theory Helaran wasn't involved with the Skybreakers

[Sedside]

So we know, that after Shallan read Mraize’s letter, Pattern said: “Secrets. There are lies in this letter.” I wanted to figure out what exactly could those lies be. I assume those are “meaningful” lies, not incorrect wording or something like that, but a deliberate attempt to tell Shallan something wrong, that can lead her the wrong way. I also assume that Pattern isn’t an ultimate detector of lies just because they are lies. He just sees patterns in all things, so he sees some misconnections and illogical statements, that’s why he says there are lies in the letter. I also don’t think that “lies” are similar to “hiding something”. So my assumption is that the lies in this letter are major and intentional.

So, here is the whole letter (spoilered for length).

Spoiler

There are at least two major institutions on Roshar, other than ourselves, which presaged the return of the Voidbringers and the Desolations, the letter read.

You are familiar with the first of these, the men who call themselves the Sons of Honor. The old king of Alethkar—the Blackthorn’s brother, Gavilar Kholin—was a driving force in their expansion. He brought Meridas Amaram into their fold.

As you no doubt discovered upon infiltrating Amaram’s mansion in the warcamps, the Sons of Honor explicitly worked for the return of the Desolations. They believed that only the Voidbringers would cause the Heralds to show themselves—and they believed that a Desolation would restore both the Knights Radiant and the classical strength of the Vorin church. King Gavilar’s efforts to rekindle the Desolations are likely the true reason he was assassinated. Though there were many in the palace that night who had reason to see him dead.

A second group who knew the Desolations might return are the Skybreakers. Led by the ancient Herald Nalan’Elin—often simply called Nale—the Skybreakers are the only order of Radiants that did not betray its oaths during the Recreance. They have maintained a continuous clandestine line from ancient days.

Nale believed that men speaking the Words of other orders would hasten the return of the Voidbringers. We do not know how this could possibly be true, but as a Herald, Nale has access to knowledge and understanding beyond us.

You should know that the Heralds are no longer to be seen as allies to man. Those that are not completely insane have been broken. Nale himself is ruthless, without pity or mercy. He has spent the last two decades—perhaps much longer—dealing with anyone close to bonding a spren. Sometimes he recruited these people, bonding them to highspren and making them Skybreakers. Others he eliminated. If the person had already bonded a spren, then Nale usually went in person to dispatch them. If not, he sent a minion.

A minion like your brother Helaran.

Your mother had intimate contact with a Skybreaker acolyte, and you know the result of that relationship. Your brother was recruited because Nale was impressed with him. Nale may also have learned, through means we do not understand, that a member of your house was close to bonding a spren. If this is true, they came to believe that Helaran was the one they wanted. They recruited him with displays of great power and Shards.

Helaran had not yet proved himself worthy of a spren bond. Nale is exacting with his recruits. Likely, Helaran was sent to kill Amaram as a test—either that or he took it upon himself as a way of proving his worthiness for knighthood.

It is also possible that the Skybreakers knew someone in Amaram’s army was close to bonding a spren, but I believe it likelier that the attack on Amaram was simply a strike against the Sons of Honor. From our spying upon the Skybreakers, we have records showing the only member of Amaram’s army to have bonded a spren was long since eliminated.

The bridgeman was not, so far as we understand, known to them. If he had been, he would certainly have been killed during his months as a slave.

TLDR:

1. Sons on Honor want to bring Desolations and Heralds back. That’s obviously the truth, as stated in text and by WoBs.
2. Skybreakers want to prevent the Desolations. That’s obviously the truth too.
3. Heralds cannot be viewed as allies. There was an opinion somewhere on this forum, that this statement might be lies, but I disagree. All Heralds have different goals and have different states of mind - whos ally can Jezrien be, for example (he was alive when the letter was written)? Ash doesn’t seem to care too. Nale is an enemy to team Honor, others are playing their own games too. So, I think this thesis is also the truth.
4. Shallan’s mother was involved with Skybreakers. This could be the lie, but I don’t think it is. It looks logical and makes sense. But if we imagine it was a lie - why mention it in the first place? What goal is he accomplishing by telling this lie to Shallan? I struggle to come up with an idea.
5. Helaran was involved with Skybreakers. And this is the one I think is the lie. I will explain my PoV below.

