Mistborn vs Else

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, HemalurgicStickBreaker said:

The debate is not Scadrian Vs. Rosharan it's Radiant Vs. Mistborn, Hoid has shown us that you don't need to come from either of those planets to be one. Plus Chromium is the one big advantage a Mb has over a Kr. What if the Knight radiant had access to the surge of gravitation? They would be able to stay high above where a Mistborn could reach, and even without it with a six foot long sword it's pretty easy to keep an opponent from touching you. Also Sanderson has already answered this:

Maria Goulet‏

Radiant vs. Mistborn: who wins?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the situation and the Radiant order.

This seems to imply that some, if not most Radiant orders could take a Mistborn. I don't doubt that it some Radiant orders would be beaten. I just feel like saying the Mistborn is the most dangerous non-shard being in the Cosmere is a bit presumptuous.

Also Double post

There was never any doubt that Radiants would more often than not have the advantage. This thread had long since moved past the assumption that Mistborn were the most dangerous thing. Heck, back before the first Stormlight book was even written Brandon had said that without Atium, a Mistborn was less dangerous than a Feruchemist. 

The issue that this thread had evolved into is whether a Radiant would almost always win against a Mistborn. While I do believe more often than not a Radiant would have the advantage. I and others disagree that it is to the extent that some believe. 

As to your question about if the Radiant has access to the Surge of Gravitation and stays away, well that's simple. The Radiant would be using up their single fuel source for all their powers just to keep a distance. And attacking a Mistborn from a distance when they know where the attack is coming from wouldn't be all that effective.

The Orders that I think would be most effective against a Mistborn would be Windrunners, Skybreakers, Edgedancers, Truthcallers, and potentially the Dustbringers

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

The Orders that I think would be most effective against a Mistborn would be Windrunners, Skybreakers, Edgedancers, Truthcallers, and potentially the Dustbringers

Why'd you include the Truthwatchers? Extra healing power? (Also the Elsecallers can just go into the cognitive and soulcast the Mistborn into smoke.)

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Why'd you include the Truthwatchers? Extra healing power? (Also the Elsecallers can just go into the cognitive and soulcast the Mistborn into smoke.)

The healing is exactly why. We've seen with Miles just how implacable supercharged healing can be in a fight.

People keep giving that argument but I don't think it would work. Mistborn are innately Invested and Jasnah thinks to herself in Oathbringer that it's normally very difficult to Soulcast a normal person so Investiture interference would make it even harder. Like trying to Steelpush a Shardblade. She even comments to herself that he only reason she does it so easily in OB is because of the Perpendicularity that Dalinar created bringing all of the Realms together and the nigh limitless amount of Stormlight present in that situation. 

[NameIess]

34 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

People keep giving that argument but I don't think it would work. Mistborn are innately Invested and Jasnah thinks to herself in Oathbringer that it's normally very difficult to Soulcast a normal person so Investiture interference would make it even harder. Like trying to Steelpush a Shardblade. She even comments to herself that he only reason she does it so easily in OB is because of the Perpendicularity that Dalinar created bringing all of the Realms together and the nigh limitless amount of Stormlight present in that situation. 

Mistborn are much less invested than a Shardblade, as the bands of mourning are less invested than a Shardblade. The Mistborns only chance would be to flare all their metals. Even if they did that, what's to stop the Elsecaller from soulcasting the air around the Mistborn to rock? or fire?

 

Edit- Extra healing wouldn't be useful against aluminum.

Edited April 1, 2020 by Nameless

[StanLemon]

45 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Mistborn are much less invested than a Shardblade, as the bands of mourning are less invested than a Shardblade. The Mistborns only chance would be to flare all their metals. Even if they did that, what's to stop the Elsecaller from soulcasting the air around the Mistborn to rock? or fire?

 

Edit- Extra healing wouldn't be useful against aluminum.

I was using the Shardblade as an example. If Soulcasting a normal person is considered very difficult, a Mistborn would be even more so. Soulcasting them like that, even if possible without a super boost, would be impractical in a fight. As to Soulcasting the air around it. That is definitely a valid and good tactic. I personally assume though that Bronze would give some warning to that, though as I said, that is a personal belief. Atium would for sure see it coming.

Aluminum cancels healing, but only if it stays in the wound. Though an aluminum knife to the brain would probably be an instant kill

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, StanLemon said:

Aluminum cancels healing, but only if it stays in the wound. Though an aluminum knife to the brain would probably be an instant kill

A dagger through the eyeslit is one of the the easiest ways to hurt the Radiant, so an aluminum dagger wouldn't be too unlikely.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

I can’t be bothered to read this whole post so I’ll just throw my two cents in blindly.

