Question About Compounding! (minor spoilers for Mistborn 2nd era)

[Pathfinder]

7 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If one had F-Pewter as well as A-Pewter they could store all of those different attributes. But of course that's Compounding.  But storing an attribute one receives from A-Pewter into anything other than a Pewtermind doesn't work Realmatically. The power isn't compatible. I agree that one would be able to store more F-Gold health while burning A-Pewter, possibly much more, but the pewter healing isn't the same as F-Gold healing based on the source of the health.  A Thug healing is a purely Physical Realm thing. That means it must work only through the body's processes.  Faster than an unenhanced human but one isn't regrowing limbs or surviving disemboweling. They can even die of bloodloss if untreated.  F-Gold healing comes from the Spiritual Realm and so from the outside it looks like its accelerating the body's natural processes what it's actually doing is resetting the body back to its Spiritual blueprint. 

I guess, but for myself, if that is the case, then it brings me back to the question I posed earlier. Why does Wayne when healing grow scabs, and require the giant back sized scab sheet to be ripped off before he can finish healing? My understanding of cosmeric healing is that the spiritual is used as a blue print, with the cognitive acting as architectural notes on subsequent remodels. But in order to return the actual structure to the blueprint, you still need to physically fix it. Which sounds an awful lot like what pewter does to me too. (side note, that is the first time i came up with that metaphor. I am actually kind of proud of that, blue print, and architectural notes on remodels lol)

Edited February 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why does Wayne when healing grow scabs, and require the giant back sized scab sheet to be ripped off before he can finish healing?

In my opinion the spiritual ideal of healing involves NOT LOOSING BLOOD and that consideration is more important or higher priority then HAVING ALL SKIN.  You can live without skin in certain places.  As such when he taps healing his body naturally adopts the higher priority of NOT LOOSING BLOOD before HAVING ALL SKIN.

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But in order to return the actual structure to the blueprint, you still need to physically fix it. Which sounds an awful lot like what pewter does to me too

Pewter strengthens you body's natural repair system.  Taping gold summons magic repairmen.

[Pathfinder]

34 minutes ago, Karger said:

In my opinion the spiritual ideal of healing involves NOT LOOSING BLOOD and that consideration is more important or higher priority then HAVING ALL SKIN.  You can live without skin in certain places.  As such when he taps healing his body naturally adopts the higher priority of NOT LOOSING BLOOD before HAVING ALL SKIN.

But I guess what I am trying to say is the body's natural systems involve sending a greater supply of white blood cells, platelets and blood to the wounded site to prevent infection, and promote coagulation to seal the wound and allow new skin to grow. What happened to Wayne to me is literally what the normal human body does, just accelerated. Which would fall in line with the concept of storing "health", thereby making you more susceptible to illness (weakening your immune system), and then tapping a large amount of heath in a moment (strengthening your immune system), resulting in a speedy healing. 

To take this further, to me the same applies with Tin. When burning Tin in allomancy, all your senses are augmented at once, to a certain level, that can only be increased to a plateau at flaring. Touch, taste, smell, sight, and etc. All at once. Conversely feruchemy requires each sense to be stored in a separate metal mind. One metal mind for sight. Another for touch. Another for smell. Pewter covers a bunch of feruchemical abilties that require separate metal minds and in some cases separate metals. Just to me, again the only difference is the plateau. 

Quote

Pewter strengthens you body's natural repair system.  Taping gold summons magic repairmen.

As I said earlier, if that is the case, then why does aluminum prevent pewter healing? The body's natural repair system involves sending white blood cells, platelets, and red blood cells to the wounded site. If the aluminum bullet is localized (which it is, confirmed via WoB), and pewter works differently from gold, by only strengthening the body's natural repair system, then the cells (white, platelet, and red) should all still be able to be produced in greater numbers from other parts of the body, being flooded to the wound, and heal. Aluminum negates investiture. Not natural bodily functions. 

 

 

I will put a separate TLDR version of this

If Pewter and Gold a functionally at their core different in how they take care of the body, then I think the scene with Wayne, and how the WoB mentions Aluminum disagrees with this. I think pewter and gold both function the same way that all cosmeric healing functions. To me the only difference between pewter and gold, is gold you can tap as much as you have stored to heal as fast and as extensively as you want. While pewter plateaus, and you need to maintain bodily functions long enough for that healing to overcome the injury. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As I said earlier, if that is the case, then why does aluminum prevent pewter healing?

