Jasnah's religion

[RShara she/her]

7 minutes ago, Debarra said:

The only measure there related to that is immortal. No character beyond a shard, and even then argubaboy they don't meet all the criteria. So really nobody reaches those criteria in the Cosmere.

 

I don't think OP ever said anything about needing to worship them. They just asked if you don't regonise a being like a Shard as a good then what exactly would an Athiest be looking for?

But that's the point. Jasnah doesn't believe the Shards are worthy of worship. That's what would comprise a god in her mind. A being worth being worshipped.

 

Quote

“You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.”

“I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.”

“And the Heralds? You don’t think they existed?”

“I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is some slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher.”

“Then he would be real.”

“I never claimed he was not,” Jasnah said. “I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him. But this is, again, a tangent.” Jasnah stood. “You are relieved of other duties of study. For the next few days, you have only one focus for your scholarship.” She pointed toward the floor.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by RShara

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I personally find Rock to be more in keeping with animism.  Otherwise I agree with you.

I think Taosim is related to animism, so as I understand it Taosim contains some animist beliefs, but that is a fair point :-)

 

[Edit]

6 minutes ago, RShara said:

But that's the point. Jasnah doesn't believe the Shards are worthy of worship. That's what would comprise a god in her mind. A being worth being worshipped.

I think something important to clear up is what does it mean to worship something - I have my own beliefs on that and what worship is, but not everyone would agree with that, as with many definitions. As such, we should clear up what is meant by that term. What do you feel falls under the category of worship?

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by Ixthos

[Pathfinder]

17 minutes ago, Debarra said:

The only measure there related to that is immortal. No character beyond a shard, and even then argubaboy they don't meet all the criteria. So really nobody reaches those criteria in the Cosmere.

Beings in the cosmere that are immortal, powerful and can move planets but are not shards number five and that is just off the top of my head

Spoiler

 

elantrians

returned

fullborn

spren

cognitive shadows

 

 

And anyone with the right knowledge can get a shard and ascend. So if joe schmoe can just as easily become a shard, then why should joe be worshipped?

Edited January 3, 2020 by Pathfinder

[RShara she/her]

2 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I think something important to clear up is what does it mean to worship something - I have my own beliefs on that and what worship is, but not everyone would agree with that, as with many definitions. As such, we should clear up what is meant by that term. What do you feel falls under the category of worship?

 

Quote

Definition of worship

 (Entry 1 of 2)

transitive verb

1 : to honor or show reverence for as a divine being or supernatural power

So I guess that might be a bit of circular reasoning heh. The point being, though, is that, as you said, immortal and powerful do not equate God.

[RShara she/her]

If it were that easy to define divinity, there wouldn't be global arguments over the matter Someone who could create an actual heaven and hell, create all of time and space, in all universes, would be a start, though.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Debarra said:

But then my question still remains, what is God then? If a being like a shard that literally is capable of creating entire planets, can see the future, is connected to all things is not considered a god then what is? What is Jasnah looking for?

Why must there be something that is God?

Quote

 In your quote Jasnah defines something being a God and needing worship as two separate traits.

In the quote Jasnah acknowledges such beings with power may exist, but she has no reason to worship them.

Quote

The inclusion of "nor" implies they are two separate things. Jasnah would see worshipping a being and seeing it as God as two separate things. So then we are left with the same question, what is she looking for?

Why must she be looking for something? What has been presented her is not sufficient. 

Quote

On that topic we are lead into a different question yet again. Does Jasnah even realise what Honour was like? She refers to the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher but not Honour or Cultivation. Does she even know they exist? And if she does and still rejects those things as god then what is she looking for?

Why must she be looking for something?

Quote

Again powerful and moving a planet was never in the list. Oltux72 listed creating planets, immortality and being beyond time and space as qualities of a god like being. None of the things you listed are beyond time and space or can create planets so they aren't god like under that list.

The list I provided all use power beyond time and space, can all create planets, and are all immortal. You also did not answer my assertion. If joe schmoe can attain a shard and ascend, why should Joe Schmoe be worshiped. If I got my hands on a shard, would you be expected to worship me? Call me God?

