Eye Color Listings

[Aether he/him]

I've not heard anywhere that using stormlight causes  their bodies to crystallize, where does that come from?

I know that extensive soul-casting can have an effect of that type, but I thought that was soul-casting specific.

Rampant conjecture, I suppose. There is a common hypothesis on the Forum that Knight Radiants would develop gemhearts, and this would only be a few step further along that path.

[Binnut he/him]

Rampant conjecture, I suppose. There is a common hypothesis on the Forum that Knight Radiants would develop gemhearts, and this would only be a few step further along that path.

 

Oh, Ok.

Yea, I've seen that theory and I'm not sure what I think about it, but now I see the connection at least!

Thank you!

[Sphinx]

Hold on. I'm thinking.

I could imagine the propensity for binding might be passed on, and there's evidence for this (see most of the living Kholins) but maybe that doesn't include eye colour.

That is, maybe pre-bonding eye colour follows standard genetics.

Like. Say.

If a Dustbringer and a Windrunner both have blue eyes before they bond, after they have blue and red, they have kids, but they'll all be blue-eyed.

Also, as far as bonding Shardblades. Moash's eyes just lightened didn't they? They went from dark brown to light brown.

Buuuuut. Do we know if the children of shareholders are also lighteyed? A dark eyes getting a shard is rare enough to be nearly a myth.

I am spitballing, feel free to poke holes .

 

There seems to be some evidence that a lighteyes and a darkeyes who have children together will most likely have lighteyed children. (Kaladin's parents hope that he will be high enough nahn to marry Laral, and then have lighteyed children. I don't remember the exact quote, however, and if it implies the possibility of darkeyed children) Heterochromia seems to also be a possible result (the ruler of Jah Keved's bastard). There's significantly less evidence about how different eyecolors interact.

 

I think this suggests that eyecolor does not follow the genetics we're familiar with, and that becoming lighteyed fundamentally alters the genetics and mostly overrules darkeyes.

 

Do we know if Moash's eyes would remain light were he to lose the bond with his shardblade? I think if they remain light, we can expect that he would have lighteyed children. If they didn't, it might be more up in the air.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

My own hypothesis for how the genetics of it work is that surgebinders only pass on the lightness of their new eyes, not its color. So if they were brown-eyed, and became blue-eyed as a Windrunner, their children would still have brown eyes, just light ones as opposed to dark. And since no one naturally has red eyes except albinos, the trait of having light, red eyes would never occur without having a nahel bond.

[Pathfinder]

My own hypothesis for how the genetics of it work is that surgebinders only pass on the lightness of their new eyes, not its color. So if they were brown-eyed, and became blue-eyed as a Windrunner, their children would still have brown eyes, just light ones as opposed to dark. And since no one naturally has red eyes except albinos, the trait of having light, red eyes would never occur without having a nahel bond.

My one problem with this, is we DO see people with violet eyes in the book, and that is just as rare and is a incomplete form of albinism. 

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Rosharan physiology doesn't seem to be perfectly 1 to 1 with Earth. After all, hair color is coded differently in the genome, allowing for stripes of two different hair colors. I don't see why their violet eyes couldn't be natural to them.

Edit: And more weirdness, too. The Natan have blueish skin and white, wooly hair. Thaylen have enormous eyebrows. Iri are golden everywhere. There's lots of bizarre Rosharan mutations already, so eye color isn't that implausible.

Edited May 30, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Sphinx]

Rosharan physiology doesn't seem to be perfectly 1 to 1 with Earth. After all, hair color is coded differently in the genome, allowing for stripes of two different hair colors. I don't see why their violet eyes couldn't be natural to them.

Edit: And more weirdness, too. The Natan have blueish skin and white, wooly hair. Thaylen have enormous eyebrows. Iri are golden everywhere. There's lots of bizarre Rosharan mutations already, so eye color isn't that implausible.

I think the argument is that we have nothing to show us that red eyes is any more due to albinism on Roshar than violet eyes. Albinism is never mentioned in the books, that I can recall, and while no one we've yet seen has red eyes, that may be due to entirely Rosharan reasons. The bizarre mutations seem to suggest that eye colour, including red, won't follow the rules we are familiar with.

 

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that all other eye colours would be a bizarre Rosharan mutation, but red wouldn't be.