With pewter the repairmen that are already there get a major power boost.  However that power boost does not work around aluminum.

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Karger said:

With pewter the repairmen that are already there get a major power boost.  However that power boost does not work around aluminum.

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying. The way the human body works normally, is when the body is injured, production of cells are ramped up. Blood flow to the wounded area is increased. There are many locations in the human body that produce cells and they increase in blood flow to the wounded area is what gets them there. So if the aluminum is preventing the boost from a specific area (lets say a gunshot wound to the leg), then the rest of the person's body is still producing the increased amount of cells, and sending those cells to the leg to heal it. That is the human body's natural functions. It's an entire body effort. Its not like if you get injured in your leg, there is only specific cells to help heal your leg, and are only produced at the leg. There are specializations for cells, but for external injuries there is a very clear function that the entire body works together to maintain. So if all pewter did was increase the body's natural systems, then the other parts of the body are still creating much greater numbers of cells, and those cells are still getting sent to the target location. 

It is kind of like saying you are cutting off electricity to a construction site, when the contractors use hand tools to build, and there is still an increased number of workers being sent to the site. Then saying the site cannot be built because the electricity was cut off so power tools cannot be used. You still have an army of workers with hand tools that should still be able to build that building in record time because so many more were sent to the spot. 

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It is kind of like saying you are cutting off electricity to a construction site, when the contractors use hand tools to build, and there is still an increased number of workers being sent to the site. Then saying the site cannot be built because the electricity was cut off so power tools cannot be used. You still have an army of workers with hand tools that should still be able to build that building in record time because so many more were sent to the spot. 

When you tap gold you are sending more construction workers to the site of construction.  If that site is aluminum those workers can't go there.  If you burn pewter you are making existing construction workers stronger but at the same time they don't work well once they get to the leg.  I do think that a thug will do better then a bloodmaker when getting shot with aluminum because their "support team" will be doing better.

[Pathfinder]

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

When you tap gold you are sending more construction workers to the site of construction.  If that site is aluminum those workers can't go there.  If you burn pewter you are making existing construction workers stronger but at the same time they don't work well once they get to the leg.  I do think that a thug will do better then a bloodmaker when getting shot with aluminum because their "support team" will be doing better.

But I guess that is where our disconnect lies. The WoB I posted earlier in the thread said that both pewter and gold healing are stopped the same way by an aluminum bullet. As in the healing stops. The pewter is only less effected at first because of pewter's ability to help someone "tank" damage, and not drop immediately. But the healing is still prevented in both cases. 

That's why I disagree with saying f-gold is healing magically/spiritually or however else anyone would like to call it, while pewter only increases the body's natural processes. if that was the case, then the pewter thug should still be able to "heal" whereas the WoB says he can't. We also see Wayne's healing work like the human body's natural processes. Blood and platelets coagulate, sealing the wound, and then the dead flesh/scab has to slough off for new healthy skin to finish the healing process. So for me, if f-gold is just healing magically/spiritually and having nothing to due with the body's natural healing process (as some have put forward to show it is different than pewter), then that scene to me runs counter to that. 

Which is what led me to my own conclusion, is that they both work on cosmeric healing principles. They both look to the blueprint of the spiritual ideal, filtered through the cognitive sense of self. They both use investiture (pewter via burning, gold via tapping) to heal. This manifests through the body's natural occurrences. Aluminum cuts off this healing in both of them the exact same way as the WoB says. The only difference functionally to me between pewter and gold healing, is you can only flare pewter so far, so your healing will take longer. With gold you can choose how fast you want to heal. There is a scene I need to pull up, where Wayne even says he taps healing far less so as not to waste it, and his wounds heal a little faster than they should normally, but he still needs to bandage them. Which sounds a whole lot like pewter to me. 

Vin heals faster than she should. It says so in the books. And it is not just her being more durable so she can walk around while she heals normally. She comments about it to herself. Wax does the same in the second trilogy. 

I think we are getting bogged down with wording. We are also told Tin enhances all the senses, but I think we all accept Tin works the same for allomancy as it does for feruchemy. Just with feruchemy you can pick which sense you increase, and to what degree, while with allomancy it is all of them and it plateaus. Just like pewter to me. 