Edited January 3, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@Honorless I think the argument would be that Joe Schmoe would no more be worthy of worship as Jane Doe, but the power would be - to those who think shards are gods, the power and the idea the power is tied to as an ideal, are things to worship. They are beyond the vessel, the vessel just giving them expression. However, I am on the side of those who disagree with that :-)

 

I think the key thing to remember, as RShara's quote from the dictionary shows, is that worship has been defined more by what someone does, venerating and giving honour, rather than the reasoning behind it. Typically worship is seen as an act, rather than as a response or motivation. If worship - sacrificing your children, or performing a ritual to gain a fertile harvest when you need a harvest better than last year to survive - is needed for survival, then the explination changes. Not all worship is like that though.

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Ixthos said:

and some of those do come close to the idea of God, and there are several real world religions which reflect certain beliefs about the divine, such as Rock's relation to Syl being seemingly to me to match the beliefs in Shintoism and Taosim - at least as I understand them, and if anyone can correct me on that, please do so.

Brandon has confirmed that he had Shinto as a major influence when it came to creating the spren and the way they're perceived. There's definitely a lot of resonance there, as kami run the gamut from local entities associated with a particular place or thing to anthropomorphic entities closer to, say, a deity that someone in ancient Greece or Rome would understand as a god.

7 minutes ago, Debarra said:

The inclusion of "nor" implies they are two separate things. Jasnah would see worshipping a being and seeing it as God as two separate things. So then we are left with the same question, what is she looking for?

Let me answer this with an example. There's a particular form of theistic belief called Deism, which posits that some entity that we might call God created the universe but takes no active role in it beyond that, including any conception of an afterlife. We might say 'here's an all-powerful and all-knowing entity, it's God' but not necessarily see any point in worshiping such an entity because it doesn't need, want or possibly even notice the worship and it has no effect on the worshiper either. In a purely materialistic viewpoint, it would be akin to worshiping the Big Bang.

Likewise one could posit a deity that created the universe and is actively involved but isn't worthy of worship. This comes up in some forms of Gnostic belief for example, with an entity who created the material universe and everything in it, but the material universe is imperfect and the goal is to escape from it into a more perfect spiritual one, or the creator entity is actually evil. In either case, it might have the powers that could be attributed to an omnimax god but still not be something you'd want to worship.

Jasnah in that passage seems to be looking for something that both fits her definition of a God and which she would feel worth worshiping. Or waiting for someone else to provide her with proof of such a God if she can't find it herself.

Quote

On that topic we are lead into a different question yet again. Does Jasnah even realise what Honour was like? She refers to the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher but not Honour or Cultivation. Does she even know they exist? And if she does and still rejects those things as god then what is she looking for?

Given that by the end of WoR Hoid has revealed to her that Honor was originally a mortal man named Tanavast who once bought him a drink, I think it's safe to say that she's got a better handle on the subject than most Rosharans.

[Karger he/him]

38 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

I think Taosim is related to animism, so as I understand it Taosim contains some animist beliefs, but that is a fair point :-)

Kind of.  Animism is the belief that all things have a soul and an awareness. Taoism indicates that there is only one great soul that all things are patterned off of.  I am massively simplifying here of course.

[RShara she/her]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Kind of.  Animism is the belief that all things have a soul and an awareness. Taoism indicates that there is only one great soul that all things are patterned off of.  I am massively simplifying here of course.

Off topic, you should probably change your nickname back, since Ookla season is over

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

@Honorless I think the argument would be that Joe Schmoe would no more be worthy of worship as Jane Doe, but the power would be - to those who think shards are gods, the power and the idea the power is tied to as an ideal, are things to worship. They are beyond the vessel, the vessel just giving them expression. However, I am on the side of those who disagree with that :-)

 

I think the key thing to remember, as RShara's quote from the dictionary shows, is that worship has been defined more by what someone does, venerating and giving honour, rather than the reasoning behind it. Typically worship is seen as an act, rather than as a response or motivation. If worship - sacrificing your children, or performing a ritual to gain a fertile harvest when you need a harvest better than last year to survive - is needed for survival, then the explination changes. Not all worship is like that though.

So you were replying about me saying Joe Schmoe, but tagged Honorless. Were you responding to me or Honorless?

If responding to me, the power itself has no sapience (unless it lacks a holder, and even then that is rare as per Brandon). So the power itself is an undirected force. As I mentioned earlier, Jasnah knows of the religions on Roshar, and none of them hold any appeal to her. So worshiping forces that are naturally part of the cosmere such as gravity, holds no appeal to her. Worshiping power that has gained sapience (such as the stormfather) holds no appeal to her. Worshiping a fallible individual who just happen to get their hands on a whole ton of power, also holds no appeal to her. 

