Can the oathgarespren be restored

[Broseph]

This might have been asked elsewhere but is there a way to undo sja-asnat corruption/let the oathgate transport people to kholinar again?

[+robardin he/him]

We don't know how Sja-anat does what she does, or what "it" actually is, or if her ability to corrupt Oathgate spren is something new (why hasn't Odium made her do this in any previous Desolations?) or something only possible under specific or extraordinary circumstances.

Evidently she was expected to be able to "reprogram" the Oathgate spren to kill any users, but she instead claimed she only managed to get them to redirect users to Shadesmar, and implied that was a lie that Odium believed (i.e., Odium doesn't know the exact limits or mechanism of her power, and she COULD have made it a fatal passage but did not).

So why have her modify just the Kholinar Oathgate - does Odium have to control the territory in the Physical Realm somehow first? And why were the Fused were guarding the Oathgate to Thaylen City in the Cognitive Realm when Oathgates can't be used in the CR any more (but it still worked normally to transport Radiant Teft and Bridge Four to Thaylen City)?

Read and Find Out is the only real answer here.

[Quantus he/him]

If nothing else, the Oathgate Spren spoke chull if they are still Loyal to Honor and doing as he instructed (since He was apparently the one that banned Shadesmar travel through them).  So Honor could probably just order them to do things and counter any effects of the corruption that way, thought he'd probably also be able to simply Purge it directly by the power of Shardic Awesome.  

[mathwin]

I'm surprised that no one has yet pointed out that Sja-anat has already un-corrupted them.  They must be in regular working order for the Listeners to have used the Oathgate to attack Urithiru during the Battle of Thaylen City.

[Honorless he/him]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

why were the Fused were guarding the Oathgate to Thaylen City in the Cognitive Realm when Oathgates can't be used in the CR any more (but it still worked normally to transport Radiant Teft and Bridge Four to Thaylen City)?

that one's because they wanted to catch the Radiants and prevent them from reaching Thaylen City to influence the outcome of the battle/interfere with the selection of Odium's champion. They knew that the Radiants were in Shadesmar by this point & it made logical sense to prevent them from possibly joining up. They might've also had a team near Urithiru around this time since Odium's forces didn't know where the team might ultimately choose to go, plus they wanted to invade Urithiru and presumably by this time had already been contacted by Taravangian

@Broseph, you misspelled Oathgatespren as "oathgarespren"

Edited February 7, 2020 by Honorless

[+robardin he/him]

20 minutes ago, Honorless said:

that one's because they wanted to catch the Radiants and prevent them from reaching Thaylen City to influence the outcome of the battle/interfere with the selection of Odium's champion. They knew that the Radiants were in Shadesmar by this point & it made logical sense to prevent them from possibly joining up. They might've also had a team near Urithiru around this time since Odium's forces didn't know where the team might ultimately choose to go, plus they wanted to invade Urithiru and presumably by this time had already been contacted by Taravangian

@Broseph, you misspelled Oathgatespren as "oathgarespren"

But the Oathgates were locked from use from the Cognitive Realm. No reason to protect them, it would seem. Unless Team Odium didn't know that?

But you're right, it could just be that those Fused were sent there after the Fused on their tail in the CR their tail tracked them to the spren market and to the honorspren ship, and realizing their destination, sought to meet them there. Basically they were cornered with the Oathgate inoperable from the CR... Until UNITY happened.

[Quantus he/him]

54 minutes ago, mathwin said:

I'm surprised that no one has yet pointed out that Sja-anat has already un-corrupted them.  They must be in regular working order for the Listeners to have used the Oathgate to attack Urithiru during the Battle of Thaylen City.

She only corrupted the Oathgate in Alethkar, which if Im not mistaken was uninvolved with that maneuver. 

[Karger he/him]

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

She only corrupted the Oathgate in Alethkar, which if Im not mistaken was uninvolved with that maneuver. 

That is what we think although it is theoretically possible that all oathgatespren are actually the same spren somehow in multiple places at the same time.  She also may have done the same to the gates in Iri and Rira by now. 

[Quantus he/him]

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is what we think although it is theoretically possible that all oathgatespren are actually the same spren somehow in multiple places at the same time.  She also may have done the same to the gates in Iri and Rira by now. 

Well, I guess I cant say it's impossible but it would be the very first example of a Spren capable of bi-locating in the Cognitive Realm.  We know for a fact it's impossible in the Physical Realm (ie all those dual-wielding conversations), and we know Distance remains relevant in the cognative to the point that Blade summoning can have distance-based delays.  So I doubt it.

