Question about F-Gold

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

The quote just before thos was in response to Calderis's statement specifically. This one.

I do have the assumption that you were saying that self perception was the defining factor or Investiture healing which the your statements implied to me at least. I agree that, as we've seen Lopen regrow his arm, there is no hard time limit which. Considering you think I disagree with that, i think there was a bit of misunderstanding on both sides leading to the kind of situation where we were having two different conversations. 

It seems now to me after your clarification you were talking that the only time limit is however long it takes a person's self perception to think of the wound as part of them. If they ever accept it as part of them that is. Am I correct in that statement? I was talking about (or trying to at least) how there was more to healing than just self perception (at least in regards to external healing) such as what happened with Lightsong healing  Susebron

So I think where the confusion came in is this. Quantus (I use the older name before the ooklaness for sanity sake) and I discussed on another thread a little while back about the difference between personal healing and external healing. Quantus argued that because Rysn could not be healed by Renarin and that she said it was because it had been too long, that there was a defined time limit on external healing (if I am misrepresenting your argument quantus, I apologize in advance). This time limit (if i am relating this correctly) is separate and unique from stormlight healing. External healing alone has a defined time limit. So if you are injured, and 2 hours passed (for illustration), you cannot be healed via progression period. Regardless how you look at yourself. If you then became a radiant and inhaled stormlight, then you could heal the wound that progression could not. That is the point Quantus made earlier in the thread. I responded to that point. I think things then got convoluted from there. I do not think there is a hard time limit. I think the longer you live with a wound, the more likely you will identify it with yourself, so it will not be healed, but I do not think there is a ticking clock going by in the background. I think if Rysn has a moment where she no longer saw herself as handicapped, and asked Renarin to try healing her again, she could be successfully healed like how Lopen healed his arm with stormlight. 

Hopefully that clarified things. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Aons function the way they function because the power of the shards are shoved in the cognitive realm, where they normally do not exist. Normally the power of a shard resides in the spiritual realm. Aons, like the rest of the magic systems on Sel are location dependant. Every form of power on Sel requires some shape that mimics the land they are from. From aons, to martial arts, to dakhor, to forgery, to blood sealing, to potions. All require a base symbol because of the cognitive limitation. As Honor’s power, though the vessel is dead, resides in the spiritual realm, that is the first reason why I do not believe the way Aon’s work is applicable in the specific cirmstance we are discussing. Raoden himself says the reason for the result is because the aon did not have the correct modifiers to complete the task. Jasnah was using soulcasting to soulcast new blood. Nothing to me about soulcasting has to deal with healing. It is matter transmutation. She soulcasted the existing blood into different blood of the same type. The new blood did not have the same impurities (poison) the original blood did). Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the point you were making was that external healing has a hard time limit, while every other personal healing does not. I will take examples we have had in the book to illustrate this better

The point that I have been trying to make is that ReGrowth, specifically, has a Time Limit because the observations of the in-world users of that power have come to the conclusion that there is a Time Limit and I have yet to see a single compelling argument against it.  So far all the arguments have been repetitions of the assertion that other forms of healing dont have a Time Limit so for some reason ReGrowth cannot.  But the arguments havent yet been about that, they are just restatements about how those OTHER forms of Healing work.  My points since then have all been trying to make it clear that there are already known exceptions and/or differences, not to mention that the WOB confirming that External Healing is going to have differences.  

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Lopen is missing an arm. His arm is healed when he is able to draw in stormlight. Brandon has said the reason Lopen was able to heal his arm was due to him never accepting himself as handicap. So you are saying had Renarin gone over to Lopen to heal him with regrowth, Lopen would still have a stump, even though he never accepted himself as having a handicap because this hard time limit has already long ago passed.

Yup.

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Kaladin with his slave brands. When Kaladin heals with stormlight, his brands remain. Brandon has said the reason Kaladin is unable to heal his brands is because he sees the brands as part of who he is. The tattooing done over the brand heals immediately. You are saying had Kaladin not become a radiant to heal with stormlight, and went to Renarin for healing of the brands, because of a hard time limit, the brands would remain. Also had Kaladin waited a certain amount of time after getting the tattoo on his forehead and gone to Renarin, then the tattoo would be unable to be healed because of the hard limit time frame.