(I understand you yourself do not hold such a perspective, I was replying to the point being made)

Edited January 3, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Bliev she/her]

I also think that sometimes theists in particular misunderstand many atheists, thinking that it's the lack of proof that motivates the lack of belief, rather than a lack of caring. For instance, you could prove to me that an all powerful, all knowing "god" exists, but I probably wouldn't care. It doesn't affect my life. I wouldn't choose to study it or worship it or apologize to it. I just would do--the same things I've always done. And I think that's where Jasnah lies. She cares about what she cares about--and that doesn't include religion in any way shape or form. She seems to have done some searching earlier in her life for something that she could live with, but decided it wasn't worth it. She has other things on her mind--and ontology probably isn't what drives her. So she isn't looking for a god. It's just not important.

I think this probably stems from the tendency of some atheists to debate with theists about the existence of god, almost as a "gotcha" sort of philosophical exercise. I think this is futile, unnecessary, and I don't care. I think there are more atheists who just don't think about it and don't care than people think there are! 

[Honorless he/him]

@Ixthos, okay but I don't think that matters all that much.

Religion is weird, some religions believe that other gods exist and that they should try to subsume these other gods so only theirs remain. Others believe gods are <insert swearword here> who just needs to be placated. The nature of the being or how you venerate them or appease them does not matter here. Or even that you acknowledge their existence, it's about acknowledgement of their role. If an creator being existed, he could be seen as God or a demiurge. If multiple gods existed, they could be seen as gods, or demons or spirits or other categories that are not present in English. If everything was part of the body of a god, that being could be called God or a massive superorganism. In these cases these forces of nature called Shards can be called gods or just, you know, natural forces. It doesn't matter what the object of worship is, religion is internal. And Jasnah doesn't have religious beliefs.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

I think this probably stems from the tendency of some atheists to debate with theists about the existence of god, almost as a "gotcha" sort of philosophical exercise.

I think this is important. This "gotcha" moment. We already know from Brandon there will never be an absolute proof of an ultimate deity or not. There never will be a gotcha moment. So why are there threads after threads trying to find the "gotcha" moment for Jasnah? There never will be one. The author of the series said so himself. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

45 minutes ago, RShara said:

“I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.”

That is no longer true. She has witnessed his recordings and spoken to eye witnesses. She does understand that unlike Spren, Honor did not live in Shadesmar.

Just now, Pathfinder said:

If responding to me, the power itself has no sapience (unless it lacks a holder, and even then that is rare as per Brandon).

Yes.

Just now, Pathfinder said:

So the power itself is an undirected force.

No. The power induces specific behavior and attitudes in the vessel. It is kind of like a parasite or a virus. It is not something like entropy or electromagnetism.

Just now, Pathfinder said:

As I mentioned earlier, Jasnah knows of the religions on Roshar, and none of them hold any appeal to her.

Well, right, but Jasnah originally doubted the very existance of Honor, as opposed his worthiness.

 

[RShara she/her]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

That is no longer true. She has witnessed his recordings and spoken to eye witnesses. She does understand that unlike Spren, Honor did not live in Shadesmar.

 

She has proof of Honor, the Shard, and Tanavast, the Vessel. She doesn't have proof of the Almighty, as described in the Vorin religion.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is no longer true. She has witnessed his recordings and spoken to eye witnesses. She does understand that unlike Spren, Honor did not live in Shadesmar.

Yes.

No. The power induces specific behavior and attitudes in the vessel. It is kind of like a parasite or a virus. It is not something like entropy or electromagnetism.

Well, right, but Jasnah originally doubted the very existance of Honor, as opposed his worthiness.

 

So I get a shard. Are you supposed to worship me? Are you now going to call me God? Just because I ascended. I haven't done a thing good or bad with it yet. I literally just picked it up. Am I now your God? Fall to your knees and pray to me?

[agrabes]

23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why must there be something that is God?

In the quote Jasnah acknowledges such beings with power may exist, but she has no reason to worship them.

Why must she be looking for something? What has been presented her is not sufficient. 

Why must she be looking for something?

The list I provided all use power beyond time and space, can all create planets, and are all immortal. You also did not answer my assertion. If joe schmoe can attain a shard and ascend, why should Joe Schmoe be worshiped. If I got my hands on a shard, would you be expected to worship me? Call me God?