 

This Skybreakers reveal makes absolutely no sense to me. There are a lot contradictions to the facts we know so far. Let’s analyze this reveal from a logical standpoint. I will list all the details or statements, that I find doubtful or weird, provide them all with all possible explanations I can see, and try to disprove them:

1. Helaran’s Shardblade.

   a). The Shardblade is alive.

        i) The Shardblade is Helaran’s spren. If his Shardblade comes from his spren, then he must be at least 3rd level Skybreaker (which actually already is a lie, because the letter says he wanted to prove himself worthy of a spren bond), and in this case a 3rd level Skybreaker managed to get killed with a single face blow of a common spear, not using a single surge before his death. Did he forget to take infused spheres with him?

        ii). The Shardblade is other Radiant’s spren. If some other Radiant had borrowed Helaran his Shardblade, why didn’t they summon that Shardblade back after Helaran’s death?

    b). The Shardblade is dead. If Helaran isn’t bonded to a spren, as the letter itself states, then his Shardblade must be dead. This is the most likely case, if Skybreakers reveal is true. But it still doesn’t make sense to me. Why would Knights Radiant order keep a dead Shardblade? Why give it to a potential member of the order or whomever else? They have a lot of members of 3+ level wielding living Blades that can do such kind of job much more effectively. Why would Skybreakers need a Shardbearer wielding specifically dead Blade for any kind of job? The only possible reason for that could be if they needed to kill someone, who hasn’t committed any crimes, so this action wouldn’t damage their bonds. But wouldn’t it? If they don’t do it themselves but order someone else to do it, are their spren OK with that? All right, if giving an order to kill an innocent doesn’t damage the bond, why don’t they exploit their 3rd Oath, so that several 3rd level Skybreakers swear to follow Nale’s judgement, like Szeth sworn to follow Dalinar, and everyone wins? Nale’s bond is fine, as long as he doesn’t take frags for himself, members’ bonds are fine too, as they follow the chosen source of law. There was also an opinion somewhere on this forum, that Nale gave him the Blade to prevent him from bonding a spren. Again, doesn’t make sense. If Nale doesn’t want Helaran to bond a spren, why not just kill him? Well, you would say Helaran didn’t commit any crimes. But what does he do with his Shardblade then? If he never kills innocent people with his Shardblade, then why can’t he be replaced by a 3^rd level Skybreaker, that can do absolutely the same more effectively? And if Helaran has ever killed an innocent man with his Blade, then Nale easily can just kill him and take his Blade back. And then give it to the next potential Surgebinder to lure him into the same trap.

2. Nale was impressed by Helaran. And here I want to know why. Because I am not impressed by Helaran yet. I know that Shallan thinks very well of him, but what did he do? I am not going to judge his actions or whatever, I just want to know, how could Helaran impress the Herald of Justice, that he had to recruit him to the Knights Radiant order by “display of great power and Shards”? All right, we don’t know what he did, but we have some of his quotes:

Quote

“We can’t have vengeance yet,” Helaran said softly. “Balat can’t lead the house, and I must be away. Soon, though.”

Quote

 “There are more important things in this world,” Helaran said. “More important even than you and your crimes.”

Quote

“You are a vile corruption upon this house,” Helaran said. “I should shove this through your chest. To do so would be a mercy.”

Quote

 

“Helaran…” The passion seemed to have bled from Father, like the color from his face, which had gone stark white. “You don’t know what you think you know. Your mother—”

“I will not listen to your lies,” Helaran said, rotating his wrist, twisting the sword in his hand, point still against Father’s chest. “So easy.”

 

Quote

 “You speak now?” Helaran said. “To defend him?” He laughed. A wild bark of a noise. He whipped the sword away from Father’s chest.

Quote

 “Farewell, Father,” Helaran said, turning and striding from the room. “Try not to ruin too much while I’m gone. I will come back periodically to check.” His voice echoed in the hallway outside as he left.

