Shardplate Theories

[Wyndlerunner]

I personally feel that a combination of the proto-radiant spren theory and the solidified stormlight theory is the best option. Especially given the fact that Kaladin attracts Windspren in Shadesmar (no easy feat) right before he attempts to speak the fourth oath (associated with gaining Shardplate in the Windrunners according to the Gemstone Archive)

However, the "geometric outlines" described in Jasnah's experience, don't seem to match the feel of the cousin spren idea. However given that we know investiture generally follows the general phases of matter; it seems to me that stormlight as most often described, is the gaseous form of Honor's investiture (akin to the mists). So it makes sense that the lesser spren act as a catalyst for a sort of crystallization process for Stormlight. 

[Ciridae]

I think the key are the geometric shapes we see around both Dalinar and Jasnah, as well as the fact that ancient Plate had glowing joints. I think those two are essentially the same thing, and then the gaps are filled with crystallized stormlight. Modern day plate is regrown with stormlight, so that seems like a pretty safe guess. But the stormlight has to know to harden along a mold or frame, and that mold still exists, even if it doesn't glow anymore. So there seems to be an invisible blueprint that exists independently from the actual hardened Plate, that used to be visible and glowing. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Ciridae

[Wyndlerunner]

16 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I think the key are the geometric shapes we see around both Dalinar and Jasnah, as well as the fact that ancient Plate had glowing joints. I think those two are essentially the same thing, and then the gaps are filled with crystallized stormlight. Modern day plate is regrown with stormlight, so that seems like a pretty safe guess. But the stormlight has to know to harden along a mold or frame, and that mold still exists, even if it doesn't glow anymore. So there seems to be an invisible blueprint that exists independently from the actual hardened Plate, that used to be visible and glowing. 

Do you suppose the lesser spren act as the framework? Because that makes sense to me, that the lesser spren direct where the stormlight solidifys, given that stormlight is (highly likely) not sentient.

Overall, this theory makes a lot of sense to me.

[Ciridae]

33 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

Do you suppose the lesser spren act as the framework? Because that makes sense to me, that the lesser spren direct where the stormlight solidifys, given that stormlight is (highly likely) not sentient.

Overall, this theory makes a lot of sense to me.

I don't know... It makes sense that the lesser spren are involved somehow, since they show up so regularly. If it weren't for the scene on Notum's ship when Kaladin attracts windspren thinking about the fourth ideal, I would say they don't have anything to do with plate or ideals and are just attracted to powerful Surgebinding by their assisciated order, like when Kaladin made that pocket in the storm to save those people, or when Lift makes a tree grow. 

But since that scene exists I'm not so sure. I don't like it very much, but I think it's likely that the spren are what that frame is composed of. What doesn't jive with me is that if the joints are actually lesser spen, they must be dead, or asleep or something, since they don't behave like ancient Plate did. Maybe the reason Radiants don't hear screams when touching Plate is that they have only been touching the crystallized Stormlight sections, and the dead or sleeping spren frame is hanging out in the spiritual or cognitive realm. Sad that we've never seen Plate from Shadesmar, I think that could give us some hints. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Ciridae

[CrazyRioter]

Seeing the Plate from Shadesmar would absolutely give us some hints, which is why it hasn't happened yet.

[Wyndlerunner]

6 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said:

Seeing the Plate from Shadesmar would absolutely give us some hints, which is why it hasn't happened yet.

True that! I lean heavily on the secrets of Plate being revealed next book. Brandon can't hide the truth forever!

[+Child of Hodor]

56 minutes ago, Wyndlerunner said:

Do you suppose the lesser spren act as the framework? Because that makes sense to me, that the lesser spren direct where the stormlight solidifys, given that stormlight is (highly likely) not sentient.

Overall, this theory makes a lot of sense to me.

EDIT: I think the geometric lines are the strongest argument for stormlight instead of lesser spren, because it is significantly different from how the blade typically just appears out of of mist. Like they are measuring and then filling it in. Although, since it is plate, they may need to be more careful as to not crush their radiant, measure before fully transforming. 

My question is what is the difference between what Stormlight is and what spren are made of? Aren't they both investiture, one has cognition the other doesn't? Why would one type of investiture become an unbreakable metal while the other is breakable?  

