The strength of double pewter

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

I’ll start off with a bold statement. The strength of double pewter is not compounding. The reason for this is because unlike most feruchemical traits strength does have an upper limit how much muscle can fit on the frame of your skeleton.

The strength of double pewter is just that the powers work great together much like a-steel and f-iron. F-pewter physically gives you more muscle mass and a-pewter makes every fiber of muscle stronger. With both you have an impossibly large number of muscle fibers that are each impossibly strong.

Is there any flaw in my reasoning? And for those that are wondering, pun intended.

[Quantus he/him]

Agreed.  Dont get me wrong, compounding is still a key part of the equations so they dont have to spend time weakened to recharge, but F-Pewter's mechanism to self-limit is a bit more absolute since it's an unavoidable mechanical limit.  using the two in compbination does indeed seem to maximize the capabilitites of both, and the upper limits of the combo will really come down to the size/limits of compounder's skeletal frame.  

[Calderis he/him]

Allomantic pewter seems to give a set output regardless of the size if the person. 

There are multiple comments in Era one about how Vin is so ridiculously strong with pewter because she's so small and all of the strength is compressed into a smaller package. 

It's very possible that increasing the muscle mass of a person is going to distribute that output over a larger area and give a lower output. 

In conjuction with feruchemical pewter, it's still going to be a gain over anyone with a single bit, but I think your going to get diminishing returns on the allomantic side. 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Calderis

[Dancer]

You can still store A-Pewter in a pewter mind. This strength comes without the side effect of increased muscles. Then you can compound that.   

[Calderis he/him]

3 hours ago, Dancer said:

You can still store A-Pewter in a pewter mind. This strength comes without the side effect of increased muscles. Then you can compound that.   

I'm not sure that's the case at all. It would let you store strength further because it's supporting you... But allomantic pewter strength and feruchemical pewter aren't the same thing. 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

If normal compounding is the better and easier option, then it can't be as simple as "store allomantic strength, compound, win" because one extra step is hardly difficult. 

Whether it's from compounding or normal storage, the trait that gets stored is the same... Because that's what Feruchemical pewter is meant to store. 

You're not going to get stronger muscles or balance or speed out of a metalmind because that's not what Feruchemical pewter does. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by Calderis

[Dancer]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

 

Whether it's from compounding or normal storage, the trait that gets stored is the same... Because that's what Feruchemical pewter is meant to store. 

 

You can store bronze sense in a tinmind so there should be no difference with pewter. What ever investiture enhancements you get should be able to be stored just like tin. Its the same with allomancy. When you burn a pwetermind filled with F-pewter strength you don't somehow get A-pewter strength instead. this should also hold in the reverse. if you fill a metalmind with A-strength you shouldn't somehow get F-strength instead. 

[Calderis he/him]

40 minutes ago, Dancer said:

You can store bronze sense in a tinmind so there should be no difference with pewter. What ever investiture enhancements you get should be able to be stored just like tin. Its the same with allomancy. When you burn a pwetermind filled with F-pewter strength you don't somehow get A-pewter strength instead. this should also hold in the reverse. if you fill a metalmind with A-strength you shouldn't somehow get F-strength instead. 

Your missing the point. Allomantic pewter doesn't just grant "strength." 

F-pewter is not going to store the entirety of A-pewter. You can store the strength that A-pewter gives... Which isn't the speed, or toughness, or healing speed, or pain tolerance, or balance, or dexterity, or agility, or or or. 

"strength" is a fraction of what A-pewter grants. And unlike tin storing Bronze, the rest is not a "sense" equivalent. It would be stored under a split of other metals. And I still don't believe it would work as you want, because that's not what pewter stores.

Edit: additionally, in the bronze example, I highly doubt your going to be able to store bronze in tin and then be able to tap it and just sense the pulses without actually burning bronze. I think it's far more likely that you'd burn bronze and store, and then later burn bronze and tap and have the sense highly enhanced. 

