aneonfoxtribute Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 I honestly think it's one of the most fascinating things in Stormlight. I can't even begin to consider where it'll end up going. I keep thinking "What if this is part of the plan, is this actually a deviation or was it planned all along", it's great. Could Cultivation have had a part in Taravangian creating the Diagram? Is Taravangian working with Odium a major part that will lead to Odium's downfall? Is the Diagram even finding a path to stopping Odium? Is it a path towards Odium's victory? This is why I shouldn't think about complicated things at two in the morning. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wander89 he/him Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 17 minutes ago, aneonfoxtribute said: I honestly think it's one of the most fascinating things in Stormlight. I can't even begin to consider where it'll end up going. I keep thinking "What if this is part of the plan, is this actually a deviation or was it planned all along", it's great. Could Cultivation have had a part in Taravangian creating the Diagram? Is Taravangian working with Odium a major part that will lead to Odium's downfall? Is the Diagram even finding a path to stopping Odium? Is it a path towards Odium's victory? This is why I shouldn't think about complicated things at two in the morning. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 Cultivation being behind the Diagram is a pet theory of a number of Sharders (*cough* @RShara *cough*), and the subject of lots of arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 T is a plant! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 We know that Taravangian initially believed that the diagram came exclusively from logical deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneonfoxtribute Posted June 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 4 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said: Cultivation being behind the Diagram is a pet theory of a number of Sharders (*cough* @RShara *cough*), and the subject of lots of arguments. It's not too big of an assumption. She can see the future well, she's meddled before with her designs on Dalinar, it does make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TheFoxQR Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) I'm not quite sure if I like what T being a plant implies - I don't like the idea of Odium, a flippin' Shard, not being able to immediately see through that. This is not to say that the Diagram isn't influenced by Cultivation. Just, there has to be more to it than that. It may be Cultivation trying to get certain things done under Odium's nose. Or influence other characters without arousing Odium's suspicion. There's also this whole almost feruchemical thing going on with Taravangian - would like to see what happened on that one day of brilliance, and what happened on his Visit. And then there's this goofball of weird called Lift. My personal theory is that the Diagram achieved it's primary purpose by the end of OB, when Odium uses it as a base and expands on it using his future sight. You know how sometimes, you're thinking of something, and then someone comes and says a couple words and your entire in-head thought process just shifts to something related to those words? It's gonna be like that. Odium was influenced in some way the moment he saw the diagram and decided to use it to his own ends - there's some flaw in his plans derived from it. Some sort of subtle cascade of cause and effect. The whole deal with Taravangian was meant to be smoke and mirrors - a distraction - so that Odium does not look too closely. So long as he thinks the primary purpose of the diagram was to make Taravangian king of the world, he would not be too suspicious of it. Moreover, the Diagram is what lead to Taravangian removing some of the most prominent figureheads in Human Roshar, and that also fits with the cutting and trimming aspect of Cultivation - sometimes you need to cut some things away for there to be further growth. It may also have been her way of getting rid of people likely to be used by Odium in the future. Edited June 12, 2019 by TheFoxQR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneonfoxtribute Posted June 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 I mean, isn't Cultivation better at future sight than Odium? It's entirely possible that he could believe the Diagram is the path to his own victory, not knowing that Cultivation has planted her own designs in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, TheFoxQR said: My personal theory is that the Diagram achieved it's primary purpose by the end of OB, when Odium uses it as a base and expands on it using his future sight. You know how sometimes, you're thinking of something, and then someone comes and says a couple words and your entire in-head thought process just shifts to something related to those words? It's gonna be like that. Odium was influenced in some way the moment he saw the diagram and decided to use it to his own ends - there's some flaw in his plans derived from it. Some sort of subtle cascade of cause and effect. The whole deal with Taravangian was meant to be smoke and mirrors - a distraction - so that Odium does not look too closely. So long as he thinks the primary purpose of the diagram was to make Taravangian king of the world, he would not be too suspicious of it. Moreover, the Diagram is what lead to Taravangian removing some of the most prominent figureheads in Human Roshar, and that also fits with the cutting and trimming aspect of Cultivation - sometimes you need to cut some things away for there to be further growth. It may also have been her way of getting rid of people likely to be used by Odium in the future. So in other words the Diagram is a bunch of misinformation(or real information with a bit of misinformation contained in it) designed to mislead Odium? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TheFoxQR Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) @Karger My process was something like this: Odium thought he had a pretty good handle on things when he first came in just before the battle at Thaylenah. He had his enemies cornered - he brought his own "troops" faster than they expected, he pretty much had a champion in there, and he knew how he could break their morale by using their own troops as his. Then, not only did he not win the battle, he failed to get Dalinar spectacularly, who in his Unity moment did something that got an exhortation out if Odium. Nergoul was captured. And he had just agreed to a contest of champions - with his primary candidate as champion now in a much better position to win against him. So he would have been terrified. This is the Shard that goes around murdering other Shards because he doesn't want the competition. This is the vessel that doesn't pick any other Shard because he thinks that would change him. He's gonna be a bit desperate, willing to take chances. He needs a new plan. Which, I think, is precisely what Cultivation wanted. Potentially even planned for. Practically all these losses were a direct result of Dalinar not falling to Odium - and this was directly due to Cultivation's meddling. See, this is when he first goes after a Herald's soul. Using someone (Vyre) who's only really in the position that he is because of direct interference in his life by the Diagram. This is where he goes and makes his deal with Taravangian, this is when he starts seriously considering the Diagram as a potential option. The Diagram is then Cultivation acting by proxy. The Diagram is