He doesn’t speak about justice, he doesn’t listen to Lin’s explanations, he doesn’t seem to be rational and willing to do the right thing from the perspective of law. He speaks about vengeance, he is angry, he laughs, barks, summons his Shardblade and so on. He also says, that there are things, that are more important than his father’s crimes. Could something be more important than a crime to a Skybreaker? I don’t know, how this kind of behavior could have impressed Nale.

3. The timeline. The above quoted scene is from 5.5 years ago, and Helaran already has a Shardblade in it. So he has presumably joined Skybreakers more than 4 years prior to his death. So the conclusions are:

            i) The man that has impressed Nale himself couldn’t prove being worthy of a spren bond during more than 4 years.

            ii) That same man was 4 years a Shardbearer. Kaladin was 4 years a spearman. Blade and Plate are much more powerful weapons than a common spear. Still, Helaran died to Kaladin, given the same amount of time for training. Helaran has impressed Nale?

4. The whole point of proving worthy of a spren bond. As I understood from the text, wielding a dead Blade prevents one from bonding a spren. Also, I think that proving yourself worthy of bonding a highspren by killing 20 innocent people just passing by is not a terribly good decision. Well, all right, most of them attacked him, so it could count as self defence, but what did Cenn do? He was only 15, and Helaran trampled him with his horse. And by the way, was his horse also given to him by Skybreakers?

5. Some quotes about his business.

Quote

 “You have news of my brother Helaran.”

The messenger nodded. “He is a very determined young man.”

“Where is he?”

“Doing things he finds very important. I would fault him for it, as I find nothing more frightening than a man trying to do what he has decided is important. Very little in the world has ever gone astray—at least on a grand scale—because a person decided to be frivolous.”

“He is well, though?” she asked.

“Well enough. The message for your father was that he has eyes nearby, and is watching.”

It sounds strange to me, that Hoid could have said “doing things he finds very important” about being a member of Knights Radiant. I would read this as “playing his toys” or something like that. It’s just a strange wording, to me. I would say that it’s more likely be worded as “becoming someone” or “having an important mission” or something like that.

And also it is strange, that Helaran has eyes, watching Lin. Would he have them, if he was a Skybreaker acolyte? All right, maybe Skybreakers would be interested in Lin’s crimes, but how wouldn’t they then notice Shallan and finish her mother’s job? And if Helaran truly thought Skybreakers’ mission important, wouldn’t he then tried to finish it too? Also, at this point of story Helaran is in Alethkar. Other times they mention his whereabouts they are in Jah Keved - Northgrip and Valath. Considering that Skybreakers’ fortress is in Purelake, it is strange, how far he is always from there.

Another quote from Helaran himself:

Quote

“We have an important work to do,” Helaran said, turning and striding to Shallan. He laid a hand fondly on her shoulder. He continued more softly. “I will tell you of it someday, Sister. It is good to hear your voice again before I leave.”

He also says that it’s a “work to do”. So it feels like this is the work that can be finished, not an ongoing process of eliminating Surgebinders and progressing as a KR. And notice also that he uses the pronoun “we”, and says that he will tell Shallan about it someday. Skybreakers don’t seem like a team doing the same job to me, and I also don’t think he would like to tell Shallan, that he is one of the Lost Radiants, killing other potential Lost Radiants to prevent the return of the Desolations.

So, that’s my list of questions to Mraize, if you could say so.

Well, if Helaran wasn’t a Skybreaker, then who? Either the Ghostbloods or the Diagram member.

I personally think the Diagram makes more sense, but the Ghostbloods would be interesting too. I really don’t know, so would be nice if you could provide your opinions on the matter. I will share my thoughts on this.

The Diagram

Pros:

It would perfectly explain the horse and the Shards, also his statements of “we have an important work to do” – it looks very much like how Moash and Graves worded their motives, and also Hoid’s “does things he finds important”, which could be explained as “kid playing revolution”. We also know that Mr T knew about Helaran:

Quote

Jasnah’s ward?” Adrotagia said.

They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl’s brother, before his death.

(btw, I think it’s not about teaching Shallan surgebinding, but about teaching her use her Shardblade)

 Another interesting thing to me is that “Patriots” chapter, in which Kaladin meets Graves follows the chapter in which Hoid tells Shallan about Helaran. It was 3.5 years ago, and then:

Quote

 “Have you any idea the kinds of policies he put into place before Dalinar got him under control?” Danlan asked. “I spent the last three years in Kholinar helping the clerks there sort through the mess he made of the royal codes. There was a time when he’d sign practically anything into law if he was cajoled the right way.”