[signspace13 he/him]

I am personally liking the theory that shallan does not see herself as a knight Radiant yet, this means that her eyes have yet to change, it seems a lot of things in the cosmere are based on one's perception (or the perception of others) so why not this. Kaladin still see's himself as a slave (or at least as branded) so he still has his slave brands, I personally think that Shash will always scar his forehead because he will ALWAYS view himself as dangerous. Shallan does not yet see herself as important or as a Knight Radiant so she in affect does not have a Radiant's eyes yet.

 

What is the Gem for the eslecallers? does Jasnah's eye colour match?

[Guest]

I am personally liking the theory that shallan does not see herself as a knight Radiant yet, this means that her eyes have yet to change, it seems a lot of things in the cosmere are based on one's perception (or the perception of others) so why not this. Kaladin still see's himself as a slave (or at least as branded) so he still has his slave brands, I personally think that Shash will always scar his forehead because he will ALWAYS view himself as dangerous. Shallan does not yet see herself as important or as a Knight Radiant so she in affect does not have a Radiant's eyes yet.

 

What is the Gem for the eslecallers? does Jasnah's eye colour match?

 

They don't match. Elsecaller gem is light blue and Jasnah eyes are violet. I have trouble thinking that Jasnah does not see herself as Radiant. She obviously is very advanced in her Radianhood and she has good control over both her surges, unlike most of the others.

[Aether he/him]

she has good control over both her surges, unlike most of the others.

She doesn't. She has no idea what she's doing:

Q: Is Jasnah still alive at the end of the book, since the whole scene where she kind of appears...

A: Yes, she is.

Q: Why does she take so long to come back?

A: Because Elsecalling is not precise even if you know exactly what you're doing, which she doesn't.

<source>

Edited May 31, 2014 by Aether

[Guest]

She doesn't. She has no idea what she's doing:

 

Well, she is quite good with soulcasting... And she has been at it for the past 6 years, unlike most of the others, whom despite having a bond for many years, did not start to experiment their powers until the last few months. Kal started surgebinding something like what, a few months ago. In the case of Shallan, it is more a matter of weeks ago. Jasnah has obviously been at it for a longer period of time and she has no issues seeing herself as a Radiant. She says so to Shallan. I got the feeling she was not coming forward with it because, being Jasnah, she needed to have more solid proof of what she was about to announced. That and the fact that being a Radiant is not look favorably on these days.

[Aether he/him]

I meant specifically of the Transportation surge. I should have said so. And I am not sure how much she identifies herself as a Radiant. She's confident, sure, but I am not convinced she feels a strong attachment to her Radiancy yet.

[Guest]

I meant specifically of the Transportation surge. I should have said so. And I am not sure how much she identifies herself as a Radiant. She's confident, sure, but I am not convinced she feels a strong attachment to her Radiancy yet.

 

I understand. However, I must say that, based on this discussion, I found that some surges appear to be more difficult to master then others. Jasnah, for example, studied Soulcasting for the better part of 6 years. She mentions to Shallan how difficult it was to learn and how dangerous is was. She even forbids Shallan to use it until she has time to train with her. Transportation sounds quite difficult as well and as you say, she did not master it just yet.

 

On the other hand, Kal masters Adhesion is something like what, 2 training session? As for Gravitation, it took him another 2-3 weeks to master... By the end of WoR, he was as good as Szeth, who has been practicing for many years. Szeth is right when he says Kal is new at this and it is unfair Kal should be as good with it as he is.

 

We could also mention Shallan who masters Illumination in a few weeks.

 

Jasnah had years to practice and I believe she spent much time doing just that. She is a smart women and the fact that she did not managed to master one of her surge in that amount of time, especially when her peers did just that in a fraction of the time, indicates how uneven those surges are.

 

Bottom line, it looks very easy to be a Windrunner and very hard to be an Elsecaller.

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

I think that probably has to do with the nature of those surges themselves. Gravitation, atmospheric pressure, light, they're all natural forces we're familiar with, that we understand intuitively. Transportation and Transformation are both powers native to the Cognitive Realm. They're alien. They work under different laws of physics than we understand, the laws of an entirely different plane. To learn those two, you have to familiarize yourself with a whole other universe.

[Guest]

I think that probably has to do with the nature of those surges themselves. Gravitation, atmospheric pressure, light, they're all natural forces we're familiar with, that we understand intuitively. Transportation and Transformation are both powers native to the Cognitive Realm. They're alien. They work under different laws of physics than we understand, the laws of an entirely different plane. To learn those two, you have to familiarize yourself with a whole other universe.

 

Precisely. So surges native from the cognitive realm are more difficult to master. Therefore, it is more difficult to become a member of certain orders. So far, Windrunners come up as one of the easy ones.