 

here is the WoB again for reference. Both the bloodmaker and thug would be unable to heal around the aluminum till it is removed. 

 

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Edited February 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

But you cannot regrow limbs or internal organs or the like with pewter.

[Pathfinder]

30 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

But you cannot regrow limbs or internal organs or the like with pewter.

I don't think we know whether that is true or not. We never saw anyone perform it on screen with pewter, but I also don't think it was ever explicitly stated as not possible. My assumption is someone would have to be burning pewter non-stop for a long time depending on the limb (finger versus arm), and would definitely depend on the organ (going to need some medical life support for heart, kidneys, etc)

Edited February 18, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Tglassy]

On 2/18/2020 at 3:59 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

If one had F-Pewter as well as A-Pewter they could store all of those different attributes. But of course that's Compounding.  But storing an attribute one receives from A-Pewter into anything other than a Pewtermind doesn't work Realmatically. The power isn't compatible. I agree that one would be able to store more F-Gold health while burning A-Pewter, possibly much more, but the pewter healing isn't the same as F-Gold healing based on the source of the health.  A Thug healing is a purely Physical Realm thing. That means it must work only through the body's processes.  Faster than an unenhanced human but one isn't regrowing limbs or surviving disemboweling. They can even die of bloodloss if untreated.  F-Gold healing comes from the Spiritual Realm and so from the outside it looks like its accelerating the body's natural processes what it's actually doing is resetting the body back to its Spiritual blueprint. 

F Pewter is only strength, it wouldn't store the extra balance and speed and all that.  There's also no reason, in any realm, why you couldn't store extra speed in a steel mind, or what have you.  Feruchemy works by draining your attribute, then allowing you to tap it later.  If you have more of that attribute to drain, then you can drain more of it.  It's like being a muscular person would make one a more powerful Pewter Ferring, because you have more muscle to drain.  If your muscles were then doubled by Allomantic pewter while you drained, there's no logical reason why you wouldn't also store that strength, but there's no indication you would also store healing and/or dexterity or speed.  Steel stores speed, not Pewter.  

[+robardin he/him]

On 2/18/2020 at 2:30 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

But you cannot regrow limbs or internal organs or the like with pewter.

That's true... Allomantic pewter accelerates one's physical healing in a similar way as it increases one's stamina, agility, and strength. So recovering from very serious injuries, including gut slashes or broken bones at the hands of an Inquisitor, only takes Vin a week or two, with access to pewter. You recover to the top of your ability, and at a faster rate.

But it's not like you become Wolverine, who has a regeneration factor, not just a healing factor. No amount of pewter flaring would cause Ham to regrow a severed arm. Though I wonder if reattachment surgery would work a lot better for a Pewterarm, in terms of fully or maximally recovering use of a severed limb that was sewn back on quickly enough.

Edited March 2, 2020 by robardin

[+robardin he/him]

On 2/18/2020 at 3:01 PM, Pathfinder said:

I don't think we know whether that is true or not. We never saw anyone perform it on screen with pewter, but I also don't think it was ever explicitly stated as not possible. My assumption is someone would have to be burning pewter non-stop for a long time depending on the limb (finger versus arm), and would definitely depend on the organ (going to need some medical life support for heart, kidneys, etc)

Magical Cosmere "Healing" a la F-gold, the Surge of Progression, or (presumably) SuperBreath healing from a Returned or the appropriate Aon in Elantris, are a kind of syncing up of the Physical body based on the Spiritual and Cognitive ideal templates held by the person.

That's not what pewter is described and see as doing, in terms of healing. It's consistently seen and shown to be an increase in the body's natural function, but to "top of human ability" and with an accelerated healing factor. So Vin, with a pewter flare, can punch like Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (the guy who plays The Mountain on Game of Thrones), or walk a tightrope like Philippe Petit, and so on. And she can recover from a wound that would be recoverable from in time, in a shorter amount of time.

So she could recover from multiple broken bones and a gut slash from an Inquisitor after a week or two of resting with pewter, and Elend could survive and then recover from a gut slash with pewter, but Shan Elariel and Tarson still died from lethal wounds that pewter could not overcome (two stabs through the heart and a bullet through the brain, respectively), but either Stormlight or tapping a large enough goldmind would have done.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Magical Cosmere "Healing" a la F-gold, the Surge of Progression, or (presumably) SuperBreath healing from a Returned or the appropriate Aon in Elantris, are a kind of syncing up of the Physical body based on the Spiritual and Cognitive ideal templates held by the person.