I don't think "looking for something" is meant literally.  The entire point of the discussion is that there are beings that exist on Roshar which would be described as a "god" in many real life religions.  Jasnah knows of, and even acknowledges the existence of many of these beings.  It would be like saying "Zeus is real and I met him yesterday, but I'm still an atheist."  If a being exists that is called a god by many people and there is no deception going (i.e. it doesn't turn out that Zeus is just an alien that said he was a god, he is the literal son of Kronos and Rhea and the grandson of the earth and the sky exactly as described by Greek mythology), then it seems difficult for a person to be an atheist.

I think the problem comes in the sense that our concept of atheism doesn't really work in the world of a fantasy novel, or with the type of god that exists in religions like Greek Mythology.  Today, we would say that an atheist is a person who believes that theism is false, i.e. that deities/gods do not exist.  In today's world it means that if you are an atheist you believe equally that the Christian God, Zeus and his pantheon, and the various spirits of Shinto do not exist.  If Zeus and the Greek pantheon exist and are considered gods by the majority of the population, but one person says that while Zeus exists and is exactly as described in Greek Mythology he is not a god, I don't know that I would call that person an atheist.  That person is a contrarian, disagreeing with the consensus definition of what it means to be a god.

In my view, the Shards do qualify as gods within the context of a pantheon religion.  In this type of a pantheon setting, to be a god I believe you have to be the personification of a fundamental concept, force, or element.  For example - Zeus is the god of thunder.  He is thunder in the form of a person and has power over all thunder and lightning.  Honor is the god of, well, honor.  He is the personification of all things related to oaths and obligations.  If you were to get your hands on a Shard, then yes you would become a god in the cosmere by most common definitions.  Worthy of worship is a separate item.  In a pantheon religion, you generally choose which god or gods you worship.  If you believed the Greek Mythology was true, but chose not to worship any god in the pantheon that does not make you an atheist.

Jasnah is an atheist in the sense that she believes that the "Almighty" of the Vorin religion is not real, nor are any of the other known religions of Roshar.  That was a lot more meaningful before it becomes public knowledge that Vorinism is provably false.  I don't believe that she qualifies as an atheist in the literal meaning of the word - a person who does not believe that deities exist.  She is a person who feels that the gods who do exist are too human to qualify as gods in her opinion.

[Pathfinder]

24 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I don't think "looking for something" is meant literally.  The entire point of the discussion is that there are beings that exist on Roshar which would be described as a "god" in many real life religions.  Jasnah knows of, and even acknowledges the existence of many of these beings.  It would be like saying "Zeus is real and I met him yesterday, but I'm still an atheist."  If a being exists that is called a god by many people and there is no deception going (i.e. it doesn't turn out that Zeus is just an alien that said he was a god, he is the literal son of Kronos and Rhea and the grandson of the earth and the sky exactly as described by Greek mythology), then it seems difficult for a person to be an atheist.

I think the problem comes in the sense that our concept of atheism doesn't really work in the world of a fantasy novel, or with the type of god that exists in religions like Greek Mythology.  Today, we would say that an atheist is a person who believes that theism is false, i.e. that deities/gods do not exist.  In today's world it means that if you are an atheist you believe equally that the Christian God, Zeus and his pantheon, and the various spirits of Shinto do not exist.  If Zeus and the Greek pantheon exist and are considered gods by the majority of the population, but one person says that while Zeus exists and is exactly as described in Greek Mythology he is not a god, I don't know that I would call that person an atheist.  That person is a contrarian, disagreeing with the consensus definition of what it means to be a god.

In my view, the Shards do qualify as gods within the context of a pantheon religion.  In this type of a pantheon setting, to be a god I believe you have to be the personification of a fundamental concept, force, or element.  For example - Zeus is the god of thunder.  He is thunder in the form of a person and has power over all thunder and lightning.  Honor is the god of, well, honor.  He is the personification of all things related to oaths and obligations.  If you were to get your hands on a Shard, then yes you would become a god in the cosmere by most common definitions.  Worthy of worship is a separate item.  In a pantheon religion, you generally choose which god or gods you worship.  If you believed the Greek Mythology was true, but chose not to worship any god in the pantheon that does not make you an atheist.

Jasnah is an atheist in the sense that she believes that the "Almighty" of the Vorin religion is not real, nor are any of the other known religions of Roshar.  That was a lot more meaningful before it becomes public knowledge that Vorinism is provably false.  I don't believe that she qualifies as an atheist in the literal meaning of the word - a person who does not believe that deities exist.  She is a person who feels that the gods who do exist are too human to qualify as gods in her opinion.

