theory Helaran wasn't involved with the Skybreakers

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

actually the diagram did predict Kaladin. It said to look to the one that survives when they should not.  

Ones.  It had a way of IDing potential radiants.  It was an instruction that told Taravangian where to look not an prediction of Kaladin specifically.  Taravanging did not know where to look until Szeth told him that their was a radiant in protecting Dalinar.

Taravangian seems to think killing Jasnah was his idea and the ghostbloods of shown no knowlege of the diagram's existence(they do not include it in the letter they send Shallan about groups aware that a desolation was happening).

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The Diagram predicted emerging Surgebinders and the method to find them. They didn't predict Kaladin specifically but they would have found him using that method if anyone was paying attention to a former slave. I do believe Shallan specifically came up on their radar when she actually gained wardship with Jasnah though.

Give me some time to pull up the scene, but the line was clearly indicating Kaladin. (at least based on my recollection. will follow up when I get the quote)

Edited March 20, 2019 by Pathfinder

[ScavellTane]

Yeah, it does point to Kaladin. 'Favored of the winds'.

Quote

“No. It’s more.” They had survived. Taravangian stood up. “Wake every Alethi sleeper we have; send every agent in the area. There will be stories told of one of these bridgemen. Miraculous survival. Favored of the winds. One is among them. He might not know yet exactly what he’s doing, but he has bonded a spren and sworn at least the First Ideal.”

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by ScavellTane

[Karger he/him]

10 minutes ago, ScavellTane said:

“No. It’s more.” They had survived. Taravangian stood up. “Wake every Alethi sleeper we have; send every agent in the area. There will be stories told of one of these bridgemen. Miraculous survival. Favored of the winds. One is among them. He might not know yet exactly what he’s doing, but he has bonded a spren and sworn at least the First Ideal.”

He is being dramatic knowing that one of the brdgemen who saved Dalinar's life will should be dead and got realy lucky.  Favored by the winds just is a Rosharn expression that means lucky.  Dalinar says "wish me the wind's favor"

[+robardin he/him]

 

Helaran may or may not have been an acolyte Skybreaker, as claimed by Mraize. I tend to think not. Why would they have "dead" Shards on hand, when as far as we can see, living spren find them an abomination? Or do highspren hot have such a reaction?

 

We also see other Skybreaker acolytes from Szeth's POV, and they certainly aren't being given Full Shards as part of their testing. (Szeth being given Nightblood is obviously an exceptional special case, but he was kind of "pre-ordained" by Nale himself.)

And given what we've seen it takes to impress Nale... What did Heleran do, exactly?

But here's another thought that may lead to a better idea about Helaran: what group was behind Shallan's mother trying to kill her as a child? I think that is one of the biggest lies in Mraize's letter.

That's a related but tangential line of thought, I'm going to start another thread on that topic (there doesn't seem to be a current one)

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Ones.  It had a way of IDing potential radiants.  It was an instruction that told Taravangian where to look not an prediction of Kaladin specifically.  Taravanging did not know where to look until Szeth told him that their was a radiant in protecting Dalinar.

Taravangian seems to think killing Jasnah was his idea and the ghostbloods of shown no knowlege of the diagram's existence(they do not include it in the letter they send Shallan about groups aware that a desolation was happening).

I think they do know about the Diagram or that Taravangian is behind Szeth's recent assassinations at least. Mraize seems to dismiss Taravangian out of hand, but is close to figuring out Tezim is Ishar. 

Quote

"No, I'm not worried about that one. The old fool sows chaos, but does not reach for the power offered by opportunity. He hides in his insignificant city, listening to it's songs, thinking he plays in world events. He has no idea. His is not the position of the hunter. This creature in Tukar, however, is different. I'm not convinced he is human. If he is, he's certainly not of the local species ..." - WoR Ch. 54

This was before Mr. T became king of Jah Keved. He was still only ruler of his island city. 

[Karger he/him]

Perhaps that is the lie that Shallan's is being told the letter  only mentions two groups(we know of three).

[Pathfinder]

So got both quotes. I have included them in the spoiler tags below with my commentary on each. 

First regarding sinking the ship. It appears their only intention was to kill Jasnah and any crew that could finger them. Shallan was the one that sunk the ship. They wanted Jasnah's works in one piece. 

Spoiler

 

Words of radiance page 388

In regards to your mission in Amydlatn, it read, our benefactors have written to say that they are pleased. They do want to know if you recovered the information, but I think this is secondary to them. They let slip that they’ve found the information they need elsewhere, something about a city they’ve been researching. For your part, there is no news of the target surviving. It seems that your worry about the mission’s failure is unfounded. Whatever happened aboard the ship, it worked to our favor. The Wind’s Pleasure is reported lost with all hands. Jasnah Kholin is dead. Jasnah Kholin is dead.