Yes.  Im saying that when you heal internally you are only limited by your Self Image, but when Regrowth is used on you by somebody else it has that limitation as well as a Time Limit.  There is also a good chance that Kaladin's brands could have been healed off in his earliest days of being a slave, before all his bridgeman experiences really solidified his new Self; I personally think they didnt become anchored until probably when he chose Not To Jump.  

FWIW, while I didnt think it was really pertinent to the point I was struggling to make, it's worth noting that the WOB posted above does confirm that when it's external BOTH people's perceptions will matter.  Which I suppose among other things means that Renarin simply thinking there is a Time Limit might easily be enough to impose one (on his use alone, anyway).

Spoiler

 

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Argent

Cosmere healing. Some magic systems have internal healing, such as Stormlight; external healing, such as AonDor. With internal ones, the perception of the magic user seems to matter a lot. Is that also a factor for the external ones?

Brandon Sanderson

So, there are various types of healing in the cosmere. We have things like Stormlight, where you get the Stormlight and it heals you, and that one is very, very influenced by your perception. How you view yourself, and what you view as being healed, has a huge influence on what actually happens to you. Externally, if someone heals someone else, like a Knight Radiant uses the power to heal someone, or an external force heals them, is it still filtered through perception? I'm gonna say both perceptions are important in that. They both are relevant.

 

 

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Rysn as a paraplegic. Dalinar said that he believes the soul adjusts to the wound. I think this is line with the earlier explanations of cosmere healing. You are going on Rysn’s statement that it has been too long since her injury. So you are saying that had Rysn been brought to Renarin shortly after falling, she would be restored, but because the hard time limit passed, she is unable to be healed. That the only way for her to now walk is for her to become a radiant, and inhale stormlight.

Pretty much.   A medically skilled Soulcaster might have a shot (Im starting to think that's closer to the Aon healing, but that's beside the point) or one of the various worldhopping solutions.  Or the ol' wildcard that is Old Magic.  

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Now as an aside, I have a follow up question. If Rysn still views herself as a paraplegic, but becomes a radiant, and inhales stormlight, are you saying she will be healed, or not? Will sh?e remain a paraplegic, or not?

Both, or I guess Neither?  I dont at all think Rysn views herself as a paraplegic (at the Spiritual Ideal level) because of the way she still tries to stand, regardless of her current outward depression.  So yes, if she were to become a Squire or Radiant, I entirely think she will live up to the Pun in her Name (ie. Rysn = Risen)

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Back to the main portion, my point is there is no hard time limit. The longer you have a wound, the greater the chance you will think of it as part of yourself, so the more likely the wound will be unable to be healed. However, if you do not accept the wound as part of yourself (Lopen), you will be healed. I take Dalinar’s statement over Rysn’s statement. You disagree. I respect that and to each their own. I will continue to respond to StanLemon because I feel he or she has misunderstood what I was trying to say, then I will leave it because it is clear to me that unless we literally see either:

1.       Renarin testing his healing with multiple people till he can confidently say “if you are wounded for two days, I cannot heal you”

2.       Rysn regain confidence in herself, and not see herself as a cripple, and Renarin then heals her.

As both are extremely specific circumstances, I do not think we will either see it on screen anytime soon, or at all. Which is why I said before to each their own. Agree to disagree.

That's fair, I agree that is where we are, and new information is likely the only think to shake the topic loose.  For what it's worth, #1 is precisely what I thought we saw in OB, which is why Im putting so much weight on their conclusions.  There's also that third possibility you described above: Rysn becomes Radiant and either Heals herself with Stormlight (confirming the Time Limit) or doesnt (confirming that Crippled is part of her Self Image).  

 

It took us a while wade through the tangle, but I think we got there.  Im glad we managed to understand each other, and I look forward to revisiting this with you if or when we get more data to chew on.  