A Mistborn’s biggest edge in this fight is speed bubbles. They can double stack them and catch the Radiant in the outer layer of the slow bubble. This would leave the radiant stuck there for hours. The Mistborn could shoot them in the face hundreds of times from there, essentially decapitating the Radiant (which, unless I’m mistaken, is one of the few way that they can be kill). The deflection of the bubbles would be easy to overcome since the Mistborn could just toss metal through them at high angles and wait until the fall into an intercept course with the Radiants head. You could probably also swing a long enough bladed weapon into the gap and decapitate them that way. The Mistborn could also wait until the Radiant was about to cross in normal speed and touch them with chrome burning. It should wipe their Stormlight and make for a super easy kill.

Withought speed bubbles, most Radiant orders could probably kill a Mistborn without much challenge with a combo of healing, Shards and Surges.

[Frustration]

23 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I can’t be bothered to read this whole post so I’ll just throw my two cents in blindly.

A Mistborn’s biggest edge in this fight is speed bubbles. They can double stack them and catch the Radiant in the outer layer of the slow bubble. This would leave the radiant stuck there for hours. The Mistborn could shoot them in the face hundreds of times from there, essentially decapitating the Radiant (which, unless I’m mistaken, is one of the few way that they can be kill). The deflection of the bubbles would be easy to overcome since the Mistborn could just toss metal through them at high angles and wait until the fall into an intercept course with the Radiants head. You could probably also swing a long enough bladed weapon into the gap and decapitate them that way. The Mistborn could also wait until the Radiant was about to cross in normal speed and touch them with chrome burning. It should wipe their Stormlight and make for a super easy kill.

Withought speed bubbles, most Radiant orders could probably kill a Mistborn without much challenge with a combo of healing, Shards and Surges.

Are you referring to making a huge Cadium bubble followed by a Bendalloy bubble? Because only the second would be needed, and again I'm going to bring Plate up coins will NOT crack plate.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

1 hour ago, Booknerd said:

Are you referring to making a huge Cadium bubble followed by a Bendalloy bubble? Because only the second would be needed, and again I'm going to bring Plate up coins will NOT crack plate.

If the Mistborn only uses a bendalloy bubble, they are still in the same time space as the Radiant, which will likely lead to their demise. They need to catch the Radiant in the overlap of the cadmium and bendally bubbles.

Why wouldn’t coins crack plate? They carry about as much force as a bullet (they’re slower but quite a bit more massive).

Edit: I just realized what you meant by only needing one bubble. The purpose of using two is capturing the Radiant right at the edge of the bendalloy bubble. This lets you mostly ignore the deflection problem, and it lets you time a chromium attack very accurately. If you just pop a bendalloy bubble up while the Radiant is charging, you risk messing up the timing and either catching them in the bubble with you (game over) or catching them to far away.

The goal is to walk right up to them and hit them in the face with a full coin pouch on a duralumin push. Basically grapeshot from an artillery piece.

 

Edit 2: Another idea I’ve been kicking and is emotional Allomancy. If you duralumin riot someone’s fear, you might be able to trigger a psychotic episode. For example, Jasnah seems to have some kind of terrible childhood trauma (I think being locked in the dark to “treat” some kind of supposed mental problem is a popular theory) she might be dropped into a hallucination of that experience for a time. Similarly, if you duralumin riot Kaladin’s depression he might commit seppuku on the spot. This would obviously require knowledge of the individual Radiant, but it is a possible avenue of attack.

Edited April 2, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Frustration]

42 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

If the Mistborn only uses a bendalloy bubble, they are still in the same time space as the Radiant, which will likely lead to their demise. They need to catch the Radiant in the overlap of the cadmium and bendally bubbles.

Why wouldn’t coins crack plate? They carry about as much force as a bullet (they’re slower but quite a bit more massive).

Edit: I just realized what you meant by only needing one bubble. The purpose of using two is capturing the Radiant right at the edge of the bendalloy bubble. This lets you mostly ignore the deflection problem, and it lets you time a chromium attack very accurately. If you just pop a bendalloy bubble up while the Radiant is charging, you risk messing up the timing and either catching them in the bubble with you (game over) or catching them to far away.

The goal is to walk right up to them and hit them in the face with a full coin pouch on a duralumin push. Basically grapeshot from an artillery piece.