 

 

Second, although winds favor and such can mean lucky, I think it is of note that 1. Szeth only told Taravangian that the man he fought could heal, 2. Taravangian had the diagram pulled out and was reading through it and 3. this was well after Kaladin survived being strung up in the storm and everyone began referring to him as stormblessed once more. So to me that is a little too on the nose considering Kaladin's moniker for it to be an accident of expression, especially since Taravangian has the diagram open right in front of him, but I guess that portion is open to interpretation. Scene quoted below:

Spoiler

 

Words of radiance page 913

“Kholin has a Surgebinder,” Szeth said. So, Szeth knew about Jasnah. Had she faked her death, then, as he’d suspected? Damnation. The battlefield seemed to grow still. To Taravangian, the moans of the wounded faded away. Everything narrowed to just him and Szeth. Those eyes. The tone of the man’s voice. A dangerous tone. What— He spoke with emotion, Taravangian realized. That last sentence was said with passion. It had sounded like a plea. As if Szeth’s voice were being squeezed on the sides. This man was not sane. Szeth-son-son-Vallano was the most dangerous weapon on all of Roshar, and he was broken. Storms, why couldn’t this have happened on a day when Taravangian had more than half a wit? “What makes you say this?” Taravangian said, trying to buy time for his mind to lumber through the implications. He held Szeth’s Oathstone before him, almost as if it could chase away problems like a superstitious woman’s glyphward. “I fought him,” Szeth said. “He protected Kholin.” “Ah, yes,” Taravangian said, thinking furiously. Szeth had been banished from Shinovar, made Truthless for something relating to a claim that the Voidbringers had returned. If he discovered that he wasn’t wrong about that claim, then what— Him? “You fought a Surgebinder?” Adrotagia said, glancing at Taravangian. “Yes,” Szeth said. “An Alethi man who fed upon Stormlight. He healed a Blade-severed arm. He is . . . Radiant . . .” That strain in his voice did not sound safe. Taravangian glanced at Szeth’s hands. They were clenching into fists time and time again, like hearts beating. “No, no,” Taravangian said. “I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now. One of the Honorblades has vanished.” Szeth blinked, and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. “One of the other seven?” “Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.” Szeth swayed back and forth, though he did not seem conscious of the motion. Even now, he moved with a fighter’s grace. Storms. “This man I fought,” Szeth said, “he summoned no Blade.” “But he used Stormlight,” Taravangian said. “Yes.” “So he must have an Honorblade.” “I . . .” “It is the only explanation.” “It . . .” Szeth’s voice grew colder. “Yes, the only explanation. I will kill him and retrieve it.” “No,” Taravangian said firmly. “You are to return to Dalinar Kholin and do the task assigned you. Do not fight this other man. Attack when he is not present.” “But—” “Have I your Oathstone?” Taravangian demanded. “Is my word to be questioned?” Szeth stopped swaying. His gaze locked with Taravangian’s. “I am Truthless. I do as my master requires, and I do not ask for an explanation.” “Stay away from the man with the Honorblade,” Taravangian repeated. “Kill Dalinar.” “It will be done.” Szeth turned and strode away. Taravangian wanted to yell further instructions. Don’t be seen! Don’t ever come to me in public again! Instead, he sat right there on the path, composure crumbling. He gasped, trembling, sweat streaming down his brow. “Stormfather,” Adrotagia said, settling on the ground beside him. “I thought we were dead.” Servants brought Taravangian a chair while Mrall made excuses for him. The king is overcome with grief at the deaths of so many. He is old, you know. And so caring . . . Taravangian breathed in and out, struggling to regain control. He looked to Adrotagia, who sat in the middle of a circle of servants and soldiers, all sworn to the Diagram. “Who is it?” he asked softly. “Who is this Surgebinder?” “Jasnah’s ward?” Adrotagia said. They had been startled when that one arrived on the Shattered Plains. Already they hypothesized that the girl had been trained. If not by Jasnah, then by the girl’s brother, before his death. “No,” Taravangian said. “A male. One of Dalinar’s family members?” He thought for a time. “We need the Diagram itself.” She went to fetch it from the ship. Nothing else—his visits to the soldiers, more important meetings with Veden leaders—mattered right now. The Diagram was off. They strayed into dangerous territory. She returned with it, and with the stormwardens, who set up a tent around Taravangian right there on the path. Excuses continued. The king is weak from the sun. He must rest and burn glyphwards to the Almighty for the preservation of your nation. Taravangian cares while your own lighteyes sent you to the slaughter . . . By the light of spheres, Taravangian picked through the tome, poring over translations of his own words written in a language he had invented and then forgotten. Answers. He needed answers. “Did ever I tell you, Adro, what I asked for?” he whispered as he read. “Yes.” He was barely listening. “Capacity,” he whispered, turning a page. “Capacity to stop what was coming. The capacity to save humankind.” He searched. He was not brilliant today, but he had spent many days reading these pages, going over, and over, and over passages. He knew them. The answers would be here. They would. Taravangian worshipped only one god now. It was the man he had been on that day. There. He found it on a reproduction of one corner of his room, where he’d written in tiny script sentences over the top of one another because he’d run out of space. In his clarity of genius, the sentences had looked easy to separate, but it had taken his scholars years to piece together what this said. They will come. You cannot stop their oaths. Look for those who survive when they should not. That pattern will be your clue. “The bridgemen,” Taravangian whispered. “What?” Adrotagia asked. Taravangian looked up, blinking bleary eyes. “Dalinar’s bridgemen, the ones he took from Sadeas. Did you read the account of their survival?” “I didn’t think it important. Just another game of power between Sadeas and Dalinar.” “No. It’s more.” They had survived. Taravangian stood up. “Wake every Alethi sleeper we have; send every agent in the area. There will be stories told of one of these bridgemen. Miraculous survival. Favored of the winds. One is among them. He might not know yet exactly what he’s doing, but he has bonded a spren and sworn at least the First Ideal.”

