Children Soulcasting

[Nellac]

So I was thinking about it the other day and it seems soulcasting has a lot to do with changing the way something is perceived/perceives itself in the cognitive realm. I thought about the stick Shallan tries to soulcast and it took my to days in my childhood. As a kid when I would go camping sticks could be anything. It could be a wizards staff, a sword, a bow, you name it. I also would gather up rocks and pretend they were dragon/griffin eggs. I always have loved fantasy. That being said, is it possible that a child could be better at soulcasting than an adult? I know it's less likely they will get this power because they probably on't be developed enough to bond a spren, but just follow me on this one. Let's say for some reason they got an honor blade. I think they would be able to soulcast things in a simpler and greater way then adults because they are better able to imagine things and pretend the world around them is different. This also makes sense why the Lightweavers were usually very artistic. Not only did this help them create better illusions, but it would give them the imagination necessary to see something differently and to push those thoughts onto their cognitive version to create a change. I'm not a huge scholar of the cosmere so I might be missing an important detail about soulcasting or the cognitive realm so I'm putting this here to get other people's thoughts and opinions. Do you think a child would be better at soulcasting then an adult? If not, why not?

[GoWibble]

Well, Lightweavers are known for their creativity, which children exemplify. I think that it is a very possible option. Especially with Lift involved. 

Also, you double posted. to delete, go and edit the post up at the top right. 

[Nellac]

Yeah, I saw the double post, I just didn't know how to get rid of it. Thanks for the advice

 

[Bigmikey357]

Two Orders do the Soulcasting, Lightweaver and Elsecaller.  I think for the reasons you state, it would be difficult for children to draw Inkspren, children not named Jasnah Kholin aren't big on logic.  So your Soulcaster children are most likely coming from the Lightweaver order.

Perception is a huge part of surgebinding so I could see children with their limited filters being better able to communicate a change to a spren.  However,  most children have limited mental defenses as well. The CR is a dangerous place for those who are mostly defenseless.  They may be too good at Soulcasting.  If they see something in the CR that spooks them they could unintentionally create monsters. 

[Quantus]

There's no reason a Child couldnt bond the spren given that Shallan was bonded to Pattern by age 11.  That being said, Soulcasting seems to be the surge that arrives later (at least for Lightweavers) so the Child in question is likely to need to get a few Truths under their belt before they get full access to it.  By the time a Child is emotionally mature enough to Swear those Ideals/Truths, the argument could be made that they are not really Children any longer, despite their years.

[Feruchemical Skybreaker]

3 hours ago, Nellac said:

So I was thinking about it the other day and it seems soulcasting has a lot to do with changing the way something is perceived/perceives itself in the cognitive realm. I thought about the stick Shallan tries to soulcast and it took my to days in my childhood. As a kid when I would go camping sticks could be anything. It could be a wizards staff, a sword, a bow, you name it. I also would gather up rocks and pretend they were dragon/griffin eggs. I always have loved fantasy. That being said, is it possible that a child could be better at soulcasting than an adult? I know it's less likely they will get this power because they probably on't be developed enough to bond a spren, but just follow me on this one. Let's say for some reason they got an honor blade. I think they would be able to soulcast things in a simpler and greater way then adults because they are better able to imagine things and pretend the world around them is different. This also makes sense why the Lightweavers were usually very artistic. Not only did this help them create better illusions, but it would give them the imagination necessary to see something differently and to push those thoughts onto their cognitive version to create a change. I'm not a huge scholar of the cosmere so I might be missing an important detail about soulcasting or the cognitive realm so I'm putting this here to get other people's thoughts and opinions. Do you think a child would be better at soulcasting then an adult? If not, why not?

Lift is a child. She is a radiant with a shardblade (or a shardrod ).

I see it as plenty probable that a child would become a radiant. And being a creative child might make you better with the surge of Transformation as wel

[Pathfinder]

So I do not think children would soulcast easier/better for two reasons

1. They could easily die in the process of learning. Both times we see someone inexperienced first enter into shadesmar, they plummet through the beads and nearly drown. I could see a child panicking and being unable to focus to shape the beads so as to not drown. 

2. Jasnah speaks of transformation as a learned and practiced art. Wind you have to enact your will on it. Rock you have to convince about freedom and so on. Could a child be capable of learning to do so? Sure. But I do not personally think being able to imagine things differently would assist in the transformation of convincing something to change. 

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, Feruchemical Skybreaker said:

Lift is a child. She is a radiant with a shardblade (or a shardrod ).

shardfork.

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

1. They could easily die in the process of learning. Both times we see someone inexperienced first enter into shadesmar, they plummet through the beads and nearly drown. I could see a child panicking and being unable to focus to shape the beads so as to not drown. 