That's not what pewter is described and see as doing, in terms of healing. It's consistently seen and shown to be an increase in the body's natural function, but to "top of human ability" and with an accelerated healing factor. So Vin, with a pewter flare, can punch like Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson (the guy who plays The Mountain on Game of Thrones), or walk a tightrope like Philippe Petit, and so on. And she can recover from a wound that would be recoverable from in time, in a shorter amount of time.

So she could recover from multiple broken bones and a gut slash from an Inquisitor after a week or two of resting with pewter, and Elend could survive and then recover from a gut slash with pewter, but Shan Elariel and Tarson still died from lethal wounds that pewter could not overcome (two stabs through the heart and a bullet through the brain, respectively), but either Stormlight or tapping a large enough goldmind would have done.

So the TLDR version is I disagree. For the reasons i disagree I mentioned in the prior pages of this post, but I will also copy paste them below for ease of reference:

 

I think we both know and understand the whole thing about how cosmeric healing is returning the body to the spiritual ideal filtered through the cognitive self. As to the actual physical process, I think A-pewter and F-gold function the same exact way. just one has more "power" than the other. As in pewter plateaus while gold healing does not so long as you have enough to tap. The reason I say this in regards to your post, is because of Wayne when they get bombed by the butler. Using your statement:

 

"the magic being the thing that actually knit wounds, replaced blood, or repaired damage by magically creating the required matter"

 

Then I believe Wayne's healing as it is described in that scene should not work as it did. His wounds should have just closed. But what actually happens is:

 

"The man's back was crusted with blood and burned skin, but it had been lifted and raised as scabs, new skin forming underneath"

"So he grabbed the burned layer at Wayne's shoulder and - with a jerk - ripped the skin off his back. it came free in almost a single complete sheet. Wayne grunted. New skin had formed underneath, pink and fresh, but it couldn't finish healing properly until the old stiff, burned layer had been removed. 

 

So Wayne's body was healing as the human body normally does. Blood clots. Scab is formed. New skin grows underneath, and the old skin sloughs off. Just it was extra accelerated.

Now further to this, if pewter was only increasing the body's immune system to assist in the speed of recovery, then when Brandon was asked regarding healing from an aluminum bullet, then for myself, A-pewter should still be able to heal while f-gold should not. As the body itself is just doing its natural job better. But the WoB indicated both A-pewter and F-gold would cease to heal where the aluminum bullet is present. Now Brandon does comment that a-pewter would not be too affected by the aluminum bullet, but I take that to mean because of their increased durability to allow them to shrug off the damage temporarily till the bullet is removed. But they are still unable to heal it, which he confirms later in the WoB, just like a bloodmaker. 

 

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

 

 

to put it this way. if it prevents the magical strengthening in a localized area, then shouldn't it still be healed? If the body's immune and natural systems are augmented, then the rest of the body is still producing the extra cells, and functions that would travel to the location to heal it. So the increased production would still exist, and should still function despite the localized area lacking. So I would think if that was the case, the wound would still heal regardless, yet according to Brandon, it would not. At least that is how I reason it. 

 

 

I guess, but for myself, if that is the case, then it brings me back to the question I posed earlier. Why does Wayne when healing grow scabs, and require the giant back sized scab sheet to be ripped off before he can finish healing? My understanding of cosmeric healing is that the spiritual is used as a blue print, with the cognitive acting as architectural notes on subsequent remodels. But in order to return the actual structure to the blueprint, you still need to physically fix it. Which sounds an awful lot like what pewter does to me too. (side note, that is the first time i came up with that metaphor. I am actually kind of proud of that, blue print, and architectural notes on remodels lol)

 

 

 

But I guess what I am trying to say is the body's natural systems involve sending a greater supply of white blood cells, platelets and blood to the wounded site to prevent infection, and promote coagulation to seal the wound and allow new skin to grow. What happened to Wayne to me is literally what the normal human body does, just accelerated. Which would fall in line with the concept of storing "health", thereby making you more susceptible to illness (weakening your immune system), and then tapping a large amount of heath in a moment (strengthening your immune system), resulting in a speedy healing. 