 

 

Finally does anyone need me to post the WoB regarding Skybreakers focusing on personal codes vs laws, or the scene with Gawx? Will be happy to, just will need to a moment to pull it up. 

[Calderis he/him]

@Pathfinder the quote you shared shows explicitly that Taravangian does no know that it is Kaladin specifically, and does not say that "Favored of the winds" is from the Diagram itself.

The portion that Taravangian reads is this 

Quote

They will come. You cannot stop their oaths. Look for those who survive when they should not. That pattern will be your clue.

Everything following that is his own mind, showing that, as usual, they underestimate what he is capable of on his lower intelligence days. 

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder the quote you shared shows explicitly that Taravangian does no know that it is Kaladin specifically, and does not say that "Favored of the winds" is from the Diagram itself.

The portion that Taravangian reads is this 

Everything following that is his own mind, showing that, as usual, they underestimate what he is capable of on his lower intelligence days. 

The portion I am referring to is shown below and bolded for emphasis. He reviewed the whole section of the diagram. I think it could be interpreted that he read to himself a portion, and then continued towards Adro. Though as I said I acknowledge it can be interpreted otherwise. 

 

 “No,” Taravangian said. “A male. One of Dalinar’s family members?” He thought for a time. “We need the Diagram itself.” She went to fetch it from the ship. Nothing else—his visits to the soldiers, more important meetings with Veden leaders—mattered right now. The Diagram was off. They strayed into dangerous territory. She returned with it, and with the stormwardens, who set up a tent around Taravangian right there on the path. Excuses continued. The king is weak from the sun. He must rest and burn glyphwards to the Almighty for the preservation of your nation. Taravangian cares while your own lighteyes sent you to the slaughter . . . By the light of spheres, Taravangian picked through the tome, poring over translations of his own words written in a language he had invented and then forgotten. Answers. He needed answers.

[Calderis he/him]

@Pathfinder I understand that. I still think the text is straightforward.

Quote

The answers would be here. They would. Taravangian worshipped only one god now. It was the man he had been on that day.
There.
He found it on a reproduction of one corner of his room, where he’d written in tiny script sentences over the top of one another because he’d run out of space. In his clarity of genius, the sentences had looked easy to separate, but it had taken his scholars years to piece together what this said.
They will come. You cannot stop their oaths. Look for those who survive when they should not. That pattern will be your clue.
“The bridgemen,” Taravangian whispered.
“What?” Adrotagia asked.
Taravangian looked up, blinking bleary eyes. “Dalinar’s bridgemen, the ones he took from Sadeas. Did you read the account of their survival?”
“I didn’t think it important. Just another game of power between Sadeas and Dalinar.”
“No. It’s more.” They had survived. Taravangian stood up. “Wake every Alethi sleeper we have; send every agent in the area. There will be stories told of one of these bridgemen. Miraculous survival. Favored of the winds. One is among them. He might not know yet exactly what he’s doing, but he has bonded a spren and sworn at least the First Ideal.”

He was searching the Diagram for a clue to answer the question, it is then found and explicitly quoted in the text. 

Everything after is his reaction to what was found. 

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Pathfinder I understand that. I still think the text is straightforward.

He was searching the Diagram for a clue to answer the question, it is then found and explicitly quoted in the text. 

Everything after is his reaction to what was found. 

And in his reaction he is making reference to what he just read. Miraculous survival. Favored of the winds. I respect that you think the text is straightforward in how you read it. i think it is straightforward in how I read it as well. I will agree to disagree. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

The point is that the Diagram does not explicitly know about Kaladin.  In OB we learn that the diagram warns that the personalities of the radiant introduce great uncertainty into the equation. 

[The Ryshadium]

It's possible that Helaran joined the Skybreakers and made it to the third ideal. The sword is definitely dead, but who's to say he didn't break his oaths and add a gemstone later? Or maybe he didn't have a spren yet and was just given a shardblade. I admit, this seems pretty unlikely..........

[+Child of Hodor]

Nale let’s his minions do dumb, dangerous things so Helaran charging into a battle to kill Amaram isn’t totally out of character.

In Edgedancer he let’s his two radiants unwitting pick a fight they can’t win against a Sleepless. 

Im not sure their bodies were cold before Nale was like “OK, I’ll go kill the actual surgebinder now.”  Lift rushes from Arclo to the orphanage and Nale is already there. 

Like he knew the whole time and was letting them fail on their own.

[Karger he/him]

Perhaps he was not monitoring that case closely and did not recognize the signs of a sleepless.  Instead he went on a different mission.