Spiked Human vs Hemalurgic Construct

[cometaryorbit]

It seems that various combinations of spikes can make an Inquisitor, and you can keep adding more - Marsh had 11 at the end of the first book (2 in eyes, 1 linchpin in shoulders, 8 in ribs) and had 20-plus by the end of the trilogy.

But koloss seem to be always the same, 4 iron spikes. Why?

If someone accumulates spikes, what's the line between human and Inquisitor, and what does crossing that line mean? Maybe the point where you become controlled by Ruin or Harmony (Mr Suit says 3 spikes are safe, 4 aren't)? The point where you need a "linchpin spike" to survive?

What if you give an Inquisitor 4 iron spikes? Does it turn into a koloss, just die, become a super-strong Inquisitor or what?

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Well according to the Ars Arcanum, spike placement is the most important thing in that art. The problem is that unless you are a Shard, gaining knowledge of the art is ruinously expensive. Currently only a Shard would know all of the intracacies and have a reasonable idea of what they would get.

[Quantus he/him]

Hemalurgy is really just a process that lets you Frankenstein together pieces of Spiritweb into different forms for different purposes, and Kolos where simply one specific and often repeated design built for gross physical strength, basically shock troops.  Inquisitors were built for a different purpose, and with more variation, but tended to be more about consolidating Metallic Arts abilities. There's no realy tipping point, they are just different designs (Tanks vs...I dunno...Helicopters?)

[Karger he/him]

Inquisitors also had a spike that held everything together.  The more spikes you add the more dangerous it is because your spiritweb might fall apart with all the damage you are doing to it.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

IIRC inquisitors are classified as constructs.  I would guess that the line between human and construct is a question of “are the physiologically changed” So a spike that grants a power (like steel) would not necessarily create a construct but one that steals physical strength (iron) would.

[Karger he/him]

20 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

IIRC inquisitors are classified as constructs.  I would guess that the line between human and construct is a question of “are the physiologically changed” So a spike that grants a power (like steel) would not necessarily create a construct but one that steals physical strength (iron) would.

The difference depends on your classification system.  I personally would not consider inquisitors human because of their warped perception as apposed to any physiological changes.

[First Witness]

I mean,  I think,  technically if you're operable and possessing hemalurgic spikes then you're probably a hemalurgic construct, spiritually speaking.  

 

You are a spiritweb with multiple identities.  

[cometaryorbit]

6 hours ago, First Witness said:

I mean,  I think,  technically if you're operable and possessing hemalurgic spikes then you're probably a hemalurgic construct, spiritually speaking.  

 

You are a spiritweb with multiple identities.  

Maybe so, but the epigraphs in HOA seem to distinguish people who are spiked from Hemalurgic constructs.

11 hours ago, Karger said:

Inquisitors also had a spike that held everything together.  The more spikes you add the more dangerous it is because your spiritweb might fall apart with all the damage you are doing to it.

Yeah, that is probably the defining factor. I wonder whether there is a fixed number of spikes you can add before you need a linchpin spike, or whether it depends on what power it grants, Atium spikes vs. regular metals, etc.?

19 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Well according to the Ars Arcanum, spike placement is the most important thing in that art. The problem is that unless you are a Shard, gaining knowledge of the art is ruinously expensive. Currently only a Shard would know all of the intracacies and have a reasonable idea of what they would get.

Yeah. The odd thing to me is that the HOA epigraphs talk about how incredibly hard it is to make new types of hemalurgic constructs, that the Steel Ministry/TLR tried for 1,000 years and never got any beyond the basic three they started with.

Yet adding more spikes to existing Hemalurgic constructs seems to be fine. The Inquisitors in HOA would have benefited from Ruin's knowledge of Hemalurgy, and that might explain the extreme case of Marsh's 20+ spikes. But we do know from WOBs that the TLR-era Inquisitors didn't all have the same powers.

Anyway, TenSoon can just add in OreSeur's Blessing and get the extra strength, with no apparent ill effects and without being controlled by Ruin (and thus without Ruin's knowledge of the art).

So... what's the dividing line between "adding stuff to existing hemalurgic constructs" (apparently fairly easy) vs "making a new hemalurgic construct" (need Shard-level knowledge to make it work)?

Would a koloss with 6 iron spikes instead of 4 be a new construct or just a stronger koloss? What if you added 2 tin spikes to an existing koloss (TenSoon is mixing spike types, after all)?

 

[Grytorm]

Maybe the crossing point is when the subjects spirit web is sufficiently mangled that removing all the spikes would be fatal even if their were no complications from the injuries.

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/20/2019 at 10:44 PM, Grytorm said:

Maybe the crossing point is when the subjects spirit web is sufficiently mangled that removing all the spikes would be fatal even if their were no complications from the injuries.

Quite possibly. I wonder if that is the same point of "too spiked" that requires a linchpin spike?

Actually, probably not, as Koloss don't really seem to work on the linchpin model and they are definitely Hemalurgic constructs... But that might be a difference between Human Attribute spikes (which are said to be more distorting, IIRC) vs Allomantic/Feruchemical Power spikes.

[Quantus he/him]

Another line between Human and Construct might be the point after which you can no longer breed and make more Humans.  Kolos where definitely incapable until Harmony made some intentional tweaks, and mistwraiths/Kandra even more so.  Not sure where the average Inquisator fell on that spectrum, though.  

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

6 hours ago, Quantus said:

Another line between Human and Construct might be the point after which you can no longer breed and make more Humans.  Kolos where definitely incapable until Harmony made some intentional tweaks, and mistwraiths/Kandra even more so.  Not sure where the average Inquisator fell on that spectrum, though.  

I believe the coppermind says that Inquisitors could still breed to make normal humans, on the page for Steel Inquisitors. So they wouldn't be over that line in particular.

[Quantus he/him]

On 7/22/2019 at 7:20 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

I believe the coppermind says that Inquisitors could still breed to make normal humans, on the page for Steel Inquisitors. So they wouldn't be over that line in particular.

That's interesting. Kolos definitely could not prior to Harmony making that tweek, but Id argue they are less of a 'construct' than the Inquisitors, but the inquisitors are clearly more heavily modified by virture of them needing a lynchpin Spike to hold them together.  Maybe the ability to breed shouldnt be the cutoff for COnstruct vs modified person.  Or maybe we need to consider the point where a hemalurgically modified construct becomes a Shardically created species.

[Pathfinder]

On 7/22/2019 at 7:20 PM, Halyo_Alex said:

I believe the coppermind says that Inquisitors could still breed to make normal humans, on the page for Steel Inquisitors. So they wouldn't be over that line in particular.

I wouldn't say breed completely normal humans lol. WoB below:

 

zas678

You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but there also could be...complications.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I wouldn't say breed completely normal humans lol. WoB below:

 

zas678

You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but there also could be...complications.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

Okay fair enough, I didn't recall that, lol. Thanks for grabbing that for clarification.

[Karger he/him]

So I think producing fertile human offspring without any other complications is a good standard then.