than sending a raw recruit into a crucible with no training at all. If you think someone will be at all useful to your cause it's not wise to immediately throw them into the deep end. That should be especially true for an organization that prizes the law as highly as the Skybreakers do.

The Thaylen vault is designed to repel Shardbearers. Not just rogue Shardbearers,  Shardbearers period.  However in practical terms the design is to stop them when they are accompanied by an army. No military strategist on Roshar would believe one guy with Shards would be stupid enough to rush the vault on their own. The established military doctrine is that a Shardbearer cannot hold ground. 

As far as one Shardbearer performing vigilante justice or settling personal scores,  remember how a Shardblade kills. You think a bunch of corpses with burnt out eyes aren't going to attract notice? Why do you think the assassin Jasnah hires cuts the eyes from her victims?  And even she's notorious. 

And while it is true that we know little of Helaran,  the way he bumbled on the battlefield and the way he failed indicates to me that he wasn't all that special to begin with. The only indication that he may have been special is that he was recruited in the first place. But recruits do not always work out.  Anyone who has seen a professional sports draft could tell you that. 

So if the Skybreakers were the ones to employ Helaran then one of these things are true. Either he was special in some way or the way he was handled was standard practice.  If he's special he certainly didn't look like it. His plan was stupid and he failed in any case despite his superior weaponry.  Adolin for example chops pre-Radiant Kaladin to pieces and buries his Shardblade in Amaram's chest. If it's standard practice then the Skybreakers could not possibly have stayed secret for so long. Simpler by far to say either Helaran didn't know who he was really working for or Mraize was lying. 

[Karger he/him]

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The better options available are the same ones a spren uses to find their bondmate. I would call that better than sending a raw recruit into a crucible with no training at all.

He clearly had a bit of training.  A good years worth at least by Shallan's wildly inaccurate memories. 

13 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

However in practical terms the design is to stop them when they are accompanied by an army

Why would you bother?  If the city is falling then the bank is not on your list of priorities.  To get to the vault you would need a large wall breach and no shardbear is going to waste time getting to a bank when political centers can be attacked instead.  I am pretty sure the vault is made to stop a rouge shardbearer from seeking in and robbing them by cutting through walls.

16 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

As far as one Shardbearer performing vigilante justice or settling personal scores,  remember how a Shardblade kills. You think a bunch of corpses with burnt out eyes aren't going to attract notice? Why do you think the assassin Jasnah hires cuts the eyes from her victims?  And even she's notorious. 

He had plate too and if your target is not high profile no one is going to notice for days and by then bodies look the same.

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

And while it is true that we know little of Helaran,  the way he bumbled on the battlefield and the way he failed indicates to me that he wasn't all that special to begin with

He was seconds away from completing his mission.  If Kaladin was any less Kaladin he would have finished Amaram off.  That hardly qualifies as bumbling.

18 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

But recruits do not always work out.  Anyone who has seen a professional sports draft could tell you that. 

But what do the skybrearkers do with failed drafts?  They seem to value their secrecy.

19 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Either he was special in some way or the way he was handled was standard practice

Or they thought it might be beneficial for him to have them for some other reason.  Perhaps he was just a courier or a guard for example. 

20 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If he's special he certainly didn't look like it

We know basically nothing about him personally.

21 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

His plan was stupid and he failed in any case despite his superior weaponry

Kaladin is an anomaly and Kaladin and got super lucky.

22 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Adolin for example chops pre-Radiant Kaladin to pieces

Adolin might be the best on the planet.  That is not a good comparison.  Without Kaladin the mission is an easy success with minimal use of force necessary let alone used. 

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If it's standard practice then the Skybreakers could not possibly have stayed secret for so long.

Considering the number of assassinations that happen on Roshar and the amount of warfare specifically in eastern roshar and the poor communication for a lot of rosharan history I actually don't see that it would be hard to keep secret.

Here is a scenario.  Nale and Skybreaker in charge of Heleran(SCH)

SCH "He is doing fine and near completing his training but I am worried about his zeal.  It could be a problem"

Nale "Give him the old shards test I will sign the necessary papers"

SCH "Could be risky"

Nale "We don't do it often but in his case I believe it could prove illuminating.  The risk is worth it."

SCH "It will be done"

Nale "Paperwork!"

Does this seem less then reasonable?  Also do the math.  I am going to highball and say their are 200 skybreakers at a time(not counting squires).  Assuming each serves for 50 years(another highball) they would need replacing at a rate of a about 5 per year.  If one in 70 takes the test you only get this every 14 years.  Assuming that 75% of tests pass without noticeable incidents(I think a well designed test should have this success rate at minimum) 42 years can pass without anything like this happening on average.  I find it much more likely that Skybreakers get discovered by flying or using shards and surgbindings to prevent petty theft.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Adolin might be the best on the planet.  That is not a good comparison.  Without Kaladin the mission is an easy success with minimal use of force necessary let alone used. 

On the contrary,  Adolin is the best on the planet,  therefore worthy of a test of this nature. Helaran is not special. 

Look, we have possibly argued this point into the ground.  The bottom line for me is that it stretches probability beyond the breaking point that Helaran was a Skybreaker recruit,  that they operate in such a reckless manner,  that the Ghostbloods and Mraize in particular were being truthful in their letter on this point. I can accept that you don't agree. So, just to facilitate conversation,  what exactly do you feel is going on with this situation? 

[ScavellTane]

I don't think Helaran was with the Skybreakers, when they moved to join the Singers, there was no mention of collecting shards, just gemstones.

Quote

“Before you swear, Szeth-son-Neturo,” Nin said, “there are things you need to understand.” He looked across the Skybreakers. “Things you all must understand. Squires, masters, gather our gemstone reserves and mobile packs. We will leave most of the squires. They leak Stormlight too much, and we have a long way to go.”

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by ScavellTane