Edited December 17, 2019 by Ookla the Ingeniator

[Pathfinder]

32 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

The point that I have been trying to make is that ReGrowth, specifically, has a Time Limit because the observations of the in-world users of that power have come to the conclusion that there is a Time Limit and I have yet to see a single compelling argument against it.  So far all the arguments have been repetitions of the assertion that other forms of healing dont have a Time Limit so for some reason ReGrowth cannot.  But the arguments havent yet been about that, they are just restatements about how those OTHER forms of Healing work.  My points since then have all been trying to make it clear that there are already known exceptions and/or differences, not to mention that the WOB confirming that External Healing is going to have differences.  

Lol (laughing because of how this all got so confusing, not laughing at what you wrote). That is why I said I did not see aon healing as pertinent to the time limit discussion. None of the instances it was used in the book, or mentioned in the WoB is the kind of information that would give us an indication whether it has a time limit or not. So it would not be applicable in discussing whether there is a time limit or not. 

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Yup.

Yes.  Im saying that when you heal internally you are only limited by your Self Image, but when Regrowth is used on you by somebody else it has that limitation as well as a Time Limit.  There is also a good chance that Kaladin's brands could have been healed off in his earliest days of being a slave, before all his bridgeman experiences really solidified his new Self; I personally think they didnt become anchored until probably when he chose Not To Jump.  

FWIW, while I didnt think it was really pertinent to the point I was struggling to make, it's worth noting that the WOB posted above does confirm that when it's external BOTH people's perceptions will matter.  Which I suppose among other things means that Renarin simply thinking there is a Time Limit might easily be enough to impose one (on his use alone, anyway).

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Glad we confirmed I understand your theory/perspective. One thing to add to this (and I completely acknowledge this is subjective) is that I do not think Renarin thinks there is a time limit. Like I said I am still going on what Dalinar said before. That when the soul adjusts to the wound over time, it will not be healed. That is what I think the premise Renarin is operating on. You disagree for the reason you put below, which I will reply to further down. Not writing this to further argue the point. Just that I understand and acknowledge your view, and I still have my own. 

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Pretty much.   A medically skilled Soulcaster might have a shot (Im starting to think that's closer to the Aon healing, but that's beside the point) or one of the various worldhopping solutions.  Or the ol' wildcard that is Old Magic.  

Totally respect and get your view regarding soulcasting. Personally as I mentioned earlier I do not see anything healing regarding soulcasting. It was no different to me than taking 100 year old merlot with dirt in it, and soulcasting it to merlot without dirt in it. The merlot is no longer 100 years old, because you transformed it into new merlot without dirt. 

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Both, or I guess Neither?  I dont at all think Rysn views herself as a paraplegic (at the Spiritual Ideal level) because of the way she still tries to stand, regardless of her current outward depression.  So yes, if she were to become a Squire or Radiant, I entirely think she will live up to the Pun in her Name (ie. Rysn = Risen)

Which is another point we disagree on which is why we agree to disagree. I see what is holding Rysn back is her being ashamed of being a cripple. That that is the reason she cannot travel. She sees herself as useless due to her disability. If what I said is true, then that would be enough in my mind to prevent healing. I acknowledge you view her quandary differently 

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That's fair, I agree that is where we are, and new information is likely the only think to shake the topic loose.  For what it's worth, #1 is precisely what I thought we saw in OB, which is why Im putting so much weight on their conclusions.  There's also that third possibility you described above: Rysn becomes Radiant and either Heals herself with Stormlight (confirming the Time Limit) or doesnt (confirming that Crippled is part of her Self Image).  

I understand, but I view about Rysn and Renarin, as a doctor coming in and saying he cannot provide a blood transfusion to someone because the blood type they have would be harmful to the person. The layperson then turns around to a family member and says they cannot transfuse because the blood is bad for them. I give less credence to what Rysn said, over what Dalinar said. You think something happened in the background in that time frame, and thereby give Rysn more credence than Dalinar. And that is ok. We just disagree. That's all. (the example I gave was not to be dismissive of your view. Just finding an analogy to convey. That was my intention with the rain, and I am sorry if I offended you with it)

Thing is unfortunately I do not think even option 3 would resolve things. Lets say Rysn, bonds a spren and heals with stormlight. Depending on how she bonded, I could point to the bonding as showing she grew as a person and moved past her disability, which is why she was able to heal with stormlight. Which from my perspective would not prove the time limit, while from your perspective it would. Unfortunately I really do feel the only way to bury this hatchet is if Renarin said "Storms! You were wounded 21 minutes ago! I cannot heal you now!" or Rysn rolls up to Renarin "Hey kid, I am feeling extra good about myself today. Heal me!" Renarin heals, Rysn jumps up and does a jig. (wrote it that way for humor, not mocking)

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It took us a while wade through the tangle, but I think we got there.  Im glad we managed to understand each other, and I look forward to revisiting this with you if or when we get more data to chew on.  

