The Dark Basis of Era 4

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

So the main purpose in building an Awakened machine is that once it comes online one never has to refuel it. A valid argument except for one thing. Maintenance. Machines break down due to the stresses placed upon it due to continued operations. Something as complex as a powerplant used to run a city needs constant tending. Some of those maintenance protocols could be handled if the machine was made self aware but it's my understanding that only simple commands can be given to Awakened entities or the process goes pear-shaped. Nightblood is the example. 

Note that this analysis is based only on what we know of Biochromia so far. That's only one magic system in a very localized area of Nalthis. I'm sure Endowment magic has other forms it could take. Other forms mean other applications. Maybe we'll see a few someday.

[Truthless of Shinovar he/him]

We know that Era 4 will be have space travel in it, so it isn't unlikely that hemalurgy will somehow be use to fuel the spaceships. Do you guys have any idea on how it could be done? Maybe a larger, stronger version of the ship we see in BoM?

Edited March 20, 2019 by Truthless of Shinovar

[Calderis he/him]

There's also the problem of potential breath degradation. While it's not mentioned in the book, it may be addressed in the future. 

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DavidB

Also, it seems to me like it would be more internally consistent if Awakened objects consumed Breath, to make all of these Breath-consuming powers in the last few chapters fit in better. So for example, if Vasher Awakened a shirt and left it Awakened and doing stuff for a day, then he might be down one-seventh of a breath when he took it back at the end of the day. (Of course, that mechanic requires it to be possible to transfer or Awaken with portions of a Breath, and if you could do that, then using the "putting the Breaths you don't want to transfer into a cloth until after the transfer" thing, you could feed the Returned by taking a tiny fraction of all the Halladren's breaths, instead of taking some people's entire Breaths and turning them into Drabs.)

Brandon Sanderson

Hum. I like that suggestion, actually. I think I'll use it. Though, what I'll do is say that if you leave the breath in for too long, one of them vanishes. If you can get them back quickly enough, however, there is no loss. That gives a bit of a better explanation of why there aren't a lot of awakened objects doing things all over the place. True, using the breath to make them would be initially expensive--but if you got a magic object that never winds down, then that might be worth the expense.

TWG Posts (May 3, 2007)

It's not Canon yet, because it's not in the book... But there should be Awakened objects running around everywhere from long dead Awakeners if it isn't true. 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

There's also the problem of potential breath degradation. While it's not mentioned in the book, it may be addressed in the future. 

It's not Canon yet, because it's not in the book... But there should be Awakened objects running around everywhere from long dead Awakeners if it isn't true. 

Isn't awakening fairly new by Cosmere standards? If I remember correctly the events in Warbreaker happen about 300 years after Awakening started being studied.

Personally I don't like the idea of Breath being fuel. I've always looked at it more as a key. If you have the breath, you gain access to Investiture from the SR. The more you have, the more Investiture you get. It's a bit like metal, except that it doesn't need to be consumed, it just grants a passive stream of power from the SR.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Isn't awakening fairly new by Cosmere standards? If I remember correctly the events in Warbreaker happen about 300 years after Awakening started being studied.

Personally I don't like the idea of Breath being fuel. I've always looked at it more as a key. If you have the breath, you gain access to Investiture from the SR. The more you have, the more Investiture you get. It's a bit like metal, except that it doesn't need to be consumed, it just grants a passive stream of power from the SR.

It's not though. The breath is itself the Investiture.

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Questioner

I know that there's three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?

Brandon Sanderson

Breath is definitely like mist, it is in the form of the air.

Questioner

And is Stormlight the same?

Brandon Sanderson

Stormlight is the same.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's not though. The breath is itself the Investiture.

 

But it isn't fuel. Fuel burns away. So where does the power come from?

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

But it isn't fuel. Fuel burns away. So where does the power come from?

That's the reason for color drain. Color is consumed, an intent is placed upon the Investiture, and the Investiture acts as muscles and tendons to enact that intent. 

But we know fully that breath can be consumed, both by the Returned, and to fuel other systems. The slow consumption of breath in an object would be more internally consistent as the questioner suggests to Brandon, and Brandon agrees. 

Breaths degrade inside a person over the course of their life. Being in stasis in an object has always bothered me. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Calderis

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Just now, Calderis said:

That's the reason for color drain. Color is consumed, an intent is placed upon the Investiture, and the Investiture acts as muscles and tendons to enact that intent. 

But we know fully that breath ca be consumed, both by the Returned, and to fuel other systems. The slow consumption of breath in an object would be more internally consistent as the questioner suggests to Brandon, and Brandon agrees. 

