Windrunner Oaths(based on ethical leadership theory the origins of which some trace to Aristotle)

[Karger he/him]

Welcome all.  It is looking like this will be the last of this particular series of theories.  I may do one more about my underlying pattern oath theory but for the oaths themselves this will be it. 

For those of you who don't know I believe that Radiant Oaths (with the exception of Lightweavers) follow a pattern.  The first ideal is constant, the second is about service, the third is about fairness, the fourth is about trust and the fifth is about the ultimate goal.  This belief fuels all of my oath theories. 

Windrunners are the order we know most about.  This is thanks to Kaladin and Syl who thankfully are not viewed under super unreliable narrators, do not have the soul of a dead god fused to them, did not go and visit the Nightwatcher and get a really weird boon, did not die and come back from the dead and spend time talking about advancement, leadership and the nature of the bond.  We love you both.  Also thank you Teft and the Lopen you are also amazing.  From them, Words of Radiance and the gemstone archive we know that Windrunners manipulate the surges of gravitation and adhesion, have a large and very powerful number of squires, serve as scouts and for lack of a better term "middle management" for the radiants during wartime, and include those who desire to lead.  We also know their first three oaths, the third by two completely different wordings. 

The first ideal for Windrunners is of course the same as for other orders "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."  This is always the first ideal.  In terms of ethical leadership it ties in nicely with an ethical leader's "duty to respect others."  As Beauchamp and Bowie pointed out, “Persons must be treated as having their own autonomously established goals and must never be treated purely as the means to another’s personal goals.”  Similarly a Radiant should respect life, and be willing to allow someone else's goal to be more important then their own.  In a journey it is sometimes important to yield to someone else and let them cut ahead.

As interesting and important as this concept is we have several more ideals to cover.  What I can the ideal of service.  This fits well here.  Kaladin's swearing of the second oath is perhaps the best scene in Way of Kings it certainly ranks in my top five. "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves!" In it he acknowledges his responsibility.  Ethical leaders serve others.  Not just people who they are directly assigned to.  Not just people who have an important role in their own lives.  In management this is called the service principle.  "In the workplace, altruistic service behavior can be observed in activities such as mentoring, empowerment behaviors, team building..." Does this sound like anything we remember?  Additionally in modern times this is tied to beneficence.  "The leader’s ethical responsibility to serve others is very similar to the ethical principle in health care of beneficence."  This one also seems to ring a bell for me. 

Moving on.  The final oath we here Kaladin swear is the third ideal.  The third ideal is the ideal I can fairness.  Fairness can be different things for different people.  To Kaladin this ideal is about seeing past his prejudice to the value of each human being and being willing to protect them all.  "I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right."  For Teft fairness means being willing to take proper care of himself physically and spiritually rather then damaging himself for what he feels he did wrongly in the past.  For leaders who follow ethical leadership theory this is often called justice or reciprocity but fairness is more common.   Rawls (1971) stated that a concern with issues of fairness is necessary for all people who are cooperating together to promote their common interests.

So far we have had a information that tells us where to go when it comes to our oaths.  However we do not yet know the fourth oath.  What we do know is that in Oathbringer Kaladin was unable to say it, and that a Windrunner in the gemstone archive thought that it meant in some ways not helping people.  Speculation on this topic is nearly endless it has its own thread that has been active since 2017 and it may have been that thread that inspired me to start my pattern of oaths theory in the first place.  I wondered about setting priorities, something that a Windrunner has to find a way to do.  Something Kaladin really can't do I thought about other works of Brandon.  Then it hit me.  White Sand Prose.  White Sand Prose spoilers.

Spoiler

In the prose Baon gives Khriss her last lesson in leadership.  Khriss can't do somthing herself but all she has are two professors who have no idea how to gather information Baon tells her this.  “Doesn’t matter,” Baon said with a shake of his head. “They’re all you have. Delegation is one of the most difficult parts of leadership, duchess. The simple fact is, most people aren’t going to be as competent as you would like. Some of them will be complete idiots. Your job is to find a place for them to be productive, even if just a little bit. A little bit, plus what you’re doing, will always be more than you working by yourself.”