In this case I disagree. I believe what the person is putting forward is:

1. what must be presented for Jasnah to recant her atheism and state God exists. 

The something the person is putting forward that she is looking for, is the "if this can be shown, then I will recant and state god exists", thereby having the "gotcha!" moment of "well this shard can do that, so that shard is god, so gotcha! you have to admit god exists!". The, Jasnah is looking for "x" and since she has not found "x" then god does not exist. That if she were to discover "x", then she would admit god exists. This is ultimately pointless because as I said, Brandon has gone on record saying that question will never be answered so that theists, agnostics, and atheists can all co-exist and be right at the same time. They will never know for sure. 

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, I will put forward again what I have twice now done so. Anyone can pick up a shard. They just need the know how. So I pick up a shard. I ascend. I literally just did it. Bow down to me and worship me for I am now your god. If someone irked me on the boards, I can use my cosmic powers to destroy them. Their family should bow down to me, and say "welp, thats an act of god. god is good". Forgetting that just moments ago I was an average mortal with average problems like anyone else, with nothing saying I was worthy or more able to decide people's lives. I have a shard. I am immortal. I have power. So I am God and should be worshiped?

Edited January 3, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

@Weltall and @Ookla the Prolific thank you both for clarifying :-) it is fascinating the different beliefs across the world and across time, and the links between them.

 

@Pathfinder Ahhh sorry! I did mean to tag you! Don't know how I made that mistake, so I apologies to both of you! And I agree with your point and Jasnah's, though I think if making regular sacrifices to gravity was a requirement of everyone not drifting off - or shooting off - into space, or even keeping the whole solar system functioning, I think there would probably be a group of people doing so

 

@Honorless To address your point, I often think of a line in The Colour of Magic, by Terry Pratchett who was an atheist. The Lady - a Discworld diety - is talking to Twoflower, who notes that he has never met a god before, and there are no gods where he comes from. She replies that there are gods there - everyone has gods - they just don't think that they are gods. I think that is a point very important point to keep in mind. Its difficult to talk on this subject without filtering everything through the lens of my own belief on the subject, but in essence it is very important to note that languages don't all have the same meanings - there are spheres of meaning and so what one word means in one language, when translated to another, doesn't necessarily cover the same ideas perfectly.

 

@Bliev if I may reframe the situation slightly - and I think you are right about a lot of theists, such as myself, misunderstand that perspective, I also think many atheists don't understand the Christian world view, and I say the Christian world view as that is the world view I believe I can best explain, though I know there are many denominations and many other religions which share some traits and don't share others - the issue can also be understood from this perspective:

As I understand it, in Rome, when Christianity was taking root, many Romans were afraid of Christianity because they believed the gods would punish Rome due to the reduction in worship towards them. They called Christians atheists, misconstrued the Christian greetings towards one another as Brother and Sister to mean they were incestuous, and generally thought of them - us - as a threat to their way of life. The main point to focus on, however, is the first point, the idea that a lack of worship would damage Rome, cause Rome to loose wars and suffer hardships. The Roman idea was, in essence, that a lack of worship of their gods would result in turmoil for the land. So that perspective would be like a large storm raging against the walls of a city, worship is building up a barrier to that storm, and these Christians were people who were dismantalling the wall keeping it out.

The Christian view is different: a relationship with God is fundamental to maintaining a healthy life - a personal relationship. While there are sides to this which includes God blessing righteous nations, in general a nation doesn't need to be Christian to be good or to receive blessings - though good and righteous are not the same. If I may expand on the healthy life part, and this is my own view on this - I believe we all have three bodies that occupy two worlds (one of the reasons Brandon's writing is so interesting to me is because of how closely it matches some of what I believe). Each of those bodies has organs of sensing, acting, and being. For the physical body those organs are the senses - such as eyes, ears, etc. - muscles, and the internal organs (I don't want to go too much into detail on all of these - I could go on and on for hours!). For the soul - the mind - those organs are the intellect (sensing, and covering memory, logic, etc.), the will (acting), and the emotions (being). The spirit has sensing, acting, being organs as well, and worship is the organ of acting, matching the will and the muscles of the other bodies. All of these bodies have different functions for the entire person, and need different things. The body needs food, exercise. The soul needs puzzles, beauty, etc. - which is why our bodies can be healthy but our minds can be in agony if they aren't allowed to read or work on an idea or experience a beautiful work of art. The spirit needs things to, and one of those is to maintain a healthy relationship in the three directions - towards God, towards one another, and towards the world / plants and animals / nature, etc.