So we have a chapter, that states that Helaran was in Alethkar 3.5 years ago, and in the next chapter Danlan says she was in Kholinar 3 years ago, and she is a member of the Diagram.

Cons:

It’s still not clear, why Mraize would lie to cover up the Diagram. My assumption is that Mraize’s main bounty is information, and he just doesn’t want to give away a huge chunk of it, when he can give away almost nothing, because Shallan will discover the Skybreakers soon anyway from Szeth/Lift. Also, no clear reason for the Diagram to kill Amaram.

The Ghostbloods

Pros:

Explains why Mraize lies to Shallan about it. Interesting option plot-wise, because it could be that Ghostbloods had sent Helaran to his death on purpose, if they were aware of Kaladin (they were aware of Tien, so we can assume the same about Kaladin).

Cons:

The assault was quite dumb for the Ghostbloods. Doesn’t explain the horse and the Shards. Lin was a member too, and he ordered Helaran’s assassination.

I would like to hear your opinions on the matter, but I regarding the Ghostbloods I would very much appreciate if you tried to avoid spoilers from the other Cosmere books, as I haven't yet read them. I understand, that the Ghostbloods are Cosmere aware guys, but I'm not.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Sedside

[Calderis]

I wouldn't be surprised if Heleran seeking the Skybreaker was a lie, and honestly with the Ghostbloods I'd be surprised if that's the only one. 

As to where he actually ended up... No idea. I just don't think we have enough information. I could absolutely see the Ghostbloods using him and lying about it, Lin didn't seem to be a member so much as a tool, with his steward Luesh being the actual Ghostblood. 

The Diagram... Maybe. I'm hesitant to make that Connection in only the word of Danlan having supposedly been in Kholinar at near the same time by her word alone. 

Heleran's blade was most definitely a dead Shardblade. If it were a living spren, the bond would have ended naturally and the Blade wouldn't have stayed behind. It was dead and able to be picked up by someone else. But I don't think that bars him from attracting a spren. It didn't stop Dalinar or Elhokar.

[Karger]

Heleran's blade was dead I don't think their is any argument against that.  As to why the Skybreakers have dead blades?  Likely for this vary eventuality if one of their agents dies then they do not want the lack of a falling blade to give away their existence.  Also a full Skybreaker might be tempted to use surgbinding in combat so sending one in for this type of kill seems unwise.  As to Amaram not committing any crimes the Skybreakers could easily have found out some kind of technicality that would allow them to kill him.  This is especially true for someone like Amaram who was part of a criminal conspiracy.  When pattern refers to lies he is likely detecting the misleading statements intended to alter Shallan's perceptions so that she starts sympathizing with the ghostbloods and believing what they tell her.

[Sedside]

9 hours ago, Calderis said:

The Diagram... Maybe. I'm hesitant to make that Connection in only the word of Danlan having supposedly been in Kholinar at near the same time by her word alone. 

Heleran's blade was most definitely a dead Shardblade. If it were a living spren, the bond would have ended naturally and the Blade wouldn't have stayed behind. It was dead and able to be picked up by someone else. But I don't think that bars him from attracting a spren. It didn't stop Dalinar or Elhokar.

I don't say Danlan is the only argument for the Diagram. It's just like a cherry on top of the pie, actually. The main reasons are in the post. And I also forgot to mention Helaran's and Davar's overall involvement with Jah Keved politics on the side of Valam, who ended up as King.

I mentioned other Blade versions than the dead one just for the sake of considering all of the options. I think it was dead too.

[Karger]

I don't think the Diagram has large numbers of dead blades around.  Also why would they try and kill Amaram?  They have shown no hostility toward the Sons of Honor even if they do know that they exist which is unclear.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I don't say Danlan is the only argument for the Diagram. It's just like a cherry on top of the pie, actually. The main reasons are in the post. And I also forgot to mention Helaran's and Davar's overall involvement with Jah Keved politics on the side of Valam, who ended up as King. 