Edited September 22, 2019 by Calderis

[Dancer]

I never assumed that F-pewter would store the entirety of A-pweter. I only said that you could store the strength given by A-pewter in a pewter mind. This strength would circumvent the muscle limitation of F-pewter.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's very possible that increasing the muscle mass of a person is going to distribute that output over a larger area and give a lower output. 

In conjuction with feruchemical pewter, it's still going to be a gain over anyone with a single bit, but I think your going to get diminishing returns on the allomantic side. 

Increased body mass and the ability to vary it can be an advantage in battle.

[HSuperLee he/him]

I'd argue compounding strength messes with the normal effects of F-pewter. I imagine if F-pewter always increased you muscle mass to hulk levels, then eventually a feruchemist would have recognized what Rashek was doing, and have told others about it. After all, its kind of hard to miss the being you regard as a god suddenly swelling to Koloss proportions.

[Calderis he/him]

6 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

I'd argue compounding strength messes with the normal effects of F-pewter. I imagine if F-pewter always increased you muscle mass to hulk levels, then eventually a feruchemist would have recognized what Rashek was doing, and have told others about it. After all, its kind of hard to miss the being you regard as a god suddenly swelling to Koloss proportions.

With all of his other powers that aren't visible, I'm really not sure why he'd ever need feruchemical pewter. 

A-pewter and F-steel alone should win absolutely everything anyone threw at him. 

[+robardin he/him]

On 9/22/2019 at 4:19 PM, HSuperLee said:

I imagine if F-pewter always increased you muscle mass to hulk levels, then eventually a feruchemist would have recognized what Rashek was doing, and have told others about it. After all, its kind of hard to miss the being you regard as a god suddenly swelling to Koloss proportions.

So you're saying a Keeper could have realized TLR as a fellow Feruchemist if he Hulked out, as Sazed himself did while fighting koloss in defense of Elendel? They'd be familiar with the effect of tapping a pewtermind at a high multiplier, so even if they didn't realize that he was Compounding pewter for nigh-infinite metalminds, recognizing "hey, this is Feruchemy, isn't it?" should come to mind.

In that case, his spectacular display in the "Square of the Survivor" should have been a tell for any Feruchemist who saw or heard of it (like Sazed). The ability to heal up immediately upon removing spears from one's body is not one granted by any level of A-pewter, but would be recognized as possible with a goldmind. Or going further back in history, given the stories of his invulnerability, surviving burning, flaying, or even beheading, that could have been a pretty big tell for any Feruchemist. "He's God, based on that? Pfft, I could do that too, if only I had like decades of time to store health first in a big enough goldmind -- oohhhhhh...."

To explain this canonically, I'd surmise that centuries of Ministry religious doctrine about TLR being God and attributing his invulnerability to divinity would seem pretty convincing, as would any tapping of a zincmind for speed of thought ("he's divinely intelligent!" - I bet his ability to discern lies from physical tells was from tapping zinc rather than some kind of subtle mastery of powerful Allomancy, despite what Kar said).

Plus, given his longstanding apparent hatred for the Terris and the break in continuity of the community of Feruchemists due to the mass transformation into mistwraiths, thinking that TLR himself might be a Terris Feruchemist was very, very hard for them to conceive of. Much more easy to accept his own account as having gained divine powers that exhibited themselves as having infinite Feruchemical attributes (without being a Feruchemist), because that certainly seems impossibly godlike, doesn't it?

But hey, TLR was obviously the most powerful Allomancer in the world, once you consider his powers could be Feruchemical in any way, might someone not think of Compounding? Not really; that's only easy in retrospect. The mechanics of Compounding was first realized by Sazed when Vin explained that TLR = Rashek = Feruchemist from Alendi's log book before becoming Mistborn while Ascended. It was then relatively easy for him, as a Keeper educated in the theory of Metallic Arts, to sit there and say, "so, if he was both, he must have been able to burn metalminds to gain net-positive Feruchemy!" as an after-the-fact explanation for his powers. But without a practical example in front of him, there really was no way even for an expert in such matters to realize that would be the resulting effect, as it'd never been possible. For all they knew, burning a metalmind might simply give you the Allomantic effect and you lose the Feruchemical store.

