Does the Cosmere Exist in a Multiverse?

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Basically just what the title said. We know that the future is not predetermined in the Cosmere, so do all of those branching paths create new Universes?

[Nathrangking he/him]

Possibly though in all universes stick proclaims his stickness!!!!!!!!

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

You mean like the Many Worlds kind of multiverse? Where each choice branches spacetime into it's own path?

Well, we know Atium and other forms of Fortune are not irrefutable visions of the future...

So yeah, I could see that being the case. It shows you the most likely future.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

2 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

You mean like the Many Worlds kind of multiverse? Where each choice branches spacetime into it's own path?

Well, we know Atium and other forms of Fortune are not irrefutable visions of the future...

So yeah, I could see that being the case. It shows you the most likely future.

Yea, I was thinking along the lines of Marvel or DC comics, where there are separate versions of the same Universe in which different choices have been made.

WoT spoilers

Spoiler

The alternate realities that Rand sees when he uses the portal stone in The Great Hunt.

 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

1 minute ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Yea, I was thinking along the lines of Marvel or DC comics, where there are separate versions of the same Universe in which different choices have been made.

WoT spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

The alternate realities that Rand sees when he uses the portal stone in The Great Hunt.

 

So like, a timeline where Vin managed to kill Ruin without dying and became Harmony?

...That sounds fun, but unlikely. So we ended up in the timeline where she died and Sazed became Harmony. Nice.

[+Invocation]

Sandman did say there were timelines that there were no atium, so it's possible.

[Elegy he/him]

This is a theoretical question that will most probably never be answered. Time line changes won't happen in the cosmere, as far as I recall. That doesn't mean they couldn't ever happen/other realities don't exist, but it won't be part of the narrative.

(On a side-note, I think it's good that way, since time line changes devalue the decisions of the characters, but that's a whole other topic.)

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

1 hour ago, Elegy said:

(On a side-note, I think it's good that way, since time line changes devalue the decisions of the characters, but that's a whole other topic.)

I agree with that completely. It's kind of like character resurrection, it removes permanent consequences from the equation and makes things seem less important.

"Uh oh, looks like so and so died again. I wonder how long it will be until he comes back?" *shrugs*

[Wander89 he/him]

This would be a great "what-if?" thread. I think everything exists in a multi-verse but the story would not benefit from having this at all. There are already 3 realms to deal with but I guess it would be fun to think about what happened if Kelsier did become the next ruler or if Raoden wasn't taken by the Reod

[ND103]

I would argue we've already seen some evidence that would support a different version which should conveniently support the concerns around resurrections etc. 

Fortune/other foresight abilities are only showing a probabilistic version of what could happen. Not what will. However the act of making a particular decision, collapses that probabilistic future into the decision we see being made.

For instance Renarin saw Jasnah killing him. And Dalinar becoming the champion of Odium. Jasnah decided not to, and that decision collapses the futures into that one thread period. Sort of like a conservation of history, so once something has happened, it will always happen that way. But until that decision has been made, anything is indeed possible. 

The very very loose evidence I have of this is spren and how measuring them fixed them in place in that one chapter. Basically the act of defining/recording one possible version, fixes it to that particular version. I appreciate how much of a stretch this is, but from what little I understand of the physics of Many worlds theory etc, this would be a plausible and consistent behaviour with the model I propose where a decision on timelines sets it in stone and nothing can change that going forward, and only that one universe exists. 

Fwiw, I'm not a physicist and any knowledge I have in this subject is purely from listening to people talk about it in science podcasts (like the infinite monkey cage) so I could be significantly wrong on the subject. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by ND103

[Wander89 he/him]

If a multiverse does exist, we could potentially see a universe where Spensa meets Vin.

[Weltall]

23 minutes ago, Wander89 said:

If a multiverse does exist, we could potentially see a universe where Spensa meets Vin.

NOPE. And the same WoB where Brandon says that also says there's no multiverse to the Cosmere:

Quote

kdt05b

Can Megan manifest a Cosmere reality? The Reckoners is not part of the Cosmere, but one of they main character's power is reaching into alternate dimensions. I want to see some epics on Roshar!

Brandon Sanderson

I wanted to avoid multi-verse theory type things in the Cosmere, in part because the Wheel of Time delved into these concepts, and even before working on the WoT was looking for ways to keep the Cosmere distinctive from it.

Beyond that, multiverses (along with time travel) really play havoc with continuity. I felt the cosmere was stronger if I kept to the three Realms--that's complex enough. Assume that in the cosmere, while different possible futures/pasts do branch (and can be seen) things like Allomantic gold are NOT looking at other realities--and there is only one reality, once events actually occur.

