Save that Character!

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

11 hours ago, TheGirlWhoLookedUp said:

I would save Moash’s Grandparents before they got arrested. That way, I’d also save Moash from becoming how he is now and let him have a normal life.

I really like this idea. 

 

12 hours ago, Invocation said:

Not as much of a show as a dude's head exploding.

I am not as much a fan of this though. Amaram has had a hard time. 

[+Invocation]

4 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I am not as much a fan of this though. Amaram has had a hard time. 

And I'll make him have a harder one.

[Zephrun’s Imperium they/he]

No! Amaram deserves redemption!

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

3 minutes ago, Invocation said:

And I'll make him have a harder one.

Amaram doesn’t deserve that. Really, he isn’t as bad as people make him out to be. 

[+Invocation]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

Amaram doesn’t deserve that. Really, he isn’t as bad as people make him out to be. 

Fair. Won't stop me, though!

[Zephrun’s Imperium they/he]

He's not near as bad as Moash. 

[+Invocation]

Just now, Shard of Thought said:

He's not near as bad as Moash. 

True.

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Amaram doesn’t deserve that. Really, he isn’t as bad as people make him out to be. 

Eh, Amaram isn’t that great. I think he deserved the death he got, even if he isn’t as bad as Moash. 

1 minute ago, Shard of Thought said:

He's not near as bad as Moash. 

I guess this gets into why Moash is worse than Amaram. Moash had the chance to be better, to choose to take responsibility for his actions and be like kaladin. Instead he chose to give up. Amaram isn’t as bad because... well he was genuinely misguided and took his actions in a perveted view of what is right and wrong. But he wasn’t trying to be evil, you know? Moash is choosing to be evil, to just give in and shove the responsibility on someone else, making him all the more evil in our eyes. 

[+Invocation]

Just now, Steeldancer said:

I guess this gets into why Moash is worse than Amaram. Moash had the chance to be better, to choose to take responsibility for his actions and be like kaladin. Instead he chose to give up. Amaram isn’t as bad because... well he was genuinely misguided and took his actions in a perveted view of what is right and wrong. But he wasn’t trying to be evil, you know? Moash is choosing to be evil, to just give in and shove the responsibility on someone else, making him all the more evil in our eyes. 

You're good at that breakdown. Have you considered joining the Anti-Moash gang?

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, Invocation said:

You're good at that breakdown. Have you considered joining the Anti-Moash gang?

I prefer not to be in any “anti” gangs. I prefer my membership in the “Pro-Taln Love” Gang. And Taln is the character I would save, because he deserves nothing but love and appreciation for his greatness. 

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

I prefer not to be in any “anti” gangs. I prefer my membership in the “Pro-Taln Love” Gang. And Taln is the character I would save, because he deserves nothing but love and appreciation for his greatness. 

Both of those are fair points!

[Steeldancer he/him]

Would saving Taln from torture break the stormlight archive? Probably. Do I care? Not particularly. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

39 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Eh, Amaram isn’t that great. I think he deserved the death he got, even if he isn’t as bad as Moash. 

Amaram is misguided, controlled by others and is selfish but he does also genuinely want to do right and be good. I think that with other circumstances he would have been on Team Dalinar. 

36 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Would saving Taln from torture break the stormlight archive? Probably. Do I care? Not particularly. 

Would it make Taln happy though? I think he would be happy to take torture to keep Roshar safe. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Amaram is misguided, controlled by others and is selfish but he does also genuinely want to do right and be good. I think that with other circumstances he would have been on Team Dalinar. 

 

Oathbringer page 520

"Amaram genuinely thought he was Alethkar’s only hope and salvation, and had a keen desire to prove it. Left alone, he’d rip the armies apart to justify his inflated opinion of himself."

 

That doesn't sound like genuinely wanting to do right and be good. That sounds like wanting to be seen and extolled as doing right and being good, even though the means to appear as such are wrong and evil. Given the topic title, totally respect you wanted Amaram to be alive, and you see good in him, but since this has started to turn into a discussion on Amaram and his merits, I felt it was within context to include my two cents on it. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Amaram genuinely thought he was Alethkar’s only hope and salvation, and had a keen desire to prove it. Left alone, he’d rip the armies apart to justify his inflated opinion of himself."

First off, Jasnah is biased and hates Amaram. We dont know if her judgement is trustworthy in his case. 

Second, I don’t think he would work against the team effort out of ego. He finds the defeat of Odium incredibly important, doesn’t like to waste human life and believes in the KR and the Heralds (until Odium turns him). Amaram is handicapped by his ego, but I dont think that he would destroy everything just to show how good he is.

[Nathrangking he/him]

Miles hundredlives. Hear me out he and Wax were different only in that Trell got to Miles first.

[Karger he/him]

On 4/28/2019 at 0:37 AM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Ruin, because our world deserves it...

That's so depressing a a thought that I wish we could downvote people.

I would save Honor.  Then when Dalinar asks "where is Honor?"  I could say "with me."