[HSuperLee he/him]

@robardin I think most of what you just said is reasonable, however I think you're overestimating how obvious other feruchemical powers are. I remember when I first read about TLR getting stabbed, my thought wasn't "Oh, he's healing." My reaction was, "Oh frick, he can't be damaged." It didn't even occur to me that he was healing until the scene was over. Basically, I didn't see it as feruchemy, I saw it as him being superhuman with some kind of protection from harm. And I think that works for almost all physical abilities, as normally you can't tell when someone is using feruchemy. The two exceptions are iron and pewter. Iron because changing weight is rather unique, and pewter because of the growth. Specifically with f-pewter, if you see someone grow in muscle mass right before they move something heavy, you'd think, "Oh, so he's not always that strong. But wait, why would God not always be at his full strength?" Which leads you to the feruchemical conclusion, if you know feruchemy is a thing.

I'm also trying to remember, did we ever see anyone tap pewter from the Bands of Mourning? Because I definitely don't remember anyone tearing their clothing, and that would support what I'm saying.

[+robardin he/him]

4 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

@robardin I think most of what you just said is reasonable, however I think you're overestimating how obvious other feruchemical powers are. I remember when I first read about TLR getting stabbed, my thought wasn't "Oh, he's healing." My reaction was, "Oh frick, he can't be damaged." It didn't even occur to me that he was healing until the scene was over. Basically, I didn't see it as feruchemy, I saw it as him being superhuman with some kind of protection from harm.

Yeah, that's what I concluded at the end, too.

That was all in reply to the comment that "eventually a Feruchemist would realize what Rashek was doing", which is to say, well yes, and no.

A Feruchemist could have seen what happened and said, "hey, I could do that if only I had an infinite goldmind", that's far from saying a Keeper should then be expected to infer that TLR was in fact in possession of an infinite goldmind generated by a compounding effect of combining Allomancy and Feruchemy. But it would be unreasonable, because the very idea of what what happen if someone combined the powers was completely unknown and speculative. And Rashek had engineered a generational break in Feruchemy existing among mortals, giving him the opportunity to mess with people's concepts of what was possible with it versus what he could do and why.

[Rorzikel]

It’s not important that he has recognizable powers, just the level of them to be considered divine. Rashek was able to Soothe a million people in Kredik Shaw, but even though the power is common enough amongst allomancers, the scale is shocking to Vin. Same with Feruchemy, if you see your own powers used without limit that will appear just as godlike not necessarily less.

[foil4me]

On 9/22/2019 at 2:19 PM, HSuperLee said:

I'd argue compounding strength messes with the normal effects of F-pewter. I imagine if F-pewter always increased you muscle mass to hulk levels, then eventually a feruchemist would have recognized what Rashek was doing, and have told others about it. After all, its kind of hard to miss the being you regard as a god suddenly swelling to Koloss proportions.

Hey, remember that bit where the lord ruler tried to eradicate the keepers? It was to keep them from A: breeding with Allomancers. And B: discover his use of Feruchemy, like u said they might

 

also i loved what someone said before about F pewter increasing amount of muscle strands, and A pewter increasing the strength of the muscle strand

alendi mentions the feruchemists doing stuff like moving boulders, and we see Sazed do crazy things in his fight with the Koloss. Now add A pewter to that giant, it might not add a whole ton of extra strength seeing as how A pewter adds a definitive amount of strength. But imagine negating the sluggishness we see in Sazed, and increased endurance! And agility! 
 

so no, maybe not the Hulk, but throwing cars would be no problem, and their increased skin strength and added muscle weight would make them a b*tch to take down for any Allomancers, be they a Pewterarm or a coinshot