[Cromptj he/him]

Also, Kaladin might just be naturally very talented. He learned the spear in much less time than usual too so he could just be a quick learner. He and Shallan also had more pressure on them to learn quickly than Jasnah.

[Zizoz he/him]

Shallan didn't actually master Illumination in WoR. She still has to learn how to make sounds, for instance. Also, she apparently had used Surgebinding when she was younger.

Kaladin did learn really quickly.

[Guest]

Also, Kaladin might just be naturally very talented. He learned the spear in much less time than usual too so he could just be a quick learner. He and Shallan also had more pressure on them to learn quickly than Jasnah.

 

If that is the case, then it is a very weak plot twist. Having your main protagonist being so smart and so great he manages to master within a few weeks what should have taken him years is illogical. Especially since he had no one to teach him: he had to figure it out all by himself. Even the world's greatest genius needs time to master his skill. The spear is not such a good example because he did take a few years to master it. Albeit, he learned more quickly than the average guy, but he still took a reasonable period of time to perfect his skill. When Tien was killed, he was not so good with it if I recall properly. It is only after his death he started to train really hard and then he became good.

 

Personally, if mastering Radiant power can be done within weeks without any prior knowledge of what you are trying to achieve, without anybody to teach you, then it is seriously deceiving. I agree Kal had more pressure to learn than Jasnah, but still....

 

 

Shallan didn't actually master Illumination in WoR. She still has to learn how to make sounds, for instance. Also, she apparently had used Surgebinding when she was younger.

Kaladin did learn really quickly.

 

You are right about Shallan. She has not mastered it yet and she has been doing it as a kid. I was unfair when I put her into this. I shall remain on Kal's case then.

[Aether he/him]

I am not sure we are treating Kaladin fairly here. I admit he seems to have learned Gravitation a bit fast, but to me it really seems to be the easiest one to learn. It doesn't take much thought other than keeping your head straight as you shift your gravitational pull. And he did practise it for several weeks by running (flying?) around the chasms. Adhesion, on the other hand, is difficult, and while he understands the basics, he is far from Szeth's level when it comes to its battle application. He even thinks to himself at one point that he wasn't sure how effective it will be in a fight without considerably more training (or something). In his battle against Szeth, he only used Gravitation and his Shard-weapons, and Syl was even doing most of the hard work on the latter one.

 

Jasnah, I agree, has it hard.

 

Anyway, I do not think it is the mastery of their surges which is the catalyst for an eventual change in eye colour. I reiterate that I think it has more to do with finally embracing one's Radiance (after reaching a certain threshold), or some other unknown factor. Either that or it works different for Lighteyes, as some have suggested.

[Tien'sPetLurg she/her]

Just a quick thought on red eyes. Forgive me as I'm new and I am beyond blown away with how smart people here are on this site. I'm way out of my league. Seriously. So far everyone has been kind and tolerated me.  But I was thinking, and it's a simple-minded notion, that perhaps red eyes were semi-reserved for the Parshendi who went into War Form. (if for no other reason than to keep it distinct and simple--not very Sanderson-esque though, right?!) This form change involved the Stormfather and Kal sat out there being "judged" by the Stormfather so that might play into it somehow. I sort of assumed the Parshendi War Form eye color had more to do with the particular spren within the fabriole used...but... that's not necessarily correct.

 

[Pathfinder]

So here is a thought regarding the speed in which Kal learned vs Jasnah and Shallan. Kal's biggest breakthroughs happened while running with bridgefour which was the worse of the worse, and the most damaging. For all of Brandon's magic systems, the user has to be emotionally "broken" in order to use investiture for the magic to fill in the cracks. The way I see it, Jasnah had breaks, but maybe not as frequent or as dramatic as Kal. Regarding Shallan she had multiple and traumatic breaks, but in order to handle them, she forgot them. Setting her back basically. So perhaps it is the extreme nature of Kal's tutelage as it were that accelerated his process. Also, Kal got to see Szeth in action. Duplication is far faster than innovation. Jasnah and Shallan are breaking brand new ground, and trying to learn from books that are at best rumors. Kal gets to SEE Szeth walk on walls, and SEE him fly. That's why in so many sci-fi plots, technology makes huge leaps when they jury rig another cultures advanced technology versus developing it on their own. When you know where you have to go, finding the path is much simpler than wandering aimlessly. 

