Is Odium two shards?

[Atras]

We know that there are 16 shards in total, and we know that Odium has killed 4 of them (Ambition, Honor, Devotion, and Dominion).  Devotion and Dominion have been left in the Cognitive Realm, and are the force of Dor . We know that Odium battled Ambition in the Threnodite system, and that Ambition was fatally wounded.  We know Odium doesn't want to take up Honor's shard because taking on a Shard can change you (I can't find the reference for this, I think it was a WOB in the Skyward tour).  I suspect that Odium is actually the power of at least 2 shards, possibly Hate and Ambition.  Are there strong thoughts for or against this theory of mine?

[Weltall]

In addition to what @Quantus provided there's also this WoB (trimmed):

Quote

Billy Todd, Moderator

Has he always ever been Odium since the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

 

[Quantus he/him]

No, he is not.  We know from WOB that he specifically does not want to take up any additional shards, even when he has the opportunuity, because taking up a knew shard would add a new (and possibly conflicting) Intent that would Change him, which he does not want.

 

 

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WinespringBrother

Given that Shards, and perhaps, Ascended beings, have intents similar to their names...

Brandon Sanderson

More that they have names similar to their intents.

WinespringBrother

So, would Unity be a natural enemy of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... Possibly. You say "natural," and so I--

WinespringBrother

Well, would one eliminate the other one? But more towards Autonomy trying to break up--

Brandon Sanderson

To break up Unity. It's so hard to say, because Autonomy is a bit of a strange duck. Like, what counts as being Autonomous? Is absorbing everything and becoming one again Autonomous or not? That's kind of your question that you get into. And the way Autonomy looks at it right now, is no. Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else. And Autonomy would think the Shards are better on their own. But is this a natural effect, or part of the-- Does that make sense?

WinespringBrother

Well, but it's also along the lines of, Odium wants to break up the other ones, so they don't--

Brandon Sanderson

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

 

[Honorless he/him]

Welcome to the Shard @Atras!

No, as the others said, Rayse is the original Yolish holder of Odium.

I think that if what you were wondering was whether Odium could be split into two Shards (like a reverse Harmony) then yeah, that could happen

[Elegy he/him]

5 minutes ago, The traveller said:

Yes but I always thought that it would always be 16. There were more people present there than 16. We know of two more atleast. I somehow thought that any of the shards can splinter into chunks but none of those chunks would be a shard 

You are right that there seem to have been more people present at the Shattering, but there's also this WOB:

Quote

James Furr

If, instead of the 16, there had been 20 members at the Shattering of Adonalsium (with the same level of involvedness)...could it have Shattered into 20 pieces?

Brandon Sanderson

It's quite possible that a different number could have ended up working.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

And this WOB which implies that it would have been possible to split Ruin in two:

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XMikethetrikeX

If Ruin had split into 2 shards, would one, zero, or both of those shards have been capable of making atium? Does this change depending on how it splits?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily. And it would change depending on how things split.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 19, 2018)

And there's also Splinters like the Stormfather which work as further divisions of Shards, so yep, Shards could be split in a pretty much infinite number of ways.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Elegy
typing error

[Honorless he/him]

Oof Ninja'd

But there is something I'd have added: Hoid was there and he rejected taking up a Shard.

[Atras]

Thanks everyone! I hadn't seen the WOB that Weltall had posted about Odium always having been Odium.  That shoots a pretty large hole in the theory.  I appreciate the insight everyone, thanks!

[Honorless he/him]

You're welcome, @Atras!

Hope to see you around on the forums

[Aon Tia she/her]

5 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I think that if what you were wondering was whether Odium could be split into two Shards (like a reverse Harmony) then yeah, that could happen

So their could have been 32 shards? Instead of 16? 

[Honorless he/him]

Maybe? We don't know the circumstances of the Shattering enough though. But the number of people involved might've played as much of a role as Adonalsium's own nature.