I read the whole post. The horse and blade I don't see as evidence. Horses are expensive but can be bought by anyone. Blades aren't as cheaply or easily acquired, but there are a multitude unaccounted for that are either missing, or secret such as Liss' blade. With Heleran's blade being a previously unknown one, it source could be damnation near anything. 

And as for that being evidence against the Skybreakers themselves, the attitudes of the spren are not uniform. Ico says that he is a pragmatist and understands why humans use blades, and he doesn't blame them for doing so. With what little we know of Highspren, why should they feel badly about humans using the blades? There is likely not a rule against it as spren weren't ever supposed to "die" in the first place. 

My reasons for questioning Heleran and the Skybreakers fall more along the reasons of, why would Heleran have ended up in the company of the people who instigated his mother's death in the first place? His main lead back to the Skybreakers that we would be aware of would be the man who died with his mother. 

As I said, I don't know the truth about Heleran, and I don't think we have enough information to truly answer that, though I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the Ghostbloods have lied to Shallan. I just hope that this isn't a thread of the story that's going to die out without further exploration. 

[ScavellTane]

Im not sure if the man with Shallans mother is even associated with the Skybreakers.

[Calderis]

2 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

Im not sure if the man with Shallans mother is even associated with the Skybreakers.

I believe he is. We'd guessed that much prior to OB. I'm not basing that off of Mraizes letter, as much as the reasons we know Shallan's mother tried to kill her. 

[CosmereScholar]

I find myself agreeing with these theories. I've been wondering what the lies in the letter are, and you have convinced me: it does not make sense that Heleran was a Skybreaker acolyte.

[Bigmikey357]

 All the evidence the OP presents makes it sound very likely that Hel wasn't a Skybreaker apprentice; never thought about it until now.

As for his possible employer, I'm pegging the Ghostbloods for it. They deal in information and assassination. They take out people from other secret societies. They have eyes everywhere. They see the world in terms of predators and prey. And they are hellacious recruiters.

Now look at Heleren's activities. Traveling all across Roshar. Access to spies. Going specifically to kill an enemy agent in a way that looks like a nominal battlefield loss. He has no compunction about killing a squad of spearmen who mostly were not opposing him in any way. Another piece of evidence, the Ghostbloods know a lot about some unimportant noble family in the back country. Why would the Ghostbloods waste that kinda time on research? I mean they didn't have to look all that hard to pull up info to try and sway our intrepid Lightweaver. They got some of it from Luesh obviously, but why was he sent there specifically? Does anyone actually think Lin Davar was competent enough to attract the Ghostbloods on his own? No, I think he was sent, that Heleren gave them enough info to whet their appetites, they saw the influence of whatever dark cloud that was hanging over the Davar household, and expanded their knowledge. Either that or they were watching the house because they were keeping tabs on an enemy agent (Shallan's mom and her buddy working for Skybreakers) and the events there made them want to recruit Heleren, tempting him with promises of revenge.

I also think Heleren was misled, lied to about the Ghostbloods' purposes. I'm sure his handler talked a good game, giving him an opportunity for revenge with one hand, promises of great purpose with the other, never knowing he was being played the entire time. 

The Diagram has some of the same characteristics and could supply Heleren with his tools just as easily. They promise great works, noble purpose and give their agents some autonomy. The only reason I don't feel they were Hel's employer is the target. Amaram has seemingly been on the Ghostbloods' kill list for some time. But the Sons' aims don't actually conflict with the Diagram. Killing him makes no sense from their standpoint while the Ghostbloods could be on the hunt for him simply because he's an agent of another organisation.

[ScavellTane]

Then it would be safe to assume that Shallans mother herself is an apprentice Skybreaker, or a would be apprentice.