Breaths degrade inside a person over the course of their life. Being in stasis in an object has always bothered me. 

Could you link the WoB that says breath decays? I don't remember that from the book. I wasn't talking about the machanics of being Returned, they obviously consume Investiture to say alive. I also wasn't saying that Breath isn't Investiture, it clearly is. The WoB you linked before doesn't really say anything about how Breath works, it basically just discusses phase states.

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Could you link the WoB that says breath decays? I don't remember that from the book. I wasn't talking about the machanics of being Returned, they obviously consume Investiture to say alive. I also wasn't saying that Breath isn't Investiture, it clearly is. The WoB you linked before doesn't really say anything about how Breath works, it basically just discusses phase states.

It's not a WoB. It's in the book. It's the reason they give Returned breath from children. They are more vibrant and stronger. 

The heightenings are not set numbers. They're averages because the strength of a single breath varies. 

[Lidolas he/him]

57 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's not a WoB. It's in the book. It's the reason they give Returned breath from children. They are more vibrant and stronger. 

The heightenings are not set numbers. They're averages because the strength of a single breath varies. 

Huh, hadn't picked that up.  Interesting.

I thought Brandon's team was working on a conversion table of sorts to compare investiture between systems and that they were planning on using Breaths as the base because it was the most....stable(?) uniform(?) 

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Lidolas said:

Huh, hadn't picked that up.  Interesting.

I thought Brandon's team was working on a conversion table of sorts to compare investiture between systems and that they were planning on using Breaths as the base because it was the most....stable(?) uniform(?) 

It is. It's still variable. But there is an average strength, and that's what the heightening numbers are based off of. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So the main purpose in building an Awakened machine is that once it comes online one never has to refuel it.

It is also hugely simplified. An awakened power plant is essentially reduced to the generator. No boilers, turbines or gears.

5 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

A valid argument except for one thing. Maintenance. Machines break down due to the stresses placed upon it due to continued operations. Something as complex as a powerplant used to run a city needs constant tending.

Because it is complex. Sure if you have a mechanical iron feruchemist you can make a wheel turn. But you cannot just tell it "rotate with this speed when touched on the top". You need controls and sensors for orientation and so on.

 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

It is. It's still variable. But there is an average strength, and that's what the heightening numbers are based off of. 

Ok, I went back and found what you are referring to. I'm assuming it is the part in the annotations for chapter three where it discusses why they use a child.

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Why a child? It doesn't matter much, truthfully. An adult, or even someone elderly, could provide a Breath that would keep a god alive.

But Breaths of those who are aged aren't as vigorous as those of those who are young. If Lightsong was given one of those to feed on, he'd survive for another week-but he wouldn't feel as vibrant or alive as he does after feeding on the Child's Breath.

It explicitly says that the Breaths have the same power. It just says that the Breath of a younger person makes him plucky.

Edited March 20, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Calderis he/him]

26 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

It explicitly says that the Breaths have the same power. It just says that the Breath of a younger person makes him plucky.

No it does not. 

"the Breaths of those who are aged aren't as vigorous" 

It will still let him survive for a week, but they are not the same strength. 

Regardless of your agreement on that line, you can't argue with the Ars Arcanum. 

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Note Three: The numbers given in the table above are only estimates, as very little is known about the upper Heightenings. Indeed, even for the lower levels, fewer or more Breaths may be required to achieve a given Heightening, depending on circumstances and the strength of the Breath.

Breath strength varies. 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

No it does not. 

"the Breaths of those who are aged aren't as vigorous" 

It will still let him survive for a week, but they are not the same strength.

I'm not sure I follow. It says that it doesn't matter who he gets the breath from, it will last just as long. That's the fuel part of the scenario, how long it lasts. I obviously can't speak for why a child's Breath would make him more vibrant, but I assume it is because the Breath carries a small piece of Identity or Connection from the person that last held it. Children are, generally (I'm looking at you Vin), untainted by the cynicism and bitterness that comes with the responsibility and experience of adulthood.

15 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Regardless of your agreement on that line, you can't argue with the Ars Arcanum. 

Breath strength varies. 

Can't argue with that. It does not however say why they vary, so the part about it being related to age is still speculation. I am curious what the "circumstances" are that would vary the heightening.

Edited March 20, 2019 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Calderis he/him]

@SwordNimiForPresident Returned feed at set intervals. The strength of the Breath does not matter.

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Brandon Sanderson

Siri Enters and Sees Returned

Just a little note here. Returned live for eight days without a Breath, though the week is seven days long in this world. Why? Well, I figured that they'd need an extra day as leeway. On day seven, they start to grow weak and sluggish. If they don't consume a Breath, their body will consume their own on the eighth day of their life, and they'll die again.