Investiture gains intelligence over time if left alone. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/134/#e2253  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181/#e3776

Perhaps Stormlight is 100% honor investiture while some spren are a mix of H+C, does that matter? Is the blade an alloy that's stronger? If so, wouldn't the blades have different strengths since the various spren have different % makeups of the two investitures?

If the only real difference is cognition or level of intelligence then I think the smarter radiant spren directly forming an unbreakable metal while the much dumber secondary spren transform into the weaker metal is the simpler more straightforward method. 

Why does it need to be this extra step? Why would the dumber spren be the ones to take up crafting separate objects instead of just transforming to protect the radiant they are drawn to. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Child of Hodor

[Calderis]

@Child of Hodor I agree. The framework being generated by the Radiant themselves is actually the only way that I could see the spren being the actual material. I'll quote @Yata's proposition from the edit in my thread.

Quote

An additional spren theory, put forward by @Yata on discord that I actually really like. 

The Radiant creates the framework that we see with Stormlight, and the Spren enter, and are not stripped of their own identity, and not bonded, but seeded with investiture from the Spren and Radiant, similar to what Sja-anat has done to Glys. 

They aren't killed, and they aren't bonded, but become in essence the bonded pairs "children" as Glys is Sja-anat's son. 

Per this WoB, the Radiant and their bonded Spren are becoming one individual spiritually, with two minds.

Quote

yulerule (Paraphrased)

I also asked about the connection between the spren and Surgebinder, such that the spren turns into what the Surgebinder wants. Like in Edgedancer, [Wyndle] turns into a bar of metal and into a Shardfork. Wyndle himself isn't "in tune" with Lift, so his turning into something that she needs with no prior warning...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, they actually mix. When the bonding is happening, what's happening is that the gaps in the souls are being filled with the spren's <essence>. And they are actually melding into one 

yulerule

*inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

And they are actually melding into one individual *inaudible*.

yulerule

<And the minds are separate?>

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, mhm.

If the Spren and Radiant are one individual, then their identity should be matched. Seeding the power of the Spren into the lesser spren should create the "familiarity" that @Pagerunner mentions.

Even still... Until we have more information, that's pretty tenuous. 

[ScavellTane]

Anybody think that the geometric shape appears because the plate couldn't be formed due to unknown issues.

[Wyndlerunner]

Just now, ScavellTane said:

Anybody think that the geometric shape appears because the plate couldn't be formed due to unknown issues.

Error 404: your Plate could not be reached

[02ranger]

22 hours ago, Calderis said:

@02ranger the problem there, is that in completely disassociatinf the plate from the Radiant, you create the Identity issue that is still my main problem.

The plate is keyed to the Radiants Identity. That is why it will allow their Surges to pass, and only their Surges. We've seen this phenomena in other magics.

If there is no shared Identity with the Radiant, then plate should block all Surges, or none. And if there is shared Identity... That should mean either the Radiant themselves are somehow the source of the plates Investiture, or the thing that makes it is so interconnected with the Radiant that their Investiture and the radiants are indistinguishable... Neither of those should be the case with unbonded lesser spren. 

I'm not sure there's an issue with Identity with either of my first two theories because the lesser spren would be controlled by either the Bladespren (theory 1) or the Radiant (theory 2) and that should be enough to key the Plate into their identity. Again, it's been a while since I read Oathbringer and I've only read it once so I very well could be forgetting something.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, 02ranger said:

I'm not sure there's an issue with Identity with either of my first two theories because the lesser spren would be controlled by either the Bladespren (theory 1) or the Radiant (theory 2) and that should be enough to key the Plate into their identity. Again, it's been a while since I read Oathbringer and I've only read it once so I very well could be forgetting something.

Controlling the spren should not remove their Identity and replace it with the radiants. That implies a very deep Connection. Just like what happens between the Radiant and the Nahel spren. In which case, we get right back to the issue of plate not screaming and spren not seeming to care about it at all. 

[+Child of Hodor]

28 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Controlling the spren should not remove their Identity and replace it with the radiants. That implies a very deep Connection. Just like what happens between the Radiant and the Nahel spren. In which case, we get right back to the issue of plate not screaming and spren not seeming to care about it at all. 

Not screaming because the lesser spren are mostly mute. But, yeah why doesn't Syl care about plate? Because they protect instead of kill? I would still be creeped out if someone wore a suit made up of my cousin's corpses.