Children who are young even toddlers can learn to swim.

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

2. Jasnah speaks of transformation as a learned and practiced art. Wind you have to enact your will on it. Rock you have to convince about freedom and so on. Could a child be capable of learning to do so? Sure. But I do not personally think being able to imagine things differently would assist in the transformation of convincing something to change. 

Children have greater neuroplasticity.  They might be able to interact with shadesmar in some truly odd ways if they start learning from a young age.

[Pathfinder]

Just now, Karger said:

shardfork.

Children who are young even toddlers can learn to swim.

True, though Roshar is largely land locked, and teaching swimming at such a time period is not exactly a common thing. Especially for children, nonetheless adults. There have been sailors even for countless ages that never learned to swim even though they are on a boat and surrounded by water. But the big thing is, swimming doesn't work in the cognitive realm. The stones just shift around the person, and forces themselves into their eyes, nose, mouth, and ears. The only way to deal is to summon a "raft". That requires calm and focus. For myself a 5 year old child suddenly finding themselves in a alien place, dropping into beads that are forcing themselves into their mouth and various orifices would panic them enough to die. 

Just now, Karger said:

Children have greater neuroplasticity.  They might be able to interact with shadesmar in some truly odd ways if they start learning from a young age.

Learning yes, ie being taught by someone. But just discovering? I disagree. 

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

There have been sailors even for countless ages that never learned to swim even though they are on a boat and surrounded by water

There was an attitude in older maritime cultures that knowledge of how to swim would just prolong your suffering.  Also a lot of those people lived in places where the water was supper cold.

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

the big thing is, swimming doesn't work in the cognitive realm. The stones just shift around the person, and forces themselves into their eyes, nose, mouth, and ears

It was an analogy.  Sorry if I did not make this clear.  My point was that children can learn to survive in a lot of strange environments. 

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Learning yes, ie being taught by someone. But just discovering? I disagree. 

The spren teaches them no?

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

There was an attitude in older maritime cultures that knowledge of how to swim would just prolong your suffering.  Also a lot of those people lived in places where the water was supper cold.

It was an analogy.  Sorry if I did not make this clear.  My point was that children can learn to survive in a lot of strange environments. 

Sure, people can survive in all sorts of environments, just the impression I got from shadesmar is it actively tries to kill you. It would be like putting a child out in the Australian desert. Could the kid maybe possibly some how survive? Maybe? But heat stroke, snakes, spiders, dingos, and so on are going to make it sure hard. When you first try to soulcast, you send your self to shadesmar. Full adults panicked when entering without knowing what to expect and nearly drowned and died. Children I would assume the mortality rate would rise rather steeply. 

Quote

The spren teaches them no?

Did they? I know Kaladin, Shallan, and Jasnah experimented, but I do not recall the spren specifically teaching them how to use the surges. 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Sure, people can survive in all sorts of environments, just the impression I got from shadesmar is it actively tries to kill you

Not really.  It is more passive.  The only immediate danger comes from drowning.  Assuming the child did not panic but instead chose rationality the way Elsecallers seem to be tested or assuming the spren explained it ahead of time I think they would be OK.

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Did they? I know Kaladin, Shallan, and Jasnah experimented, but I do not recall the spren specifically teaching them how to use the surges. 

Pattern explained how Lightweaving worked in his sessions with Shallan in WoKs explaining its capabilities and its requirements.  He even told her some things like that she should not need to draw images first.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not really.  It is more passive.  The only immediate danger comes from drowning.  Assuming the child did not panic but instead chose rationality the way Elsecallers seem to be tested or assuming the spren explained it ahead of time I think they would be OK.

I can quote it later, but the beads do shove their way into your eyes, nose, throat, and ears. Actively. As in they are forcing their way in. It is not water that they just happen to leave their mouths open and swallowed. They forced their mouths shut, and the beads still forced their way in. That is very active to me. 

 

Words of Radiance page 21

Jasnah crashed into something. An ocean of the glass beads. Countless others rained around her, clicking like hailstones into the strange sea. She had never seen this place; she could not explain what had happened or what it meant. She thrashed as she sank into what seemed an impossibility. Beads of glass on all sides. She couldn't see anything beyond them, only felt herself descending through this churning, suffocating, clattering mass. Jasnah flailed in the darkness, beads rolling across her skin, getting into her clothing, working their way into her nose as she tried to swim. It was no use. She had no buoyancy in this b\mess. She raised a hand before her mouth and tried to make a pocket of air to use for breathing and managed to gasp a small breath. But the beads rolled around her hand, forcing between her fingers. The beads found their way into her mouth. They seemed to move on their own. They would choke her, destroy her. 