In some parts of this world, Returned aren't worshipped, but instead seen as something akin to vampires. They draw in Breath to survive, and need a supply of people to feed off of. They tend to wear black, since it's the most powerful color for draining to Awaken things.

Warbreaker Annotations (Sept. 16, 2010)

A weaker breath doesn't sustain them for a shorter period, or a longer period for stronger. It's 7 days per breath. The only difference is how "plucky" they are, in your words. 

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

@SwordNimiForPresident Returned feed at set intervals. The strength of the Breath does not matter.

A weaker breath doesn't sustain them for a shorter period, or a longer period for stronger. It's 7 days per breath. The only difference is how "plucky" they are, in your words. 

OK, last loophole since I just realized how off topic I am. Ars Arcanum is an in-world text, which means that it is subject to the same potential for errors that Brandon applies to all in-world knowledge. That being said, I don't imagine Khriss is wrong. It would be borderline cruel to include that in the text just to mess with us.

[Inky]

Khriss has been wrong before

[Calderis he/him]

2 minutes ago, Inky said:

Khriss has been wrong before

Yes she has, about information that was unavailable at the time. 

I'm not aware of her being wrong on something that basic and general as "this number varies" 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Ok. I build an Awakened engine. A simple engine, very few moving parts, yet theoretically capable of generating enough power to run a large city. Let's just assume something of that nature could be accomplished. Even with simple machines the parts will wear out eventually. Replacement parts will be needed and would have to be installed. @Calderis brought up that the Breath involved will have to be reinvested as well. So great. Free energy for everyone. Well, not exactly. Power generation is only part of the equation. Power distribution plays its role as well. That'll have to be controlled as a power grid is not static, usage fluctuates. A simple machine that simply generates power isn't going to serve the needs of the people efficiently unless regulated. Simple. Automation. Give the engine commands. If this happens then perform this action and so forth. But there's a problem. The more complex the command the more likely something goes wonky because the Awakener isn't adequately conceptualizing what the machine needs to do in order to carry out the command. Also, what are you actually awakening? The entire powerplant or all the individual components? This simple power generator gets orders of magnitude less simple as we consider the engineering problems. 

But just for the heck of it, let's say all of these issues can be fixed and you have a working powerplant. Populations aren't static either. What happens when the power needs of the citizens of this magical city begin to outstrip the simple powerplant's capacity? Building the first powerplant took an enormous amount of Breaths. Adding to that machine is going to be impossible if you wanna maintain whatever limited simplicity you've managed to keep. So build another powerplant you say? It took a million breaths to build the first one, I need to come up with a million more just so the neighborhood doesn't have a blackout anytime I wanna watch a movie on my desktop? That's a tall flipping order my friend. Everyone has seeds of magic on Nalthis but these engines would seem to tax even their capacity. There's going to be many people clamoring for a system that isn't taking up the soul essence of entire populations.

Now let's go to Scadrial, another place where the seeds of magic are inborn. However, getting those powers to manifest in a usable way is vastly more difficult there. Nobody is asking an Iron Ferring to turn a wheel or plow a field or any number of mundane tasks. There are machines that could perform those tasks much less expensively. The peeps of Scadrial are gonna ask that guy to do things only an Iron Ferring can do. Like charge the devices that make life easier and less labor intensive. Maybe step in temporarily when those devices fail. I won't be making perpetual motion machines with this system. What I will be able to do is easily respond to the needs of a dynamic population and an ever-growing need for energy.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

8 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Now let's go to Scadrial, another place where the seeds of magic are inborn. However, getting those powers to manifest in a usable way is vastly more difficult there. Nobody is asking an Iron Ferring to turn a wheel or plow a field or any number of mundane tasks. There are machines that could perform those tasks much less expensively. The peeps of Scadrial are gonna ask that guy to do things only an Iron Ferring can do. Like charge the devices that make life easier and less labor intensive. Maybe step in temporarily when those devices fail. I won't be making perpetual motion machines with this system. What I will be able to do is easily respond to the needs of a dynamic population and an ever-growing need for energy.

But that boils down to one power being better than the other because it´s worse.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

@Oltux72 

Not at all. It's about using the right tool for the job. Just like you wouldn't use a hammer to turn a bolt doesn't make a hammer a bad tool or a wrench a better tool. If my aim was to build a technologically advanced civ using magic to augment it, Biochromia wouldn't be my first choice. Hell, the Metallic Arts wouldn't be my first choice due to the ethical conundrums involved. Fabrial Technology would be my first option for that. Meanwhile, if I wanted to be immortal I'd pick Biochromia hands down.