Edited March 20, 2019 by ScavellTane

[Sedside]

10 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Now look at Heleren's activities. Traveling all across Roshar. Access to spies. Going specifically to kill an enemy agent in a way that looks like a nominal battlefield loss. He has no compunction about killing a squad of spearmen who mostly were not opposing him in any way. Another piece of evidence, the Ghostbloods know a lot about some unimportant noble family in the back country. Why would the Ghostbloods waste that kinda time on research? I mean they didn't have to look all that hard to pull up info to try and sway our intrepid Lightweaver. They got some of it from Luesh obviously, but why was he sent there specifically? Does anyone actually think Lin Davar was competent enough to attract the Ghostbloods on his own? No, I think he was sent, that Heleren gave them enough info to whet their appetites, they saw the influence of whatever dark cloud that was hanging over the Davar household, and expanded their knowledge. Either that or they were watching the house because they were keeping tabs on an enemy agent (Shallan's mom and her buddy working for Skybreakers) and the events there made them want to recruit Heleren, tempting him with promises of revenge.

I also think Heleren was misled, lied to about the Ghostbloods' purposes. I'm sure his handler talked a good game, giving him an opportunity for revenge with one hand, promises of great purpose with the other, never knowing he was being played the entire time.

Thank you for this! This is very interesting. Covering Amaram's death with a battle loss is a good idea. And the whole Davar family economic situation could also be caused by the Ghostbloods through Helaran, he was in contact with Valam's bastard Redin, so he could organize that bad deal, that aggravated their financial state. So it could be that Helaran was recruited by Ghostbloods with the "display of great power and Shards", as you suggest. Then they manipulated him to constantly threat his father. Helaran's threats and Davar's family bankruptcy made Lin search for support outside, so Ghostbloods offered him their help too, and infiltrated their estate with more reliable agents - Luesh and the guards. Helaran has become unnecessary at this point and they decided to get rid of him and sent him to kill Amaram, hoping that Kaladin would kill him, but having plan B with Lin and his order to assassinate Helaran. And yeah, all of that was done to keep one eye on the Unmade, and the second eye on Shallan.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Sedside

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

 As for his possible employer, I'm pegging the Ghostbloods for it. They deal in information and assassination. They take out people from other secret societies. They have eyes everywhere. They see the world in terms of predators and prey. And they are hellacious recruiters.

Then how could Shallan's mnemonic capabilities be unknown to them? And why didn't they try to recruit her earlier? And why did they send another agent with the Soulcaster?

[Sedside]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Then how could Shallan's mnemonic capabilities be unknown to them? And why didn't they try to recruit her earlier? And why did they send another agent with the Soulcaster?

Why do you think her abilities are unknown to them? I don't think Mraize could be unaware that Veil is Shallan from the start. He could just lie to make her feel flattered and lure her deeper with Helaran tidbit. As to recruiting her - perhaps they thought she would come to them on her own when she is ready and willing to. When someone thinks he came to you on his own and that he outplayed you it is much better, then when you asked him to join you. In the latter case you are in a weaker position. Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Denth did kinda the same thing with Vivenna, made her think she came to him on her own, think she was in a driving sit and had control over him, while he was doing his own business all way long.

Agent with the Soulcaster was sent to enter the Davar estate and to research the Unmade. Lin was in need of money, so Ghostbloods gave him what he wanted.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Sedside

[Karger]

I have a hard time believing that Heralan's antipathy toward his father was faked.  This implies that he would never be working with his father meaning they were not on the same side.  We have fairly good evidence that Lin was a ghostblood.  Shallan does notice an increase in his competence during the later years of his life so it is not improbable that he attracted their attention either through skill, his position as a nobleman or because he was somehow bonded to an Unmade(that is my theory). 

 

As to the ghostbloods setting up Heralan to be killed by Kaladin.  The entire idea is impractical.  Kaladin barley manages it and what if Heralan does not approach from Kaladin's side of the battle?  Also don't they have tones of competent assassins at their disposal?  Also how do the ghostbloods know that Kaladin has bonded a spren?  He has not yet sworn any ideals.

[+Child of Hodor]

I don't know where I come down on this, here are my thoughts in random order.  

The Ghostbloods are the only organization we know tried to kill Amaram at least once. They may have done it more than once.  Attempting to kill Amaram in a battle isn't how the Skybreakers usually do it, but maybe it was delegated to Helaran and he freelanced the method.  