To take this further, to me the same applies with Tin. When burning Tin in allomancy, all your senses are augmented at once, to a certain level, that can only be increased to a plateau at flaring. Touch, taste, smell, sight, and etc. All at once. Conversely feruchemy requires each sense to be stored in a separate metal mind. One metal mind for sight. Another for touch. Another for smell. Pewter covers a bunch of feruchemical abilties that require separate metal minds and in some cases separate metals. Just to me, again the only difference is the plateau. 

  Quote

Pewter strengthens you body's natural repair system.  Taping gold summons magic repairmen.

As I said earlier, if that is the case, then why does aluminum prevent pewter healing? The body's natural repair system involves sending white blood cells, platelets, and red blood cells to the wounded site. If the aluminum bullet is localized (which it is, confirmed via WoB), and pewter works differently from gold, by only strengthening the body's natural repair system, then the cells (white, platelet, and red) should all still be able to be produced in greater numbers from other parts of the body, being flooded to the wound, and heal. Aluminum negates investiture. Not natural bodily functions. 

 

 

With pewter the repairmen that are already there get a major power boost.  However that power boost does not work around aluminum.

I may be misunderstanding what you are saying. The way the human body works normally, is when the body is injured, production of cells are ramped up. Blood flow to the wounded area is increased. There are many locations in the human body that produce cells and they increase in blood flow to the wounded area is what gets them there. So if the aluminum is preventing the boost from a specific area (lets say a gunshot wound to the leg), then the rest of the person's body is still producing the increased amount of cells, and sending those cells to the leg to heal it. That is the human body's natural functions. It's an entire body effort. Its not like if you get injured in your leg, there is only specific cells to help heal your leg, and are only produced at the leg. There are specializations for cells, but for external injuries there is a very clear function that the entire body works together to maintain. So if all pewter did was increase the body's natural systems, then the other parts of the body are still creating much greater numbers of cells, and those cells are still getting sent to the target location. 

It is kind of like saying you are cutting off electricity to a construction site, when the contractors use hand tools to build, and there is still an increased number of workers being sent to the site. Then saying the site cannot be built because the electricity was cut off so power tools cannot be used. You still have an army of workers with hand tools that should still be able to build that building in record time because so many more were sent to the spot. 

 

But I guess that is where our disconnect lies. The WoB I posted earlier in the thread said that both pewter and gold healing are stopped the same way by an aluminum bullet. As in the healing stops. The pewter is only less effected at first because of pewter's ability to help someone "tank" damage, and not drop immediately. But the healing is still prevented in both cases. 

That's why I disagree with saying f-gold is healing magically/spiritually or however else anyone would like to call it, while pewter only increases the body's natural processes. if that was the case, then the pewter thug should still be able to "heal" whereas the WoB says he can't. We also see Wayne's healing work like the human body's natural processes. Blood and platelets coagulate, sealing the wound, and then the dead flesh/scab has to slough off for new healthy skin to finish the healing process. So for me, if f-gold is just healing magically/spiritually and having nothing to due with the body's natural healing process (as some have put forward to show it is different than pewter), then that scene to me runs counter to that. 

Which is what led me to my own conclusion, is that they both work on cosmeric healing principles. They both look to the blueprint of the spiritual ideal, filtered through the cognitive sense of self. They both use investiture (pewter via burning, gold via tapping) to heal. This manifests through the body's natural occurrences. Aluminum cuts off this healing in both of them the exact same way as the WoB says. The only difference functionally to me between pewter and gold healing, is you can only flare pewter so far, so your healing will take longer. With gold you can choose how fast you want to heal. There is a scene I need to pull up, where Wayne even says he taps healing far less so as not to waste it, and his wounds heal a little faster than they should normally, but he still needs to bandage them. Which sounds a whole lot like pewter to me. 

Vin heals faster than she should. It says so in the books. And it is not just her being more durable so she can walk around while she heals normally. She comments about it to herself. Wax does the same in the second trilogy. 

I think we are getting bogged down with wording. We are also told Tin enhances all the senses, but I think we all accept Tin works the same for allomancy as it does for feruchemy. Just with feruchemy you can pick which sense you increase, and to what degree, while with allomancy it is all of them and it plateaus. Just like pewter to me. 