For those of you who have not read it the message in brief is that you sometimes have to be productive in one place and let other less competent people do the work you could do better somewhere else.  Not everyone can be Kaladin but he still needs to trust them to do their jobs while he does his.  He can't be in two places at once.  Many people call this part of a leader's job to be honest.  Dala Costa (1998) made a point in the Ethical Imperative book. "Do not promise what you can't deliver, do not misrepresent, do not hide behind spin-doctored evasions, do not suppress obligations."  To most this makes sense.  However to a Windrunner who trains almost exclusively in service of others this is counter-intuitive.  How, wonders our third ideal windrunner from the gemstone archive, can I serve and help others if I also expect them to protect themselves and aid me in my mission?  I am supposed to save lives how can I risk them?  How can I help Dalinar if I expect him to solve this one on his own or with the help of those I do not know?  I think this ties into the first oath.  People have their own goals.  You can expect them to stay out of the way while you do all the work even if you could do all the work which you can't.  From this I expect the four oath to be "I will trust others to do those tasks that I cannot and to protect those that I can't."  This also ties in a bit with oath five

If my pattern oath theory is correct then the final oath should deal with the ultimate goal of a Windrunner.  Windrunners are leaders so their responsibility should be the same as a leader's.  That responsibility is to create a community(and yes I am aware that this is cliched to hell but it is also in ethical leadership theory).  A leader is by definition part of a group endeavor.  Whatever that endeavor that group to be effective must become more then just the sum of its parts.  It has to be more then each individual doing their job.  A leader has to understand and aid in the common concerns that the group faces and come up with an approach where everyone is willing to work together to solve them(I can think of a certain problem that requires an empathic leader to do this).  Kaladin has already built one community but that is not enough.  If he really want to lead then he is going to have to be prepared to expand his community and build new ones wherever he goes.  As such I think a Windrunner's final ideal is "I will look for cause that everyone has a part in and I will help them complete their role in it so that they may do it well."

My pattern of oaths theory can be found here.

Spoiler

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Karger

[Honorless he/him]

Delegation, that's actually a good argument for the Fourth Ideal

[Karger he/him]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

Delegation, that's actually a good argument for the Fourth Ideal

Thank you!

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Thank you!

Not sure if you watched Brandon's three live streams, but I think it was either the second or the third (I am leaning towards the third), where he mentions an economic principle (forgot the name), that describes what you were referring to in delegation. That if you are really good at making straw hats, and good at making straw baskets, while another person is poor at making straw hats, and ok at making straw baskets, it still numerically comes out to be more beneficial for you to focus on making straw hats and the other person focus at making straw baskets, than you doing both because you are still better at both than the other person. He mentions it was one of his favorite principles in economics. So maybe that was in the back of his mind at the time?

[Karger he/him]

35 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That if you are really good at making straw hats, and good at making straw baskets, while another person is poor at making straw hats, and ok at making straw baskets

This is called absolute advantage.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That if you are really good at making straw hats, and good at making straw baskets, while another person is poor at making straw hats, and ok at making straw baskets, it still numerically comes out to be more beneficial for you to focus on making straw hats and the other person focus at making straw baskets, than you doing both because you are still better at both than the other person

This is called comparative advantage.

39 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So maybe that was in the back of his mind at the time?

It is a concept he clearly understands.

[Pathfinder]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is called absolute advantage.

This is called comparative advantage.

It is a concept he clearly understands.

So just in case for clarity, the reason why I mentioned it, is because it could support your theory. That as you said, it is a concept he clearly understands, and has thought about. Didn't want you to think I was disagreeing with you, or mentioning it to say you were using incorrect terminology or anything. 

[Karger he/him]

28 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So just in case for clarity, the reason why I mentioned it, is because it could support your theory. That as you said, it is a concept he clearly understands, and has thought about. Didn't want you to think I was disagreeing with you, or mentioning it to say you were using incorrect terminology or anything. 