Dur-aluminum coins might be able to crack plate, but normal coins won't. Due to the shape of plate coins will role off, so extended pushing becomes impossible, and the initial impact isn't enough.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

4 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Dur-aluminum coins might be able to crack plate, but normal coins won't. Due to the shape of plate coins will role off, so extended pushing becomes impossible, and the initial impact isn't enough.

I think the best strategy would be to get as close to the edge as possible and take a knee. Aim for just bellow the throat. The high angle means that the Mistborn can eat most of the recoil with pewter and not get launched. Aiming at a flat portion like the upper chest means the coins have a better chance of not deflecting and since it’s suck a large projectile it will take the head off easily once it’s through. I can only imagine what all of those coins ricocheting around inside the helmet will do to the head.

As for whether duralumin can break plate, someone else can do the math but I’m pretty sure the force required to launch Vin a half mile is more than it takes to swing a hammer.

[Frustration]

39 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I think the best strategy would be to get as close to the edge as possible and take a knee. Aim for just bellow the throat. The high angle means that the Mistborn can eat most of the recoil with pewter and not get launched. Aiming at a flat portion like the upper chest means the coins have a better chance of not deflecting and since it’s suck a large projectile it will take the head off easily once it’s through. I can only imagine what all of those coins ricocheting around inside the helmet will do to the head.

As for whether duralumin can break plate, someone else can do the math but I’m pretty sure the force required to launch Vin a half mile is more than it takes to swing a hammer.

You underestimate plate, even regular plate can take 160+ pounds of force and only be dented, also Plate is designed to reflect projectiles away from the face, they have v shape pattern on the chest to guide them, again Tod's Workshop on you tube has a great video on this arrows vs armor, I highly recommend it. Dur-aluminum could crack it, but this plate will (probably) regrow before the Mistborn can get the next hit in.

[StanLemon]

Brandon has said it only takes a couple bullets to break Plate.

I'm not sure how much force a Steelpush has compared to a bullet. But metal objects that hit people with a Steelpush have often been instant kills, so they still provide a fair amount of force

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Dur-aluminum could crack it, but this plate will (probably) regrow before the Mistborn can get the next hit in.

This is actually a valid question that should be considered. Can Plate regenerate in a fight? With dead Plate it takes a while for Plate to regenerate even with Stormlight that's held in gems larger than broams. My guess is that living Plate would regenerate faster but I doubt that it would regrow fast enough to matter in a fight. That or impractical as it would probably use up a lot of the Radiants Stormlight reserves to grow it back

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

This is actually a valid question that should be considered. Can Plate regenerate in a fight? With dead Plate it takes a while for Plate to regenerate even with Stormlight that's held in gems larger than broams.

From Kal's fight in WoR it seems that a Radiant can heal Plate faster than pure gems can.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

I think that the plate being able to repair itself is an advantage to the Mistborn. The Radiant at this point is stuck like a bug in glue. The Mistborn is moving so fast inside the bubble that they can’t even be seen. Hold a roll of coins up to the edge of the bubble and machine gun them one at a time into the Radiants face. Do this until the Radiant runs out of Stormlight. Continue until the Radiants helmet shatters. Continue until the Radiant no longer has a head. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

I guess the Mistborn could actually just use one coin for the helmet. Get it through the edge of the bubble and then jackhammer the Radiant’s face with alternating iron and steel. The coin would be moving in slow motion from the Mistborn perspective so control would be extremely fine tuned. Once the helmet is gone and the coin is to covered in head slime to push or pull you can start adding more coins.

Edited April 2, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Frustration]

11 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I think that the plate being able to repair itself is an advantage to the Mistborn. The Radiant at this point is stuck like a bug in glue. The Mistborn is moving so fast inside the bubble that they can’t even be seen. Hold a roll of coins up to the edge of the bubble and machine gun them one at a time into the Radiants face. Do this until the Radiant runs out of Stormlight. Continue until the Radiants helmet shatters. Continue until the Radiant no longer has a head. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

I guess the Mistborn could actually just use one coin for the helmet. Get it through the edge of the bubble and then jackhammer the Radiant’s face with alternating iron and steel. The coin would be moving in slow motion from the Mistborn perspective so control would be extremely fine tuned. Once the helmet is gone and the coin is to covered in head slime to push or pull you can start adding more coins.

Normal coin's won't work, It would require Dur-aluminum, and that takes all the Mistborn's steel, and Bendalloy/Cadmium so unless the Mistborn can replenish before the Radiant kills them/heals plate that strategy is a Radiant win.