[+robardin he/him]

Yes, it makes sense that A-pewter healing "is stopped" by aluminum in a similar way as F-gold healing is, inasmuch as aluminum is acting as a disruptor for the flow of Investiture to that physical area. That doesn't mean that the two would be producing the same result, as they operate on different mechanics (which it seems you agree with).

Vin "heals faster" than she should, yes. But the key word there is "healing". "Regeneration" of a limb is not healing, since nobody regrows missing body parts naturally.

You are right in that we have not seen any definitive action or scene in any Mistborn book that would confirm or absolutely refute the idea of "A-pewter regeneration", so there's no point in arguing about it except to say, that's how I think it "should" work (only Brandon's word here would be canon, and even then, he could change his mind up until the time he put it in a published work).

There is certainly room for a middle ground, though, for the effect of A-pewter as I conceive of it. For example, per my conception, if you gouged out a Pewterarm's eyes they'd be blind with no way to recover, unless they could possibly re-insert their eyeballs soon enough that some kind of "healing" could take place. But what about someone getting their eyes burned with a hot iron? I'd accept that the eyes could "heal" from the burning with A-pewter, in a way that would go beyond the ordinary ability of a person to heal from it.

[Karger he/him]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So if the aluminum is preventing the boost from a specific area (lets say a gunshot wound to the leg), then the rest of the person's body is still producing the increased amount of cells, and sending those cells to the leg to heal it.

Yes but the specific areas around that wound are not working.  

[Pathfinder]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

Yes, it makes sense that A-pewter healing "is stopped" by aluminum in a similar way as F-gold healing is, inasmuch as aluminum is acting as a disruptor for the flow of Investiture to that physical area. That doesn't mean that the two would be producing the same result, as they operate on different mechanics (which it seems you agree with).

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, I believe we disagree on this. I believe both pewter and gold operate on cosmeric healing. Returning the body to the blueprint of the spiritual filtered through the cognitive. The only functional difference I believe there is between pewter and gold is that pewter has a speed cap. That is why I believe if someone burned enough pewter long enough, I think limbs and body parts could be regrown. 

3 hours ago, robardin said:

Vin "heals faster" than she should, yes. But the key word there is "healing". "Regeneration" of a limb is not healing, since nobody regrows missing body parts naturally.

You are right in that we have not seen any definitive action or scene in any Mistborn book that would confirm or absolutely refute the idea of "A-pewter regeneration", so there's no point in arguing about it except to say, that's how I think it "should" work (only Brandon's word here would be canon, and even then, he could change his mind up until the time he put it in a published work).

There is certainly room for a middle ground, though, for the effect of A-pewter as I conceive of it. For example, per my conception, if you gouged out a Pewterarm's eyes they'd be blind with no way to recover, unless they could possibly re-insert their eyeballs soon enough that some kind of "healing" could take place. But what about someone getting their eyes burned with a hot iron? I'd accept that the eyes could "heal" from the burning with A-pewter, in a way that would go beyond the ordinary ability of a person to heal from it.

The rest I believe I already covered in the numerous posts I copy pasted as to why I believe the way I do. I guess at the end agree to disagree because I said everything I would say already. Assuming you already read it, I can't really see saying anything further. 

I respect your beliefs regarding pewter. Just my own differ. i wish you luck with your theory!

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Yes but the specific areas around that wound are not working.  

We already went back and forth about this at length. My intention was not to start it up again .Robardin tagged me mentioning stuff I already replied to throughout the thread. So I just copy pasted my answer for his or her reference. But it was not my intention to continue arguing (not fighting, but a form of discourse) with you when we already said our views at length. I don't feel there is anything further I could say that wouldn't just be repeating what I already said. 

[cometaryorbit]

Allomantic pewter enhancement is really pretty small (a couple times normal strength, not dozens), so I don't think it would lead to regrowing limbs and such even if it works by the same principle as feruchemical gold - that involves burning through days or weeks of storage in seconds or minutes.

As for a speed cap being the limit, though - Vin fails to burn out the unconsciousness drug in Yomen's storage cavern (HOA) using Duralumin-Pewter. I'd think gold feruchemy could probably do that, and with Duralumin involved, speed probably isn't the limiting factor in this case. Now maybe Vin just didn't have enough pewter left... but it might genuinely be a more limited form of healing.