Same here. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Lol (laughing because of how this all got so confusing, not laughing at what you wrote). That is why I said I did not see aon healing as pertinent to the time limit discussion. None of the instances it was used in the book, or mentioned in the WoB is the kind of information that would give us an indication whether it has a time limit or not. So it would not be applicable in discussing whether there is a time limit or not. 

Agreed. At the time I thought it was pertinent because it seemed like the argument you and Karger were making was that ALL Cosmere healing worked by the exact same Spiritual Ideal mechanism as Self-Healing thus there could be no additional limitations.  I was desperately trying to show that there was indeed Healing variations in the Cosmere, to show that it was possible for ReGrowth to have additional limits or factors.  It's definitely a bad comparison in nearly all ways (Cognitive Dor, a System that arose post-shard shattering, etc) but it was the only other form of healing that wasnt Internal, and I think that is a key distinction pretty much everywhere in the Cosmere systems.

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Glad we confirmed I understand your theory/perspective. One thing to add to this (and I completely acknowledge this is subjective) is that I do not think Renarin thinks there is a time limit. Like I said I am still going on what Dalinar said before. That when the soul adjusts to the wound over time, it will not be healed. That is what I think the premise Renarin is operating on. You disagree for the reason you put below, which I will reply to further down. Not writing this to further argue the point. Just that I understand and acknowledge your view, and I still have my own. 

I was pretty sure that it was Renarin who had told Dalinar there was a limit, as well as Renarin himself who told Rysn the same, so I was giving it the weight of a First-hand account rather than a tangential supposition (Ie Dalinar's guesses).  But I dont have the books with me to check for actual quotes.  

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Totally respect and get your view regarding soulcasting. Personally as I mentioned earlier I do not see anything healing regarding soulcasting. It was no different to me than taking 100 year old merlot with dirt in it, and soulcasting it to merlot without dirt in it. The merlot is no longer 100 years old, because you transformed it into new merlot without dirt. 

 

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Which is another point we disagree on which is why we agree to disagree. I see what is holding Rysn back is her being ashamed of being a cripple. That that is the reason she cannot travel. She sees herself as useless due to her disability. If what I said is true, then that would be enough in my mind to prevent healing. I acknowledge you view her quandary differently 

I understand, but I view about Rysn and Renarin, as a doctor coming in and saying he cannot provide a blood transfusion to someone because the blood type they have would be harmful to the person. The layperson then turns around to a family member and says they cannot transfuse because the blood is bad for them. I give less credence to what Rysn said, over what Dalinar said. You think something happened in the background in that time frame, and thereby give Rysn more credence than Dalinar. And that is ok. We just disagree. That's all. (the example I gave was not to be dismissive of your view. Just finding an analogy to convey. That was my intention with the rain, and I am sorry if I offended you with it)

I think this is really where we were disagreeing. You put more weight on what Dalinar said (I think because he was the one that said it to the Readers?)  I was putting more weight on Renarin's opinion which should be first hand, as well as my own observations of Rysn still instinctively trying to stand (which is the biggest sticking point).  You could be right, Renarin could be letting Dalinar's guesses misinform him and his patients, or even actively limit him, and maybe the Time limit is just a misinterpretation of their evidence.  