[Guest]

So here is a thought regarding the speed in which Kal learned vs Jasnah and Shallan. Kal's biggest breakthroughs happened while running with bridgefour which was the worse of the worse, and the most damaging. For all of Brandon's magic systems, the user has to be emotionally "broken" in order to use investiture for the magic to fill in the cracks. The way I see it, Jasnah had breaks, but maybe not as frequent or as dramatic as Kal. Regarding Shallan she had multiple and traumatic breaks, but in order to handle them, she forgot them. Setting her back basically. So perhaps it is the extreme nature of Kal's tutelage as it were that accelerated his process. Also, Kal got to see Szeth in action. Duplication is far faster than innovation. Jasnah and Shallan are breaking brand new ground, and trying to learn from books that are at best rumors. Kal gets to SEE Szeth walk on walls, and SEE him fly. That's why in so many sci-fi plots, technology makes huge leaps when they jury rig another cultures advanced technology versus developing it on their own. When you know where you have to go, finding the path is much simpler than wandering aimlessly. 

 

I still think Kal learned way too quickly. After the shipwreck, Shallan was in a near death situation: she needed fire. She knew before hand about the Transformation surge, she knew the basic workings of it and yet, for all the life of her, she couldn't change that stick into fire..... Kal knew nothing. He did not know about the Radiants or about the surges and yet he miraculously saved everyone's life by conviniently surge binding in WoK. Also, we could add that, after her attempted murder, Jasnah was in a tight spot and it took hers weeks to find her way back and this despite her previous knowledge.

[Chrono she/her]

I still think Kal learned way too quickly. After the shipwreck, Shallan was in a near death situation: she needed fire. She knew before hand about the Transformation surge, she knew the basic workings of it and yet, for all the life of her, she couldn't change that stick into fire..... Kal knew nothing. He did not know about the Radiants or about the surges and yet he miraculously saved everyone's life by conviniently surge binding in WoK. Also, we could add that, after her attempted murder, Jasnah was in a tight spot and it took hers weeks to find her way back and this despite her previous knowledge.

 

Gravitation seems to be a relatively easy surge to master, as Kaladin seemed to get down to an almost instinctive level in a relatively fast manner. However, it still took him at least a month to practice and practice and practice to the point where he could actually move as Szeth did. Adhesion, he still has no idea about. Note also that Kaladin was in a life or death situation almost every single day by the sole virtue of bridge runs, which he ran for something like three months. That culminates in a lot of instinctual practice. Shallan has only been in those situations a handful of times in comparison.

 

Soulcasting is mentioned several times to be a difficult, dangerous thing to do and master. And frankly, we can tell that it is difficult, because you have to be in both Shadesmar and the Physical Realm simultaneously, which requires a massive amount of concentration. Shallan managed to Soulcast the ship into water in a life or death situation, but she was able to concentrate (and she had the fact that land is water in Shadesmar to help her out). When she's exhausted, hungry, cold, confused, and distraught? Not so much.

 

Jasnah was also in Shadesmar for as long as she was because she needed information about the upcoming desolations. The way that Hoid says it, the spren were very hard to work with in order to get that information, and she had to make a tight escape. That escape didn't seem to take her that much time to do, so it seems that she's pretty far along with the Transportation Surge. Either way, Jasnah has a double whammy of confusing and hard to use Radiant Powers.

[Guest]

Which is exactly my point: some surges are easier to master then others. Transformation and Transportation, for example, appear to be very difficult to grasp whereas Gravitation looks rather easy. Honestly, anything one person can master within a month, even if he practices every day which I doubt he was, cannot be this hard. As for Adhesion, he knows the working of it, he is just not able to apply it to combat situations very well.

 

My whole point was that mastering the powers of a Windrunner seems relatively easy when compared to a Lightweaver or an Elsecaller.

[Chrono she/her]

Which is exactly my point: some surges are easier to master then others. Transformation and Transportation, for example, appear to be very difficult to grasp whereas Gravitation looks rather easy. Honestly, anything one person can master within a month, even if he practices every day which I doubt he was, cannot be this hard. As for Adhesion, he knows the working of it, he is just not able to apply it to combat situations very well.

 

My whole point was that mastering the powers of a Windrunner seems relatively easy when compared to a Lightweaver or an Elsecaller.

 

Ah, I apologize for misinterpreting you then. 

 

As a note, this is why I said that Elsecallers weren't nearly as powerful as people think they are. Soulcasting is hard enough with a stationary object, but with a moving object trying to attack you? That's near impossible! Elsecalling is also stating to be imprecise, though a helpful method of getting around.