From that viewpoint, worship therefore is almost impossible not to do, any more than it is impossible to stand completely still and not move, or to not use your will. You can try, but there will always be a little movement, and it is important to remember that one does need to exercise and to excerise and use ones muscles correctly, to build rather than tear down - so to with worship, the organ of acting. This is already getting a little long and is not exactly the main point of this post or the thread, but the general idea is that many Christians argue or reason or debate with atheists and with people who follow other religions because they want to help those others get into the proper relationship with God, which is important to the spirit of a person and thus to the entire person, as otherwise the spirit of that person remains dead or dying. The fact that for some Christians this is like an overwieight man - currently eating lots of food while talking - trying to get someone onto a diet they themselves haven't been keeping to is what makes me so frustrated, and makes the entire Church look hypocritical whether or not the entire Church is responsible. That is a different topic though.

On this subject, I think Jasnah sees worship more as the ritual and attitude of a follower of a religion, which is I think the main viewpoint you were going with, if I understood you.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, RShara said:

Off topic, you should probably change your nickname back, since Ookla season is over

I can't.  I made a mistake name changing.  Limit on how often you can change your name.

[Honorless he/him]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I can't.  I made a mistake name changing.  Limit on how often you can change your name.

You can message Chaos to change your name back to what it was before Ookla season

 

@Ixthos, if it comes down to personal or societal interpretation, which is what I was arguing for to begin with, that still leaves Jasnah's argument perfectly valid. 

[Karger he/him]

Just now, Honorless said:

You can message Chaos to change your name back to what it was before Ookla season

I could but that guy is seriously overworked as is.

[agrabes]

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

In this case I disagree. I believe what the person is putting forward is:

1. what must be presented for Jasnah to recant her atheism and state God exists. 

The something the person is putting forward that she is looking for, is the "if this can be shown, then I will recant and state god exists", thereby having the "gotcha!" moment of "well this shard can do that, so that shard is god, so gotcha! you have to admit god exists!". The, Jasnah is looking for "x" and since she has not found "x" then god does not exist. That if she were to discover "x", then she would admit god exists. This is ultimately pointless because as I said, Brandon has gone on record saying that question will never be answered so that theists, agnostics, and atheists can all co-exist and be right at the same time. They will never know for sure. 

 

As for the rest of what you wrote, I will put forward again what I have twice now done so. Anyone can pick up a shard. They just need the know how. So I pick up a shard. I ascend. I literally just did it. Bow down to me and worship me for I am now your god. If someone irked me on the boards, I can use my cosmic powers to destroy them. Their family should bow down to me, and say "welp, thats an act of god. god is good". Forgetting that just moments ago I was an average mortal with average problems like anyone else, with nothing saying I was worthy or more able to decide people's lives. I have a shard. I am immortal. I have power. So I am God and should be worshiped?

For your first part, I do agree with what you're saying there.  Yes, there has to be something that (to Jasnah) means X is a god, but Y is not.  I don't think we are saying she must go looking for something, but to make that decision she must have some criteria.  I do understand and agree that we will never have a situation where Jasnah's beliefs will be either fully validated or invalidated.

As for the second part, I will answer that yes you would be a god if you picked up a shard.  A "small g" god, a member of a pantheon.  No, I would not worship you, but that would not change your status as a god.  Cultivation is not all that dissimilar from Persephone or Demeter in the Greek Mythology.  No one would dispute that either of those two figures is a god.  I don't think it makes sense to say that Demeter is a god, but Cultivation is not.  

Essentially, what happened is that Sanderson had to create a loophole.  In his fictional world, gods exist.  He wants to fairly represent the opinion of an atheist in his work.  The way he did it was to create two layers of "gods."  He has the shards, which would be considered "gods" by most standards, that make physical appearances and have clear evidence of their existence.  He also has the "God Beyond" which will never be confirmed or denied.  And Jasnah, who is partially right and partially wrong in keeping with Sanderson's goals. 

 

[Ixthos Luke/Luke]

11 minutes ago, Honorless said:

You can message Chaos to change your name back to what it was before Ookla season

 

@Ixthos, if it comes down to personal or societal interpretation, which is what I was arguing for to begin with, that still leaves Jasnah's argument perfectly valid. 

Agreed. As I said, Jasnah and I are in agreement on the shards not being gods. Whether or not that means she worships anything, or will worship anything, knowingly or unknowingly, who can say, but we do agree the shards aren't gods.