No I was explaining the terminology.  Contrary to our all evidence there exists no reason why we always must disagree with each other.  It was also a concept in the back of my mind when making this theory.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

I've really enjoyed reading these posts @Karger, good job! Just in general I've really agreed with most of the stuff you've said. We could debate the specific wording and the validity of the constant, service, fairness, etc. but I think the most important thing is you have captured the feel of each order. With almost all of them they've just felt right.

[Karger he/him]

4 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I've really enjoyed reading these posts @Karger, good job! Just in general I've really agreed with most of the stuff you've said. We could debate the specific wording and the validity of the constant, service, fairness, etc. but I think the most important thing is you have captured the feel of each order. With almost all of them they've just felt right.

Thanks!  I am willing to hear about changes to wording even though it is really not my highest priority since it is quite variable.  If you have any other kind of suggestions let me know as well.  I am far from 100% on these theories and I would appreciate the help.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Thanks!  I am willing to hear about changes to wording even though it is really not my highest priority since it is quite variable.  If you have any other kind of suggestions let me know as well.  I am far from 100% on these theories and I would appreciate the help.

I've already shared by biggest one. That I believe bondsmiths would have much more active oaths. As far as the patterns I see it as a little more general. Constant, main idea, clarification, ???, main idea but bigger. 

And I'd rather not debate the wording. We certainly could, but I agree that it's not the biggest part.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

. As far as the patterns I see it as a little more general constant, main idea, clarification, ???, main idea but bigger. 

So you think the fifth oath will be similar somehow to the second?

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

25 minutes ago, Karger said:

So you think the fifth oath will be similar somehow to the second?

Yes, a sort of idealized version of it. The skybreakers jump from "I'll put the law first" to "I am the law."

I see it as comparable to honorspren being the living personification of honor. Once you've sworn the 5th ideal your are a living personification of whatever, be it law, protection, or empathy.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[Karger he/him]

10 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I see it as comparable to honorspren being the living personification of honor. Once you've sworn the 5th ideal your are a living personification of whatever, be it law, protection, or empathy.

That sounds kind of hard.  I don't think humans are meant to be personifications.

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That sounds kind of hard.  I don't think humans are meant to be personifications.

Probably not personifications in any sort of metaphysical cosmic being sort of way, in that I think they'd still be human and whatnot just with a stronger Nahel Bond.  I think they are simply expected to be Masters of their order's Philosophy, a Buhdda or Dali Lama type figure that has achieved some sort of Enlightenment.   But at the end of the day that wouldnt make them any more of an inhuman paragon than being a Herald would, and we've seen ample evidence that they are not supernaturally dedicated to their attributed divine traits.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That sounds kind of hard.  I don't think humans are meant to be personifications.

Its supposed to be hard. Remember Nale is the only skybreaker to have sworn the 5th ideal in 100's mabe 1000's of years

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Its supposed to be hard. Remember Nale is the only skybreaker to have sworn the 5th ideal in 100's mabe 1000's of years

I was under the impression that something is very wrong with that.  The Honorspren captain believed that swearing ideal five happened as a matter of course.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I was under the impression that something is very wrong with that.  The Honorspren captain believed that swearing ideal five happened as a matter of course.

I think that swearing the fifth ideal happened commonly during desolations, because of the high amounts of stress involved. During other times it was most likely uncommon, as the Radiants didn't have as much struggle in their lives.

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Llstml said:

I think that swearing the fifth ideal happened commonly during desolations, because of the high amounts of stress involved. During other times it was most likely uncommon, as the Radiants didn't have as much struggle in their lives.

The diagram does indicate that stressing a potential radiant can make them realize their potential quicker but it is not like Roshar is a particularly peaceful society now.  Considering the work that Skybreakers do as law enforcement you would think that they could find the requisite amount of stress quite easily.

[Steel Inquisitive he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I was under the impression that something is very wrong with that.  The Honorspren captain believed that swearing ideal five happened as a matter of course.