We do have a WoB that confirms that if the circumstances were different there could have been a different 16

[Aon Tia she/her]

Yes but I always thought that it would always be 16. There were more people present there than 16. We know of two more atleast. I somehow thought that any of the shards can splinter into chunks but none of those chunks would be a shard 

[Aon Tia she/her]

@Elegy thanx. 

it also mean then that unity may indeed be a shard but not necessarily a reinterpretation of honor

[Elegy he/him]

42 minutes ago, The traveller said:

@Elegy thanx. 

it also mean then that unity may indeed be a shard but not necessarily a reinterpretation of honor

That's a good point. I read a theory on the forums once (can't find it right now) that Unity might be a part of Honor, more specifically the one that the Bondsmiths represent. So Protection for Windrunners and Justice for Skybreakers etc might be other names for semi-Shards of Honor. I've been kinda obsessed with that thought ever since then. Long story short: I agree!

[Aon Tia she/her]

@Elegy yes I agree 

but really I don’t want their to be 10 mini- shards of honor. I have read that post too but I am not a big fan of it. Sounds too complicated... 

however, honor splitting into 2 mini shards, is the maximum I want to go into it. Have no good reason to think this but I just do. 

[Elegy he/him]

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

but really I don’t want their to be 10 mini- shards of honor.

As I see it, it's more likely there being 5 sub-Shards of Honor represented in the Orders rather than 10, since the other 5 Orders seem to be closer to Cultivation in terms of mind-set. The theme of creativity going on with the Lightweavers doesn't have much to do with Honor, neither has the Dustbringer's theme of destruction - all the while they fit rather well with Cultivation, overcoming/destroying old things and letting them grow into new things (which calls for creativity). I definitely agree that 10 sub-Shards would be too many.

More closely related to the original post, that also makes me wonder whether the Unamde represent different "sub-Intents" of Odium, like Nergaoul as the Thrill being closer to the "ecastasy" side of Odium than, say, Yelig-nar. (Edit: I don't necessarily mean that every Unmade would have its own Shardic name, but rather them having certain tendencies mirroring different shades of what Odium's Intent encompasses.)

Edited October 17, 2019 by Elegy

[Aon Tia she/her]

7 hours ago, Elegy said:

As I see it, it's more likely there being 5 sub-Shards of Honor represented in the Orders rather than 10, since the other 5 Orders seem to be closer to Cultivation in terms of mind-set. The theme of creativity going on with the Lightweavers doesn't have much to do with Honor, neither has the Dustbringer's theme of destruction - all the while they fit rather well with Cultivation, overcoming/destroying old things and letting them grow into new things (which calls for creativity). I definitely agree that 10 sub-Shards would be too many.

More closely related to the original post, that also makes me wonder whether the Unamde represent different "sub-Intents" of Odium, like Nergaoul as the Thrill being closer to the "ecastasy" side of Odium than, say, Yelig-nar. (Edit: I don't necessarily mean that every Unmade would have its own Shardic name, but rather them having certain tendencies mirroring different shades of what Odium's Intent encompasses.)

I agree about the possibility of 5 sub-shards of honor, I wanted to say that but then I went to sleep 

mans I agree that unmades and their area of interest seems to align somewhat with the various passions dalinar saw odium comprises of. 

Thrill- nergoul , gluttony, greed - ashertmam

there is someone asking for sorrow from Moash which could be another unmade may be black fisher. 

[Inky]

On 10/17/2019 at 4:40 PM, Elegy said:

The theme of creativity going on with the Lightweavers doesn't have much to do with Honor, neither has the Dustbringer's theme of destructio

Dustbringers have little to do with destruction beyond their Surges - hell, Isaac has said that their entire thing is learning to deal with responsibility. They seem like bodyguards to be entirely honest, especially considering their Divine Attributes are "Brave/Obedient". I don't think the powers match up with the ideology of the Orders too much. Like, what's particularly Justice-y about manipulating gravity and chemical reactions?