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Thing is unfortunately I do not think even option 3 would resolve things. Lets say Rysn, bonds a spren and heals with stormlight. Depending on how she bonded, I could point to the bonding as showing she grew as a person and moved past her disability, which is why she was able to heal with stormlight. Which from my perspective would not prove the time limit, while from your perspective it would. Unfortunately I really do feel the only way to bury this hatchet is if Renarin said "Storms! You were wounded 21 minutes ago! I cannot heal you now!" or Rysn rolls up to Renarin "Hey kid, I am feeling extra good about myself today. Heal me!" Renarin heals, Rysn jumps up and does a jig. (wrote it that way for humor, not mocking)

Well, I see that as more of a fringe possibility, but you do make a good point.  Your counter-argument will be a lot stronger if she ends up bonding a Spren herself vs a becoming a Squire, Id say, just because it takes less personal growth to accomplish.  If she were to find herself spending time with a radiant and unexpectedly started glowing as a Squire, I doubt that would come with as the significant sort of Growth/Change so Id see that as reasonable evidence.   

As a general statement I dont personally think the Self-Image changes as often or easily as you describe, where peoples self image can change and then changes back with the ups and downs of depression, but time will tell.  Self-Image and Self-Esteem are wildly different things, to my mind.  

[Pathfinder]

51 minutes ago, Ookla the Ingeniator said:

I was pretty sure that it was Renarin who had told Dalinar there was a limit, as well as Renarin himself who told Rysn the same, so I was giving it the weight of a First-hand account rather than a tangential supposition (Ie Dalinar's guesses).  But I dont have the books with me to check for actual quotes.  

I think this is really where we were disagreeing. You put more weight on what Dalinar said (I think because he was the one that said it to the Readers?)  I was putting more weight on Renarin's opinion which should be first hand, as well as my own observations of Rysn still instinctively trying to stand (which is the biggest sticking point).  You could be right, Renarin could be letting Dalinar's guesses misinform him and his patients, or even actively limit him, and maybe the Time limit is just a misinterpretation of their evidence.  

We never actually hear it from Renarin's mouth. The first is Dalinar when he is in Thaylenah. He realizes he should have brought Renarin to help with the wounded to begin with and explains that there may be some Renarin cannot heal because the soul gets used to the wound, like what Dalinar did (his words, I quoted it earlier in this thread). Then much later, Rysn's babsk shows up. He asks her why not get healed by the radiant and she says bitterly back its because its been too long. Here is the quote:

 

"Have you tried that Radiant who-"

"Yes. He can't heal my legs. It's been too long since my accident, which is appropriate. This is my consequence - payment for a contract I entered into willingly the moment I climbed down the side of that greatshell"

 

She does not even specify that it was Renarin that said it. So we have two "testimonies" if you will.

One is Dalinar. I believe what he says because he is referring to healing Renarin has already done at Urithiru, and to me sounds knowledgeable. The other is Rysn. I believe her response is colored by her own understanding and ignorance. She feels this is what she deserves.  

You conversely feel Dalinar is going on old information and is assuming something based on his own experiences that does not include healing, so is unreliable. You believe Rysn because you believe there was healing done on those people in Thaylenah, causing Renarin to realize the numerical time limit, and thereby told Rysn her time limit ran out and she cannot be healed. 

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Well, I see that as more of a fringe possibility, but you do make a good point.  Your counter-argument will be a lot stronger if she ends up bonding a Spren herself vs a becoming a Squire, Id say, just because it takes less personal growth to accomplish.  If she were to find herself spending time with a radiant and unexpectedly started glowing as a Squire, I doubt that would come with as the significant sort of Growth/Change so Id see that as reasonable evidence. 

Again, it would depend (in my opinion) on how the character acted about their disability. If Rysn still carried on the same way, then yes I would agree her healing with stormlight would be evidence. But I think even squiredom requires a level of self examination and growth (see Hobbler) that if Rysn showed, would be the reason for the healing, and would not validate the time limit. But given such growth would be subjective (see our disagreement on her view on her disability for example), it would be difficult to conclusively say between us. Which is why I presented two such extreme circumstances. 

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As a general statement I dont personally think the Self-Image changes as often or easily as you describe, where peoples self image can change and then changes back with the ups and downs of depression, but time will tell.  Self-Image and Self-Esteem are wildly different things, to my mind.  

I do not feel I am saying it can be so easily changed. Otherwise anyone would do it. But I do think it is possible. Now whether I think Brandon will ever have Rysn healed (either via progression or stormlight) I do not know. People have made great arguments for her remaining disabled, and great arguments for her healing. So that for me is a RAFO.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Pathfinder