I don't remember it that way. (Granted it's been awhile since I read OB last.) I believe you're referring to the scene where the captain says the bond can be split anytime before the fifth oath. I don't think he meant to imply that it was common for Radiants to achieve the fifth oath. Just that the bond couldn't be split afterwards.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

The diagram does indicate that stressing a potential radiant can make them realize their potential quicker but it is not like Roshar is a particularly peaceful society now.  Considering the work that Skybreakers do as law enforcement you would think that they could find the requisite amount of stress quite easily.

Imagine Kaladin without the stress of Moash wanting to kill Elhokar. He would still swear the third ideal, but it would have come later, because the second ideal was still sufficient for him. After he swore the third ideal, if not for the return of the singers, he wouldn't see too many sides, and would have had no problem for a long time. Kaladin is an extreme example of a Radiant, other people like Lopen are probably more typical; those who have had a troubled life, but not a "I watched my brother die in front of me, the only lighteyes I ever trusted betrayed me and murdered the squad of troops that I protected, and then after nine months of repeated failures to protect people, I was sent to a bridge crew" type of life.

[Karger he/him]

38 minutes ago, Llstml said:

Imagine Kaladin without the stress of Moash wanting to kill Elhokar. He would still swear the third ideal, but it would have come later, because the second ideal was still sufficient for him. After he swore the third ideal, if not for the return of the singers, he wouldn't see too many sides, and would have had no problem for a long time. Kaladin is an extreme example of a Radiant, other people like Lopen are probably more typical; those who have had a troubled life, but not a "I watched my brother die in front of me, the only lighteyes I ever trusted betrayed me and murdered the squad of troops that I protected, and then after nine months of repeated failures to protect people, I was sent to a bridge crew" type of life.

Yeah but as I said most of Roshar is at war and has been for years and just witnessing some of the things your average cop has to face should be traumatizing enough to get the job done.  Kaladin's struggles or more operatic because he is the main character but Tefts are perfectly normal ones that many people go through every day and overcoming them proves equally effective for getting to higher ideals.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Yeah but as I said most of Roshar is at war and has been for years and just witnessing some of the things your average cop has to face should be traumatizing enough to get the job done.  Kaladin's struggles or more operatic because he is the main character but Tefts are perfectly normal ones that many people go through every day and overcoming them proves equally effective for getting to higher ideals.

Teft wouldn't have sworn his oath without impetus from the attack on Urithuru, as there would have been no need. The Skybreakers do swear their oaths, but they do so more slowly, as 1. the fourth oath requires them to undertake a "crusade" and 2. they don't need to. Teft and Kaladin will probably stay at third oath for over a year, unless they swear the fourth offscreen, and that is during a Desolation.

[Karger he/him]

11 minutes ago, Llstml said:

Teft wouldn't have sworn his oath without impetus from the attack on Urithuru, as there would have been no need. The Skybreakers do swear their oaths, but they do so more slowly, as 1. the fourth oath requires them to undertake a "crusade" and 2. they don't need to. Teft and Kaladin will probably stay at third oath for over a year, unless they swear the fourth offscreen, and that is during a Desolation.

Switch Teft into a 2nd ideal skybreaker whose partner has just died while in pursuit of some armed murderers.  Not an uncommon occurrence but one that would lead to the same result. 

[NameIess]

47 minutes ago, Karger said:

Switch Teft into a 2nd ideal skybreaker whose partner has just died while in pursuit of some armed murderers.  Not an uncommon occurrence but one that would lead to the same result. 

The fourth ideal is very different though. They have to go on a crusade, and without a real reason for needing Plate, most simply choose not to. If my buddy died it wouldn't make me decide to go on a quest that could take years to complete.

[Karger he/him]

26 minutes ago, Llstml said:

The fourth ideal is very different though. They have to go on a crusade, and without a real reason for needing Plate, most simply choose not to. If my buddy died it wouldn't make me decide to go on a quest that could take years to complete.

Progressing with the ideals is not just about power.  It is about self improvement.  The impulse to do better is not as dramatic as it is during wartime but among highly motivated people like radiants I would think a large percentage even the majority would work to better themselves no matter their surroundings.