This does mean that time travel into the past is not going to be a factor in the cosmere.

This separation does let me divide these concepts off and play with them in other realms (like the Reckoners) where they're 'quarantined' so to speak.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 12, 2018)

 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

@Weltall It's weird that he said "futures/pasts do branch" while simultaneously saying that the past is fixed. That WoB does kill any possibility of a multiverse though, so thanks.

[ZenBossanova]

13 minutes ago, Weltall said:

NOPE. And the same WoB where Brandon says that also says there's no multiverse to the Cosmere:

 

That is good to hear. I think that multiverse theory, much like Erich von Däniken's Chariot of the Gods, has done far more for science fiction than it has ever done for science. 

Yes, I know some big names have spoken in favor of it, but I think they are nuts. (If I must argue quantum mechanics interpretations, I prefer the ER=EPR, though it is less fleshed out that other theories). 

[Wander89 he/him]

30 minutes ago, Weltall said:

NOPE. And the same WoB where Brandon says that also says there's no multiverse to the Cosmere:

 

I've already mentioned in the thread that I do not think the story benefits from a multiverse. I really do not think that there is one but it's a great what-if concept.

[Ripheus23]

If enough people in the cosmere believed that they were in a multiverse, couldn't they make a micro-multiverse, sort of, in the Cognitive Realm?

EDIT: I could see this being an interesting region to be explored in MBE4, maybe like a longterm holdover expanding out from the Cognitive storm of Sel...

Edited July 10, 2019 by Ripheus23

[Honorless he/him]

On 5/25/2019 at 3:33 AM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Basically just what the title said. We know that the future is not predetermined in the Cosmere, so do all of those branching paths create new Universes?

I believe that what you stated in the title of your topic is correct: yes, the Cosmere does exist in a multiverse but I don't know about the "every possibility is true" version of the multiverse. I mean, Brandon always explained Fortune in a mathematical manner- as though peering into the Spiritual Realm expanded one's mind and opened it to multiple possibilities, that their minds were now running on a faster OS with better calculating power due to their Spiritual aspect being their perfect selves. Then again he has also described it as a place where "time and place are one". But when he talks about the mechanics of two Atium users or one Atium and one Electrum user or the situation with Renarin in Odium's expanded Diagram, he always expressed them as calculations of probability.

I think of the Cosmere as being contained within a multiverse in a different sense, because of the WoBs stating that:

Spoiler

the Cosmere is a small star cluster (prev ones described it as a small galaxy).

I think that eventually, Adonalsium would turn out to be one god among many, with the Cosmere as his (former) personal playground. It might be a case of "turtles all the way down" with Adonalsium turning out to be a mere fragment of something greater, just like the Shards were his fragments. Gods upon gods upon gods.....

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Honorless

[Aon Tia she/her]

On 10/16/2019 at 7:46 PM, Honorless said:

I think that eventually, Adonalsium would turn out to be one god among many, with the Cosmere as his (former) personal playground. It might be a case of "turtles all the way down" with Adonalsium turning out to be a mere fragment of something greater, just like the Shards were his fragments. Gods upon gods upon gods.....

I doubt this, but there are wobs on this but they are also not very clear : 

Quote

Jeff (paraphrased)

Was Adonalsium’s power original to Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. As far as anyone knows, there was no predecessor to Adonalsium. Good question. 

And then there is this one, which seems to support your view: 

Quote

Questioner

In the universe that the cosmere takes place in, is Adonalsium god or is he a smaller entity?

Brandon Sanderson

That is a matter of some debate and I will not answer yes or no because I would rather not-- I would rather leave it to the characters' debate.

 and this one too... 

Quote

Chaos

You have once said, with regard to a question about Shards being the most powerful thing in the cosmere, that some would say that other "subtle forces" are being manifest. Are these subtle forces related to Adonalsium's opposition?

Brandon Sanderson

There is belief in a God who is not one of the Shards.

So u might be right but, Even if it were true though, I doubt we will go that far into the multiverse...

Edited October 24, 2019 by The traveller

[Wander89 he/him]

I would like to think that everything exists in a multiverse (however that will not be expanded upon). I can only imagine Stephen Leeds interacting with Wayne being a great encounter!

[Aon Tia she/her]

yes it seems likely that there is a multiverse. So may be skyward is based in this other universe, and alcatraz in another, leeds in another... ultimately all linked together to form a mega mashup..