then a means to set the board for Odium to lose. Or maybe the Diagram is meant to direct his efforts in a certain way. It's meant to be seen as precise, but it does have one known flaw. It doesn't account for compassion. Maybe it comes attached with a tiny asterisk in some detail, which Odium may have caught if he'd been planning himself, but because he's using the Diagram as a framework, he overlooks. I dunno all the precise roles it plays, just that it's gonna be important. Using it may come back to bite him in a certain place on his perfect, passionate, Shardic self. Edited June 12, 2019 by TheFoxQR 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 @TheFoxQR I'm not sure how what you're saying is any different than the "T is a plant" idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TheFoxQR Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 @Scion of the Mists I'm basically saying something more subtle is going on there. On Taravangian's Visit, Cultivation may have asked him if he'd be willing to pay a big price, if his doing so will lead to victory. And Taravangian being the good soul he is said yes, but had this part of his spiritweb taken by Cultivation to remove the memory, similar to what she did to Dalinar. The idea is that the Diagram is the real "plant", Taravangian having created it with nothing but sheer intelligence and for the purpose of making him king is what sells it. The fact that it's flawed from a Shardic Perspective (its predictions have failed several times) is also a selling factor - that maybe no supernatural element was used to make it. This way, it allows Cultivation to influence things without Odium noticing. And it allows her to play Odium a bit too. It's not exactly against T being a plant, more a sister theory to that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scion of the Mists Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 1 minute ago, TheFoxQR said: @Scion of the Mists I'm basically saying something more subtle is going on there. On Taravangian's Visit, Cultivation may have asked him if he'd be willing to pay a big price, if his doing so will lead to victory. And Taravangian being the good soul he is said yes, but had this part of his spiritweb taken by Cultivation to remove the memory, similar to what she did to Dalinar. The idea is that the Diagram is the real "plant", Taravangian having created it with nothing but sheer intelligence and for the purpose of making him king is what sells it. The fact that it's flawed from a Shardic Perspective (its predictions have failed several times) is also a selling factor - that maybe no supernatural element was used to make it. This way, it allows Cultivation to influence things without Odium noticing. And it allows her to play Odium a bit too. It's not exactly against T being a plant, more a sister theory to that idea. It's been a while since I've read the original theory, but I thought that's exactly what the "plant" theory was - that the Diagram is a tool that Cultivation is using to subtly fight against Odium, rather than it's purported use of helping Taravangian gain power/save people. I should find it again and reread it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TheFoxQR Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 @Scion of the Mists To be honest, so do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathrangking he/him Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 23 hours ago, RShara said: T is a plant! Upvoted for being spot on!! 15 hours ago, TheFoxQR said: I'm not quite sure if I like what T being a plant implies - I don't like the idea of Odium, a flippin' Shard, not being able to immediately see through that. This is not to say that the Diagram isn't influenced by Cultivation. Just, there has to be more to it than that. It may be Cultivation trying to get certain things done under Odium's nose. Or influence other characters without arousing Odium's suspicion. There's also this whole almost feruchemical thing going on with Taravangian - would like to see what happened on that one day of brilliance, and what happened on his Visit. And then there's this goofball of weird called Lift. My personal theory is that the Diagram achieved it's primary purpose by the end of OB, when Odium uses it as a base and expands on it using his future sight. You know how sometimes, you're thinking of something, and then someone comes and says a couple words and your entire in-head thought process just shifts to something related to those words? It's gonna be like that. Odium was influenced in some way the moment he saw the diagram and decided to use it to his own ends - there's some flaw in his plans derived from it. Some sort of subtle cascade of cause and effect. The whole deal with Taravangian was meant to be smoke and mirrors - a distraction - so that Odium does not look too closely. So long as he thinks the primary purpose of the diagram was to make Taravangian king of the world, he would not be too suspicious of it. Moreover, the Diagram is what lead to Taravangian removing some of the most prominent figureheads in Human Roshar, and that also fits with the cutting and trimming aspect of Cultivation - sometimes you need to cut some things away for there to be further growth. It may also have been her way of getting rid of people likely to be used by Odium in the future. See the thing is though that it is possible. Shards are fallible which has been shown time and again. The use of fortune counteracts fortune. It is not hard for me to believe that Odium blinds himself by virtue of his pride. The way that things play out as well as the fact that Odium cannot see crucial elements male it pretty convincing that Cultivation is moving Taravangian across the board in a secret war against Odium with actions that seem to support Odium's mission/ goals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara she/her Posted June 12, 2019 Report Share Posted June 12, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Scion of the Mists said: It's been a while since I've read the original theory, but I thought that's exactly what the "plant" theory was - that the Diagram is a tool that Cultivation is using to subtly fight against Odium, rather than it's purported use of helping Taravangian gain power/save people. I should find it again and reread it. Sadly, I haven't made an actual topic on it, I've just expounded on it in a few threads. I started to make a topic but the forum ate my post when I was on point 7/10 and I haven't had the heart to retype it all. But basically, yes, everything about T, from the Diagram to his intellect/compassion days, is a giant long con by Cultivation. The Diagram on the surface is meant to "save" Roshar the way T thinks it should. But so far, it's only actually managed to help Dalinar and his coalition. Without the deats of all those people, the coalition probably wouldn't even be in place, and Dalinar wouldn't be the head of it. There are likely subtle "flaws" built into it to ultimately sabotage Odium's plans. T himself is another trap. His variable intellect makes Odium think it's safe to confront him on his low-intellect days. But on his low intellect days, he's going to follow the instructions of his high intellect days. His high intellect days would follow the Diagram, which...well, yeah. And even on his high intellect days, I wouldn't be surprised if Cultivation had planted some hidden knowledge for him to "realize" that would continue to further her plans. Edited June 12, 2019 by RShara 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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