"Mother called Shallan one of them" WoR Ch. 89 seems like her mother and her friend influenced by Skybreaker propoganda, I'm not sure what other group has hatred for radiants other than the general distrust most everyone on Roshar has from their betrayal. Murdering an 11-year old isn't in keeping with how they operate. But we've seen a Skybreaker slit Gawk's throat for no reason, so they don't always follow Nale's rules. 

It is in Nale's M.O. to give sprenless new recruits powerful equipment i.e. Szeth. 

Maybe Helaran was a new recruit to the Diagram who the Ghostbloods co-opted. Seems overly complicated though. 

Amaram has never been of interest to the Diagram and he isn't on Szeth's hit list a year after Helaran tried to kill Amaram. I believe the Diagram scoffs at the Sons of Honor's plan and doesn't take it seriously because the SoH fundamentally misunderstand the coming desolation. I don't think Mr. T cared about Amaram.

Quote

"Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia" - WoR Ch. 84 Epigraph

I think Mraize saying the Herald's aren't allies and can't be trusted is one of the lies. He's correct that they aren't reliable, but he spends Oathbringer actively trying to meet one and make a deal with her. He wants to work with or exchange information with Ash, so he trusts one enough to work with a bit. As a means to an end I'm sure, but that's how the Ghostbloods do everything. 

[+Oltux72]

9 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Why do you think her abilities are unknown to them? I don't think Mraize could be unaware that Veil is Shallan from the start. He could just lie to make her feel flattered and lure her deeper with Helaran tidbit.

Then why risk sending her to the bottom of the ocean? The whole assassination of Jasnah on the ship stops making sense.

9 minutes ago, Sedside said:

As to recruiting her - perhaps they thought she would come to them on her own when she is ready and willing to. When someone thinks he came to you on his own and that he outplayed you it is much better, then when you asked him to join you.

A warden of Jasnah Kholin going to the Ghostbloods? They could never be sure of her.

9 minutes ago, Sedside said:

In the latter case you are in a weaker position. Warbreaker spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Denth did kinda the same thing with Vivenna, made her think she came to him on her own, think she was in a driving sit and had control over him, while he was doing his own business all way long.

Agent with the Soulcaster was sent to enter the Davar estate and to research the Unmade. Lin was in need of money, so Ghostbloods gave him what he wanted.

Why would they watch a Radiant who got her sword at an extremely young age so lightly that she can go of to put herself at the disposal of Jasnah Kholin?

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

33 minutes ago, Sedside said:

 

Then why risk sending her to the bottom of the ocean? The whole assassination of Jasnah on the ship stops making sense.

I don't think that the ghostbloods tried to do that Taravangian takes credit for the attempt.

[+Child of Hodor]

This isn’t quite confirmation but the idea that Helaran didn’t join Nale’s skybreakers is raised to Brandon and he says there is only one group calling itself the Skybreakers.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7452

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Child of Hodor

[Pathfinder]

27 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

This isn’t quite confirmation but the idea that Helaran didn’t join Nale’s skybreakers is raised to Brandon and he says there is only one group calling itself the Skybreakers.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/9/#e7452

 

I agree with you on this. I feel the questioner was asking because for a little while people thought that the skybreakers in the books were unpowered individuals who took the name. When it was discovered/confirmed that the radiant order of the skybreakers were very much still a thing, people were wondering if the "mundane" skybreakers were linked to them, or only claimed the name. This to me confirmed they were one in the same, and Helaran's membership was not disputed by Brandon in this WoB, so although not explicit, it is good enough for myself. Though I recognize it would not be enough for others. 

[Sedside]

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

I have a hard time believing that Heralan's antipathy toward his father was faked.  This implies that he would never be working with his father meaning they were not on the same side.

I didn't say it was faked. I think it just was used against him. I'm not sure Lin was a member, he could just use members. And he has joined much later than Helaran.

49 minutes ago, Karger said:

As to the ghostbloods setting up Heralan to be killed by Kaladin.  The entire idea is impractical.  Kaladin barley manages it and what if Heralan does not approach from Kaladin's side of the battle?  Also don't they have tones of competent assassins at their disposal?  Also how do the ghostbloods know that Kaladin has bonded a spren?  He has not yet sworn any ideals.

It was one of the plans. Plan A. Or B. They knew about Tien, why couldn't they send Helaran to test Kaladin?