Quote

Pattern explained how Lightweaving worked in his sessions with Shallan in WoKs explaining its capabilities and its requirements.  He even told her some things like that she should not need to draw images first.

From what I recall she said she couldn't do sound, and Pattern was surprised she couldn't and he didn't then teach her how to. She still figured it out herself. 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

From what I recall she said she couldn't do sound, and Pattern was surprised she couldn't and he didn't then teach her how to. She still figured it out herself. 

But Pattern told her that it was possible to use sound.  Remember also that the spren are currently recovering from a massive devastation of their culture and learning.  They are basically dark age spren.  They presumably used to be much better at this sort of thing. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

But Pattern told her that it was possible to use sound.  Remember also that the spren are currently recovering from a massive devastation of their culture and learning.  They are basically dark age spren.  They presumably used to be much better at this sort of thing. 

For myself telling something is possible is different than teaching how to do it. Syl could tell kaladin he can fly, but if the only way he could test it (using an extreme example due to the lethality of shadesmar) is to drop off a cliff, then there is a pretty good chance he will go splat. Versus her saying to him you have to alter your perception to seeing up as down and so on. Which kaladin learned from testing and experimenting and finally from seeing szeth do it. Syl never taught him how to. Same thing with shallan. In fact sometimes the spren are even surprised by what the radiants can do and only realize it is possible when the radiants are capable of it. Shallan should have been able to do sound at the time which is why pattern knew she could potentially do it. But had she been a new lightweaver, she would have to discover how to do it. Probably normally back in the day you had existing radiants to teach but not now. Now it is sink or figure it out. For myself based on what jasnah went through, i could not see a 5 year old to 10 year old surviving that. Its like throwing a kid into quicksand. Quicksand that the kid never knew existed before, nor how to get out of but expect the child to figure out how to get out and not die. Is it possible? Sure. But personally i do not think it probable. For myself 9 times out of 10, that child will unfortunately die

[Aggravatione]

I would also like to point out that using pattern and shallans bond as a basis for anything isn't exactly the most sound idea. Due to the large gap in time of which pattern was locked away she has been regaining her radiant abilities very differently to how others would. So the fact that pattern knows some of these things and is able to tell shallans could be due to the fact that they had figured out some of it before. 

 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Versus her saying to him you have to alter your perception to seeing up as down and so on

Kaladin survived that remember?  All the child has to know how to do is draw in stormlight and they will be fine.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Shallan should have been able to do sound at the time which is why pattern knew she could potentially do it

Remember these are dark age spren.  They have no idea how any of this works yet.  They should be considerably more experienced. 

[Pathfinder]

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

Kaladin survived that remember?  All the child has to know how to do is draw in stormlight and they will be fine.

Could you explain? From what I recall Kaladin started by running through the chasms and trying to jump onto the side of the wall. Over time he figured out how to change his perception so he could stand on the wall. Are you speaking of when he first used adhesion to climb the wall? He was full of stormlight, and only dropped enough to break his legs. Regardless the illustration I meant to provide is place him in a situation that if he does not know how to do it, he will die. Syl did not explain. He learned and experimented himself. In Kaladin's case it was fortunate because those instances, were instances he was able to have the ability to experiment and survive. I do not think a child in shadesmar would have the same chance. 

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

Remember these are dark age spren.  They have no idea how any of this works yet.  They should be considerably more experienced. 

I am confused. Before you said Pattern taught and should know. Now you are saying he does not? Just trying to understand better what you are saying. 

[Karger]

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Could you explain? From what I recall Kaladin started by running through the chasms and trying to jump onto the side of the wall

He fell 40ft well Syl told him she "felt right about it."

23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am confused. Before you said Pattern taught and should know. Now you are saying he does not? Just trying to understand better what you are saying. 

He knows a bit but if this were 4500 years ago he would know considerably more.

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

He fell 40ft well Syl told him she "felt right about it."

You can survive a 40ft (4 stories) fall. You will be injured, but you can survive. Kaladin was holding stormlight which healed him. The stones in shadesmar run to you because you are holding stormlight and they drain it because they want it. Kaladin already knew stormlight heals. She didn't teach him anything. All she did was say "go for it". In my opinion

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

He knows a bit but if this were 4500 years ago he would know considerably more.

Well of course because there would be knights radiant around that he would be squired to to potentially learn from. But I thought we were going on the premise that a child would be able to better do it because of how a child's brain would work. The implication from me being they would not be receiving the rigid instruction from an adult to do so. Their "flexible" brains would be better at it. So I felt if a child bonded and tried to soulcast on their own, there would be a large chance (to me) that they would die.