[Karger he/him]

12 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I think that the plate being able to repair itself is an advantage to the Mistborn. The Radiant at this point is stuck like a bug in glue. The Mistborn is moving so fast inside the bubble that they can’t even be seen. Hold a roll of coins up to the edge of the bubble and machine gun them one at a time into the Radiants face. Do this until the Radiant runs out of Stormlight. Continue until the Radiants helmet shatters. Continue until the Radiant no longer has a head. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

That requires much better accuracy then is conceivable inside a bubble.  Even at point black range Wax best marksmen on scadrial has trouble firing through one. Also you forget the equal and opposite reaction.  How is your mistborn braced? 

[NameIess]

3 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Brandon has said it only takes a couple bullets to break Plate.

I'm not sure how much force a Steelpush has compared to a bullet. But metal objects that hit people with a Steelpush have often been instant kills, so they still provide a fair amount of force

Actually, he said that Wax could break Plate with only a few bullets. Not an ordinary bullet, a bullet potentially pushed on by a crasher.

Quote

Questioner

How many shots would it take for Wax using his gun to break a section of Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the gun... Okay, so Vindication. He could probably... depends on the bullet, cause he's got several styles. But let's just say two or three. There's an argument he could do it with one, with the right shot, the right bullet, in the right moment.

 

[StanLemon]

Just now, Nameless said:

Actually, he said that Wax could break Plate with only a few bullets. Not an ordinary bullet, a bullet potentially pushed on by a crasher.

 

But he says nothing about Wax pushing on the bullets. He said Wax was the one firing because the questioner said Wax. There is no reason to assume that Brandon didn't mean bullets in general 

[Frustration]

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

But he says nothing about Wax pushing on the bullets. He said Wax was the one firing because the questioner said Wax. There is no reason to assume that Brandon didn't mean bullets in general 

It says HE not you or some other term HE, also you'd have to land that just so or it will slide off ht curve of plate.

 

[StanLemon]

5 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

It says HE not you or some other term HE, also you'd have to land that just so or it will slide off ht curve of plate.

 

That's stretching by using HE as your argument. The person asked about Wax because he is the main character and gunslinger of the story. It was a hypothetical about Wax shooting a Plate bearer. But he didn't say anything about pushing on the bullet. What he DID say is that it would depend on the bullet and an argument could be made that a single shot could do it with the right shot, bullet, and moment. Again, nothing about him pushing the bullet

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

1 hour ago, Booknerd said:

Normal coin's won't work, It would require Dur-aluminum, and that takes all the Mistborn's steel, and Bendalloy/Cadmium so unless the Mistborn can replenish before the Radiant kills them/heals plate that strategy is a Radiant win.

If plate can stand up to getting jackhammered then nothing can break it and Radiants are invincible. I suggested duralumin earlier as a means of breaking plate in one push. I have since updated that and now recommend breaking the plate with thousands of strikes from a single coin being pushed and pulled repeatedly. It doesn’t really need to be a coin either. It could just as easily be a ball bering or other hard metallic object.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That requires much better accuracy then is conceivable inside a bubble.  Even at point black range Wax best marksmen on scadrial has trouble firing through one. Also you forget the equal and opposite reaction.  How is your mistborn braced? 

Why would it require accuracy? You’re literally pounding a piece of metal into their face from a few inches away.

I did not forget. All they would need to do is lower their center of gravity and throw two metallic anchors behind them. Alternatively they can just reposition themselves after every hit. The Radiant is completely immobile and experiencing time at a significantly lower rate. The time it would take to reposition after every strike would be imperceptible fractions of a second to the Radiant.

edit: because I’m rude.

Edited April 2, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Karger he/him]

34 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Why would it require accuracy? You’re literally pounding a piece of metal into their face from a few inches away.

The metal will be deflected unpredictably as it exists the time bubble.  This is why Wax can't fire a gun out of them.

35 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I did not forget. All they would need to do is lower their center of gravity and throw two metallic anchors behind them. Alternatively they can just reposition themselves after every hit. The Radiant is completely immobile and experiencing time at a significantly lower rate. The time it would take to reposition after every strike would be imperceptible fractions of a second to the Radiant.

A radiant with plate will mass more so you will need additional anchors or you will just throw yourself.

[NameIess]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

The metal will be deflected unpredictably as it exists the time bubble.  This is why Wax can't fire a gun out of them.

What I think @SwordNimiForPresident is getting at is that the Mistborn tosses the metal outside the bubble, then uses steel and iron to maneuver it into position, before repeatedly smashing it into the Radiants faceplate.