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Allomantic pewter enhancement is really pretty small (a couple times normal strength, not dozens), so I don't think it would lead to regrowing limbs and such even if it works by the same principle as feruchemical gold - that involves burning through days or weeks of storage in seconds or minutes.

As for a speed cap being the limit, though - Vin fails to burn out the unconsciousness drug in Yomen's storage cavern (HOA) using Duralumin-Pewter. I'd think gold feruchemy could probably do that, and with Duralumin involved, speed probably isn't the limiting factor in this case. Now maybe Vin just didn't have enough pewter left... but it might genuinely be a more limited form of healing.

The reason for that was the wine was drugged with the express purpose of knocking out an allomancer. So the idea was it was strong enough to even drug someone burning pewter. The duralumin was meant to over power it, but duralumin only burns what you have all at once in a powerful flare. Vin was low on metals. She just didn't have enough pewter at the time. 

[Dancer]

Might I add to this that when Spook was burnt to near death Sazed noted that if he were a Pewter arm he would have heal right up in a matter of days/week if he had kept burning. I don't know about you but recovering completely from wounds like that sound exactly like Wayne recovering from his burns. I agree with @Pathfinder that from what we have seen Pewter seems to work like F-gold just that It is doing so much more then just healing. You would have to be A-compounding or mist powered to get the same healing speed. But at that point your muscles and bones would be so durable that nothing but a mountain falling on you or a shardblade would damage you.     

[cometaryorbit]

17 hours ago, Dancer said:

Might I add to this that when Spook was burnt to near death Sazed noted that if he were a Pewter arm he would have heal right up in a matter of days/week if he had kept burning. I don't know about you but recovering completely from wounds like that sound exactly like Wayne recovering from his burns.

Yeah Pewter can clearly let you recover from things not just quicker, but outright better, (not just same final result happening faster), than normal human healing. Pewter burners can recover from wounds that would be outright fatal otherwise (see Elend at the end of WOA) - but not wounds that are quickly fatal; a cut throat can't be fixed. (Even though that is not actually "more" damage than Elend's gut wound.)

The limit is whether the Allomancer dies before the fixed rate of Pewter healing can fix the wound that would kill them, IMO.

Quote

I agree with @Pathfinder that from what we have seen Pewter seems to work like F-gold just that It is doing so much more then just healing. You would have to be A-compounding or mist powered to get the same healing speed. But at that point your muscles and bones would be so durable that nothing but a mountain falling on you or a shardblade would damage you.     

Yeah. As a general rule, Allomancy has a fixed "upper limit" on rate, Feruchemy doesn't. A Pewter Feruchemist can (briefly) attain far greater strength than a Thug or even a Lerasium Mistborn flaring Pewter, a Steel Feruchemist can reach ridiculous speeds, etc.

I'm not sure the ability to re-grow limbs (in Gold Feruchemy) is particularly informative as to the underlying mechanism (and whether it's different from Pewter Allomancy). It might just be a matter of the healing rate being fast enough to act before scarring and similar "normal" healing processes close off the blood vessels, etc.

Why humans can't re-grow limbs in the real world (while some simpler animals can re-grow equivalent major body parts, starfish for example) is IIRC not 100% understood, though it likely has to do with preventing cancers etc. from "unlimited" cell growth. And while no human can re-grow an entire limb, smaller parts (such as fingertips) can be regenerated by some people, but not others. So there is not a bright line between "normal human healing" and "regeneration". There is active research into treatments to improve wound healing by 'unlocking' these limited 'regenerative' capabilities at least some humans have...

[Tglassy]

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2020 at 8:12 PM, cometaryorbit said:

 

Why humans can't re-grow limbs in the real world (while some simpler animals can re-grow equivalent major body parts, starfish for example) is IIRC not 100% understood, though it likely has to do with preventing cancers etc. from "unlimited" cell growth. And while no human can re-grow an entire limb, smaller parts (such as fingertips) can be regenerated by some people, but not others. So there is not a bright line between "normal human healing" and "regeneration". There is active research into treatments to improve wound healing by 'unlocking' these limited 'regenerative' capabilities at least some humans have...

And now I'm envisioning a post apocalyptic book where humans discovered how to unlock their regenerative capabilities and it turned us all into cancerous monsters.