Alternatively Tyndwil so Sazed could have some happiness.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Karger

[ShardShaper he/him]

On 4/28/2019 at 0:37 AM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Ruin, because our world deserves it...

Not Ruin, Odium.

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

First off, Jasnah is biased and hates Amaram. We dont know if her judgement is trustworthy in his case. 

Second, I don’t think he would work against the team effort out of ego. He finds the defeat of Odium incredibly important, doesn’t like to waste human life and believes in the KR and the Heralds (until Odium turns him). Amaram is handicapped by his ego, but I dont think that he would destroy everything just to show how good he is.

Dalinar trusts Jasnah's judgement implicitly (mentioned two or three times across the three novels). He wanted her to come to the shattered plains so he could abdicate knowing she would be there to help with Elhokar and Adolin. Shallan has commented on how Jasnah always reinforces gathering as much knowledge as possible before making judgements. That was ironically concerning Shallan's feelings for Amaram when she found out he killed her brother (I know he didn't, but that was what she thought at the time). Jasnah has known Amaram the longest and spent the most time with him. So no, I do not think Jasnah is biased, and I do think her judgement is very trustworthy. Given your thoughts on Jasnah in the past, I am surprised you never dropped by my thread "Jasnah more than meets the eye" to give your thoughts on her in view of the quotes I provided. 

Thing is he did exactly that. I will need a moment to pull up the scene but Amaram was pissed at Dalinar for being "wasted coddling the Thaylens" (almost an exact quote, though I believe he used a different word than coddling exactly). He also assumed helping the Thaylens was a ruse to learn their defenses in order to conquer them. Great thinking for a noble general regarding his allies huh? That says to me he would waste human life (like Kaladin's men) if it justified his own sense of self importance. That he must be the one to bring about the Vorin religion. The thing is, again, he did. His giving in the Odium. His switching sides is him being willing to destroy everything, to still be seen as "good". I also want to go over all three books to see if Amaram really wants to save people's souls. I feel like it is more important to him that the Vorin church returns to dominance. Again, appearance. I have been contemplating treating Amaram, the same way I did with Jasnah by combing all three books for every quote associated with him, and presenting them side by side. My concern/the only thing holding me back is my own bias against Amaram. I wouldn't want it to seem like I was cherry picking quotes to make him appear in a worse light. If I went through the effort of doing so. If I pulled up every quote of Amaram (both from outsiders views, as well as his own PoV), would you be willing to read it regardless what conclusion it could result in?

 

edit: also side note, Dalinar gave Amaram a chance to join the Kholin side even after Amaram switched sides to Odium. Amaram still refused. 

edit 2: here is the quote about the Thaylens, complete with anger sprened Amaram

Oathbringer page 1035

"The city looks far better" Dalinar said "your men did well."

"Then maybe our penance can be over, "Amaram said. he said it straight, though angerspren - a pool of boiling blood -  spread from beneath his right foot.

"Your work here was important, soldier. You didn't only rebuild a city; you built the trust of the Thaylen people."

"Of course" Amaram added, more softly "And I do see the tactical importance of knowing the enemy fortifications."

You fool. "The Thaylens are not our enemies"

"I misspoke" Amaram said "Yet I cannot ignore that the Kholin troops have been depoloyed to the border between our kingdom and Jah Keved. Your men get to liberate our homeland, while mine spend their days digging in rocks. You do realize the effect this has on their morale, particularly since many of them still assume you assassinated their highprince"

"I hope that their current leader has worked to disabuse them of such false notions"

Amaram finally turned to look Dalinar in the eyes. Those angerspren were still there, though his tone was crisp and militaristic. "Brightlord. I know you for a realist. I've modeled my career after yours. Frankly, even if you did kill him - which I know you must deny - I would respect you for it. Torol was a liability to this nation. Let me prove to you that I am not the same. Storms, Dalinar! I'm your best front line general, and you know it. Torol spent years wasting me because my reputation intimidated him. Don't make the same mistake. Use me. Let me fight for Alethkar, not kiss the feet of Thaylen merchants! I-"

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

Save Eshoni!  What did she ever do wrong?

23 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Amaram doesn’t deserve that. Really, he isn’t as bad as people make him out to be. 

Downvote

[ShardShaper he/him]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Save Eshoni!  What did she ever do wrong?

Have an upvote.

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, ShardShaper said:

Have an upvote.

Thank you?  (What is the protocol on this?)

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

8 hours ago, ShardShaper said:

Not Ruin, Odium.

Eh, Odium leaves the worlds behind when he's done, he's just after the other Shards. Ruin, on the other hand, would see the thing done properly.

[ShardShaper he/him]

BUT Odium tries to wipe out humanity on Roshar for inconveniencing him. What would he do to people who pulled him out of his galaxy?

 

[Pathfinder]

Dockson. The poor guy lost the love of his life when younger, never had powers, and had to constantly clean up Kelsier's messes (resulting in his death). I think he deserves a break.