47 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Then why risk sending her to the bottom of the ocean? The whole assassination of Jasnah on the ship stops making sense.

A warden of Jasnah Kholin going to the Ghostbloods? They could never be sure of her.

Why would they watch a Radiant who got her sword at an extremely young age so lightly that she can go of to put herself at the disposal of Jasnah Kholin?

Sending her to bottom of the ocean is a test, like a carriage driver. It's not like "we need her serve us at all costs". It's like "let's see if she can get out of this mess". If she drowned it would just mean she is not worth the effort.

That's why they don't recruit her, but make her think she is infiltrating them and investigating. And then they get her hooked with little tidbits of what she wants to know and that's it. Her brothers, Helaran, the Unmade and so on.

I don't know why going to Jasnah Kholin is bad from Ghostbloods point of view. I don't also buy their explanation of her assassination. They are not kind of guys who would want a revenge, I think. They are rational. They make use of things.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Sedside said:

It was one of the plans. Plan A. Or B. They knew about Tien, why couldn't they send Helaran to test Kaladin?

Why would they?  I seriously doubt that any windrunner could continence working with an organization like the ghostbloods.  Sure knowing that a surgebinder was around could be useful but is it worth a full set of shards?  If you think about it Kaladin got extremely lucky and used no surgebinding during the battle.  In fact surgebinding would be of limited use against a shardplated opponent.

[Bigmikey357]

The Ghostbloods know many things that they probably should not. But I don't think they knew about Shallan's abilities or they would have chosen a different strategy. They would have known about the Unmade influencing the Davar Household. They would have known Helaran's family history if he worked for them. Helaran could have been working for the Ghostbloods without him ever knowing the hand that guided him or whatever other plots they were hatching. He just wasn't important enough to penetrate the inner circle. I don't believe they knew of Kaladin. We know the Diagram did not anticipate him. Skybreakers either or they surely would have killed him before he reached the Plains. 

I believe that the Ghostbloods knew a girl named Shallan Davar existed, that she was brother to one of their probationary field agents and daughter to one of their pawns. When she popped up on their radar again, now sporting ancient powers and a talent for the work they do, it was a simple matter to pick up her file, read through it and craft a letter to entice her. And since she's a real power in the land they have to offer stronger enticements in the coin she will accept, i.e. information. I find it mighty convenient that upon their discovery of her they knew the exact levers that would move her if they didn't have prior knowledge of Shallan Davar. Luesh could have spoken of House Davar with confidence but only Heleren would know the role she played in her family dynamics. A gift of protection for her family would resonate most strongly with her, a sweetener for the deal.

As the OP states, Heleren does not fit the profile of a Skybreaker of any oath. Too passionate and fiery for one thing. So not likely imo. And the Ghostbloods have reason to obscure the amount of involvement they've had in Shallan's family affairs. That there was some was impossible to conceal. Knowing the Ghostbloods, do they seem the type of group that would rely on only one handle for a recruit?

[Pathfinder]

Point of clarity for both sides. The only person that attempted to send Shallan to the bottom of the ocean was Shallan herself. The plan of the ghostbloods seemed to be to kill all on board, and then make an appearance of a ship wreck (I believe about the ship wreck part, but that I will need to confirm). Shallan was the one that soulcasted it to water sending everyone to the ocean floor. 

 

edit: @Bigmikey357 actually the diagram did predict Kaladin. It said to look to the one that survives when they should not.  

edit2: sorry one last thing @Bigmikey357 before I dig to pull up the scenes I referenced. Skybreakers are all about holding to a code. That personal code does not necessarily have to be the law of the land. WoB backs that up. Also Nale admonished a skybreaker that acted recklessly regarding Lift by killing Gawx. Yet that individual was still considered a member of the skybreakers enough to follow around Nale, and he did not have powers much like Heleran. So I do not think Helaran's possible hotheadedness would exclude him from membership of the skybreakers. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Bigmikey357]

The Diagram predicted emerging Surgebinders and the method to find them. They didn't predict Kaladin specifically but they would have found him using that method if anyone was paying attention to a former slave. I do believe Shallan specifically came up on their radar when she actually gained wardship with Jasnah though.