[+robardin he/him]

2 hours ago, mathwin said:

I'm surprised that no one has yet pointed out that Sja-anat has already un-corrupted them.  They must be in regular working order for the Listeners to have used the Oathgate to attack Urithiru during the Battle of Thaylen City.

Interesting point...

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

She only corrupted the Oathgate in Alethkar, which if Im not mistaken was uninvolved with that maneuver. 

Oh, it was. It was in Chapter 115 of Oathbringer, after Teft was fleeing in shame from the discovery that Bridge Four had been betrayed, and the Honorblade of Jezrien taken from its bearer, because an enemy agent (apparently human... Which they haven't thought too much about just yet) was disguised as a Bridge Four member with the coat he'd sold for firemoss money. His as yet unnamed to us honorspren followed him:

Quote

"Teft."

"You don't want me. I'm broken. Pick Lopen. Rock. Sigzil. Damnation, woman. I..."

What was that?

Drawn by faint sounds, Teft walked into the empty room. Those sounds... Shouts?

He walked out onto the balcony. Below, figures with marbled skin flooded across one of the Oathgate platforms, the one that led to Kholinar. That was supposed to be locked, unusable.

Scouts and soldiers began to shout in panic down below. Urithiru was under attack.

Whatever Sja-anat did to send Shallan, Kaladin, and Adolin into Shadesmar when they tried to use it, it worked properly for the forces of Odium to reach Urithiru. Maybe it's just under her direct control now or something.

One more comment of some potential interest: when Dalinar tells Lift to go after the Fused who took the King's Drop ruby at Thaylen Fields (in Ch. 117 of Oathbringer), Odium comes up to him with Venli and Nergaoul and a couple of Fused. Before engaging Dalinar in parley (where Dalinar will once again demand a contest of champions), he gives orders to the Fused who were with him:

Quote

Tell Yushah I want her to stay out here and guard the prison. Kai-garnis did well destroying the wall; tell her to return to the city and climb toward the Oathgate. If the Tisark can't secure it, she is to destroy the device and recover its gemstones. We can rebuild it as long as the spren aren't compromised.

• What is "the prison" that Yushah (presumably a Fused) is supposed to guard?
• Kai-garnis appears to be the name of the thunderclast that was going to the Oathgate that Renarin dispatched.
• The Tisark, then, appear to be the name of the group of Fushed that Renarin found at the Thaylen City Oathgate, that Teft and Bridge Four burst forth from.

What happened in Urithiru with the attack through the Kholinar gate? If the Fused withdrew after securing the Honorblade, did they re-seal the Oathgate with Sja-anat's influence?

And relevant to this discussion, one can destroy the Oathgate structure, but the gemstones therein are critical to rebuilding it, and the spren (the big white/black ones) cannot be "compromised"... Which I guess doesn't count for whatever it is Sja-anat did/does to them.

Edited February 7, 2020 by robardin

[ScavellTane]

I would think the corruption allows the Oathgate to be used to get in and out of the CR. It doesn't need to be un-corrupted to function for PR transport.

[Quantus he/him]

18 minutes ago, robardin said:

Interesting point...

Oh, it was. It was in Chapter 115 of Oathbringer, after Teft was fleeing in shame from the discovery that Bridge Four had been betrayed, and the Honorblade of Jezrien taken from its bearer, because an enemy agent (apparently human... Which they haven't thought too much about just yet) was disguised as a Bridge Four member with the coat he'd sold for firemoss money. His as yet unnamed to us honorspren followed him:

Whatever Sja-anat did to send Shallan, Kaladin, and Adolin into Shadesmar when they tried to use it, it worked properly for the forces of Odium to reach Urithiru. Maybe it's just under her direct control now or something.

Ah, fair enough.  I though the Singers invadin Urithiru had come from one of the other city's

18 minutes ago, robardin said:

One more comment of some potential interest: when Dalinar tells Lift to go after the Fused who took the King's Drop ruby at Thaylen Fields (in Ch. 117 of Oathbringer), Odium comes up to him with Venli and Nergaoul and a couple of Fused. Before engaging Dalinar in parley (where Dalinar will once again demand a contest of champions), he gives orders to the Fused who were with him:

• What is "the prison" that Yushah (presumably a Fused) is supposed to guard?
• Kai-garnis appears to be the name of the thunderclast that was going to the Oathgate that Renarin dispatched.
• The Tisark, then, appear to be the name of the group of Fushed that Renarin found at the Thaylen City Oathgate, that Teft and Bridge Four burst forth from.

