How did humans use Surgebinding to destroy Ashyn?

[SpiritualYogiNerd]

In OB we learn that the Radiants abandoned their oaths in the recreance when they learned that the use of surgebinding led to the destruction of their original planet Ashyn. I was kind of wondering what kind of use of surgebinding could wreak such devastation as to make a planet uninhabitable? I mean it would need to be something like a full fledged nuclear war. The only candidate seems to be the surge of division which we haven't seen used yet in the books. Love to hear your ideas on this.

 

[Ripheus23]

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Spoiler

Whatever the destruction was, it seems to have left the remainder on Ashyn holed up mostly in floating cities. This floating is supposed to be because of a disease that grants the power (with a future plot revolving around a "cure" for the disease, which "cure" therefore threatens the floating of the cities...). 

So my guess is that something happened to gravity on Ashyn. Like planet-wide Lashing, maybe. And I think the Dawnshards were Spiritual analogues of the Oathgates (transit via the Spiritual Realm instead of Shadesmar), but their power requirements/side-effects were destructive. So maybe the Dawnshards messed up the gravity of Ashyn by using Lashing to massively bend spacetime, or some such wild thing...

[Scion of the Mists]

We don't know.  Have you seen the Silence Divine reading from Brandon?  I imagine we'll find out more as The Stormlight Archive progresses.  

As for which Surge, a lot of the less obviously combat-oriented Surges actually have very destructive potential.  Illumination, for example, can produce waves of any sort (e.g. lasers, gamma/x-rays, microwave, etc.) that can cause a lot of damage.  Sound waves (i.e. vibrations) can also cause tremendous damage (see the Tacoma Narrows incident).  

Messing around with the planet's gravitation or structural integrity somehow (maybe Transformation, Tension, or Adhesion) could also cause catastrophic events.  

[Elsecaller_17.5]

Wait, my understanding was they abandoned their oaths because the found out that the listeners were native to Roshar and they were invaders (a subtle, but important, difference).

[+Child of Hodor]

TL;DR they had a different way of accessing magic on Ashyn unrelated to KR and spren. 

Before the humans came to Roshar (the planet) they were on Ashyn. The 10 surges represent 10 fundamental forces (Gravity, Light etc.) that can be manipulated via magic in the Rosharan System (Roshar, Ashyn Braize +10 gas giants).

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/81/#e5238

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/74/#e9725

The way to access these powers was different on Ashyn than the way humans are doing it on Roshar.  Silence Divine spoilers:

Spoiler

Brandon plans for Ashyn to have a magic system where it is accessed through contracting diseases. He wasn't happy with it and had been tweaking it. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/201/#e9745

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12681

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/380/#e12797

 

 

[Wandering Investor]

My best guess is that the perfect gems are actually the dawnshards, and after a long time of storing up energy, someone used one of them to do some crazy stuff. Several of the surges could destroy a planet's surface if you gave them some stupid crazy level of juice. Although technically I don't think it was surgebinding, that particular form of magic didn't come till later.

25 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Wait, my understanding was they abandoned their oaths because the found out that the listeners were native to Roshar and they were invaders (a subtle, but important, difference).

He's discussing Ashyn, not the Recreance which occured on Roshar. 

[Firebolt-101]

25 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Wait, my understanding was they abandoned their oaths because the found out that the listeners were native to Roshar and they were invaders (a subtle, but important, difference).

I was thinking the same thing. And in that case, it's possible it wasn't surgebinding at all that destroyed Ashyn! (Bear with me, I'm new to the cosmere- all caught up in SA but just finished the first of Mistborn)

Think about it, we know the listeners are native to Roshar, that they took the humans in as refugees, but we don't know exactly what else is native there. What if the spren that appear on Roshar are native or unique to Roshar and weren't present on Ashyn? Then it's a magic system independent to Ashyn that destroyed it, the humans magic.

 

[Inky]

1 hour ago, Firebolt-101 said:

I was thinking the same thing. And in that case, it's possible it wasn't surgebinding at all that destroyed Ashyn! (Bear with me, I'm new to the cosmere- all caught up in SA but just finished the first of Mistborn)

Think about it, we know the listeners are native to Roshar, that they took the humans in as refugees, but we don't know exactly what else is native there. What if the spren that appear on Roshar are native or unique to Roshar and weren't present on Ashyn? Then it's a magic system independent to Ashyn that destroyed it, the humans magic.

 

That's exactly what happened

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Firebolt-101 said:

I was thinking the same thing. And in that case, it's possible it wasn't surgebinding at all that destroyed Ashyn! (Bear with me, I'm new to the cosmere- all caught up in SA but just finished the first of Mistborn)

Think about it, we know the listeners are native to Roshar, that they took the humans in as refugees, but we don't know exactly what else is native there. What if the spren that appear on Roshar are native or unique to Roshar and weren't present on Ashyn? Then it's a magic system independent to Ashyn that destroyed it, the humans magic.

While the exact way that Ashyn's magic worked then and works now is not the same as Surgebinding on Roshar the fundamentals of all magic in the greater Rosharan System share the same principles, due to the natural 'pathways' magic there follows because that's how Adonalsium set things up either by intentional design or by natural consequence of everything else that was done to create the system... if those aren't two sides of the same coin.

So yes, while it wasn't Surgebinding as we understand it now, it was still manipulating the same forces that Surgebinding does. Most obviously, they have some equivalent to the Surge of Gravitation which is what keeps their cities aloft.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

4 hours ago, Wandering Investor said:

He's discussing Ashyn, not the Recreance which occured on Roshar. 

Pretty sure he mentioned the Recreance.

7 hours ago, SpiritualYogiNerd said:

 

In OB we learn that the Radiants abandoned their oaths in the recreance when they learned that the use of surgebinding led to the destruction of their original planet Ashyn.

 

 

[Firebolt-101]

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

While the exact way that Ashyn's magic worked then and works now is not the same as Surgebinding on Roshar the fundamentals of all magic in the greater Rosharan System share the same principles, due to the natural 'pathways' magic there follows because that's how Adonalsium set things up either by intentional design or by natural consequence of everything else that was done to create the system... if those aren't two sides of the same coin.

So yes, while it wasn't Surgebinding as we understand it now, it was still manipulating the same forces that Surgebinding does. Most obviously, they have some equivalent to the Surge of Gravitation which is what keeps their cities aloft.

Ah! Okay, that makes sense! Thank you for explaining!

[Wandering Investor]

6 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Pretty sure he mentioned the Recreance.

 

You're right, should have read better. That said, I think it was the double whammy of we might be the original aggressors, plus the threat of destroying the world, that caused the Recreance.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

18 minutes ago, Wandering Investor said:

You're right, should have read better. That said, I think it was the double whammy of we might be the original aggressors, plus the threat of destroying the world, that caused the Recreance.

I definitely agree with that, pretty sure somewhere in the OB epigraphs it talks about the surges being to powerful to use safely, I’ll have to look.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

I definitely agree with that, pretty sure somewhere in the OB epigraphs it talks about the surges being to powerful to use safely, I’ll have to look.

The Eila Stele mentions that the powers are dangerous, Captain Ico mentions something along the lines of "Without Honor you could become too powerful," and the Stormfather mentions that he was talking about the dawnshards which were apparently involved somehow.