What happened in Urithiru with the attack through the Kholinar gate? If the Fused withdrew after securing the Honorblade, did they re-seal the Oathgate with Sja-anat's influence?

And relevant to this discussion, one can destroy the Oathgate structure, but the gemstones therein are critical to rebuilding it, and the spren (the big white/black ones) cannot be "compromised"... Which I guess doesn't count for whatever it is Sja-anat did/does to them.

I would assume the Prison was the Kings Drop that he wanted kept away from the Radiants. 

Since it can activate an Oathgate, I would presume that the Honorblade would have been able to re-seal it int he "normal" way. 

Well, if they are like other lesser Fabrials  the Gems are where the Spren would actually reside, so recovering them recovers those special-seeming spren.  But if the gems were damaged/compromised the spren might be lost. 

[Karger he/him]

11 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

I would think the corruption allows the Oathgate to be used to get in and out of the CR.

That seems to be a normal function of oathgate's per the othgatespren's statement that travel to and from the CR is now forbidden.

51 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Well, I guess I cant say it's impossible but it would be the very first example of a Spren capable of bi-locating in the Cognitive Realm.  We know for a fact it's impossible in the Physical Realm (ie all those dual-wielding conversations), and we know Distance remains relevant in the cognative to the point that Blade summoning can have distance-based delays.  So I doubt it.

I was thinking about spanreads.

[+robardin he/him]

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Ah, fair enough.  I though the Singers invadin Urithiru had come from one of the other city's

I would assume the Prison was the Kings Drop that he wanted kept away from the Radiants. 

Since it can activate an Oathgate, I would presume that the Honorblade would have been able to re-seal it int he "normal" way. 

Well, if they are like other lesser Fabrials  the Gems are where the Spren would actually reside, so recovering them recovers those special-seeming spren.  But if the gems were damaged/compromised the spren might be lost. 

Ahhh of course! So would any "perfect gem" of sufficient size serve to imprison even so great a spren as an Unmade?

[Quantus he/him]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

That seems to be a normal function of oathgate's per the othgatespren's statement that travel to and from the CR is now forbidden.

I was thinking about spanreads.

D'oh, of course, excellent point!  Wow, now I really want to see what a Spanreed spren looks like in Shadesmar, splitting their Gem suddenly sounds a little horrific.  

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

Ahhh of course! So would any "perfect gem" of sufficient size serve to imprison even so great a spren as an Unmade?

Yup, if it's perfect enough to hold stormlight indefinitely, it's perfect enough to imprison even a sentient Spren like the Unmade.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Quantus

[Karger he/him]

7 minutes ago, Quantus said:

D'oh, of course, excellent point!  Wow, now I really want to see what a Spanreed spren looks like in Shadesmar,

Agreed.

7 minutes ago, Quantus said:

splitting their Gem suddenly sounds a little horrific.  

I actually think that this will sort of make conjoined twin smaller spren.  It is no more horrific then breaking a piece of bread in half.

[Quantus he/him]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

Agreed.

I actually think that this will sort of make conjoined twin smaller spren.  It is no more horrific then breaking a piece of bread in half.

Id say it's at least cutting a starfish in half.  Its probably not a full sentient spren but it's still alive and presumably able to feel pain (or the nerve-free spren equivalent).  

[Karger he/him]

28 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Id say it's at least cutting a starfish in half.  Its probably not a full sentient spren but it's still alive and presumably able to feel pain (or the nerve-free spren equivalent).  

Spren naturally produce other spren this way all the time.  Remember Hesina cutting roots?

[+robardin he/him]

I wonder what any kind of fabrial spren would look like in the CR, now that we've seen the Oathgate spren. Especially the "half shards" that Taravangian said were made by trapping spren "that otherwise might have blessed a Knight Radiant" - i.e., they're "true" sentient spren, not just flamespren or painspren. Or what about a fabrial that's worn, like a painrial, when entering into Shadesmar?

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by robardin

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Spren naturally produce other spren this way all the time.  Remember Hesina cutting roots?

No actually, what are you referring to?  I thought the only known path to reproducing spren was that whole wierd go into the Storm find one deal that seems to have been the way since the Stormfather took over, though that's sapient spren that certainly might be different.

[Honorless he/him]

I don't know about the Realmatics but narratively & thematically, it seems very likely that the Oathgates would become fully functional once more