Karger he/him Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 This has been bugging me for a while but after listening to Shardcast and looking throughout this site I have found only one theory about what shardplate is and how it was made. I am not doubting the coolness of the lesser spren form shardplate at the command of a radiant theory but the fact that no one seems to have come up with any other thoery that will stand up to scrutiny is unacceptable. I am creating this thread so that any who have other theories may give them publicity and submit them to review and I would like for us as a community to try and work at least one theory into a form that would work. Come on members of the 17th shard! What have you got? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 There was a theory that it wasn't the lesser spren that make it, but the advancing oaths allow the bonded spren to spread itself further out into forming both Blade and Plate. I can't find the thread, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted March 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 If the spren can spread out then why are their no shard shields? Anyone have a good answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 I don't have a theory for what it is... I lean towards crystallized stormlight in a framework that the spren facilitate making... But I'm fairly well against the idea that it is spren. There is one idea for spren actually being the plate that @Yata proposed that I could support, but without further information I'm not sold yet. Rather than type them all out, I'll link. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter she/her Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 I doubt it's the result of the Radiant's spren spreading out, or else Syl would have the same issues with Plate as she has with the Blades, and the Plate would also scream. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Invocation Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, CrazyRioter said: I doubt it's the result of the Radiant's spren spreading out, or else Syl would have the same issues with Plate as she has with the Blades, and the Plate would also scream. I don't agree with it either, I was just noting its existence. 18 minutes ago, Karger said: If the spren can spread out then why are their no shard shields? Anyone have a good answer? I have no idea. I just figured I'd note the fact that it exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 Yeah, it's definitely not the Nahel spren itself spreading out... Otherwise this wouldn't be an issue. Quote Questioner On the nature of shardblades, to an extent, can a live blade be split without harming it's source, so to speak? Brandon Sanderson Can a live blade split? What do you mean, split? Questioner Make itself into two weapons. Brandon Sanderson Oh, can a blade be forged into two weapons. A shardblade. Questioner Does it absolutely need a connection, or can it become two? Brandon Sanderson So, shardblades becoming two shardblades would require slicing in half a soul, which would not be very fun for the spren. Okay? Questioner So it's possible. *laughter* Brandon Sanderson So it's technically possible to take hydrogen and to turn it into plutonium with our current technology. It would cost more money than, like, the budget of NASA to do it for, y'know, one atom. So there are things that are possible, but-- Yes it is possible. This is not something that would be easy or very useful to do. Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 11:44 AM, Calderis said: I don't have a theory for what it is... I lean towards crystallized stormlight in a framework that the spren facilitate making... But I'm fairly well against the idea that it is spren. There is one idea for spren actually being the plate that @Yata proposed that I could support, but without further information I'm not sold yet. Rather than type them all out, I'll link. So essentially this theory is that shardplate is crystallized or maybe calcified stormlight that lesser spren help maintain somehow? Also on a side note we know that their were spren bows but what did the radiants use for arrows? Regular arrows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter she/her Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 4 minutes ago, Karger said: Also on a side note we know that their were spren bows but what did the radiants use for arrows? Regular arrows? I guess so. Would make more sense for the spren to be the arrow for deadliness purposes but I guess the advantage of a sprenbow is that you don't have to actually lug a bow around just the string and some arrows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Yes but seems pretty ineffective if your going up against the fused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle373 he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, Karger said: Yes but seems pretty ineffective if your going up against the fused Rock used it pretty effectively against Amaram while he was bonded to Yelig-nar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 It took two shots with a shardbow that were perfect bullseyes. A bow Rock could only use because of his enhanced strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Spren arrows really wouldn't be that effective unless you pulled perfect headshots all the time. Szeth wasn't able to heal shardblade wounds with the Honorblade, and yet some of his minor hits were so negligible that Kaladin thought he did. Unless you strike a limb core or the spine/brain, don't even bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Calderis said: Spren arrows really wouldn't be that effective unless you pulled perfect headshots all the time. What do you mean? Spren arrows with broad-heads could do a tone of damage it would be the same as thrusting with a shardblade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyRioter she/her Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 If accuracy is a concern you could use a crossbow, as Wikipedia says they are easier to shoot accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 A broadhead isn't actually all that wide... If a dagger stab doesn't kill a limb, I'm not expecting an arrow to either. Regardless, we're off topic. This thread is about Plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 15 hours ago, Karger said: This has been bugging me for a while but after listening to Shardcast and looking throughout this site I have found only one theory about what shardplate is and how it was made. I am not doubting the coolness of the lesser spren form shardplate at the command of a radiant theory but the fact that no one seems to have come up with any other thoery that will stand up to scrutiny is unacceptable. The lesser spren make it like a greatshell makes a chrysalis. That is, it is a product, not the bodies of the lesser spren itself. Why? If they were dead, they'd scream. If they were still alive, why do they stay around for centuries? They need fuel, while blades don't. Neither dead nor live spren need Stormlight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 15 hours ago, CrazyRioter said: I doubt it's the result of the Radiant's spren spreading out, or else Syl would have the same issues with Plate as she has with the Blades, and the Plate would also scream. I think it has to be the lesser spren given how we’ve seen them drawn to Kaladin and Dalinar and they seem to be trying to help when both display awesome new abilities in OB. I used to think the radiant spren wrangled the lesser spren, but the windspren and gloryspren help automatically in these situations and afterwards Syl and Stormather are like “why did you just do?” And the scene where Dalinar starts to get plate the Stormfather was busy getting beat up by Odium in an attempt to hold him back. Spoilers for length. Spoiler “A hundred windspren spun in lines of light, twisting around his arm, wrapping it like ribbons.” - OB Ch 31 Kaladin deflects the storm. “Something flashed around his arm. Lines of light, a framework that covered his body. His hand didn’t bleed as he scraped the stone.” Ch. 109 Dalinar saves Venli ”A few gloryspren swirled around him, Odium batted them away, they faded.” OB Ch. 118 (lol at Odium swatting them) “Inside his hand he found a solitary gloryspren.” OB Ch 118 “We’re those gloryspren spinning around Dalinar?” OB Ch. 119 ”Dalinar stood in a pillar of light and spinning gloryspren” OB Ch 119 49 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: The lesser spren make it like a greatshell makes a chrysalis. That is, it is a product, not the bodies of the lesser spren itself. Why? If they were dead, they'd scream. If they were still alive, why do they stay around for centuries? They need fuel, while blades don't. Neither dead nor live spren need Stormlight These are good points. We’ve debated before, I think the spren sacrifice their cognition to make the transition to the physical. The greater cognition they have in the cognitive realm the greater presence they have in the physical realm. Radiant spren are smart in the cognitive realm. We’ve seen gloryspren and windspren in the cognitive realm and they are dumb as hell. The greater sacrifice gives stronger physical presence. The blades are unbreakable while the plate is weaker and breaks. The blades don’t break which means they don’t need to be repaired and don’t need “fuel”. Plate needs fuel only when it is taking damage. Lesser spren don’t really talk or make noise, they don’t scream alive or dead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 48 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: Radiant spren are smart in the cognitive realm. We’ve seen gloryspren and windspren in the cognitive realm and they are dumb as hell. Well. windspren are specifically said to be exceedingly rare in Shadesmar. 48 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: The greater sacrifice gives stronger physical presence. The blades are unbreakable while the plate is weaker and breaks. The blades don’t break which means they don’t need to be repaired and don’t need “fuel”. Plate needs fuel only when it is taking damage. No. The plate also locks up without Stormlight. 48 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: Lesser spren don’t really talk or make noise, they don’t scream alive or dead. Thet screamed a lot in Shadesmar. Like animals scream that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 I'm in no way denying that Spren are involved in the plates creation. Rat seems obvious. I just disagree that the plate s composed of Spren. Between the identity issue, ad the points brought up in this thread, I just don't see how to reconcile the plate being made from spren without them having been completely destroyed to create something else... And if that's the case, when you see both Pattern and the Stormfather react negatively to the way that Spren are enslaved for Fabrials, I can't imagine them treating plate as completely inert as they do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Agreed I think that crystallized stormlight crafted by spren makes more scene. Any other unrelated theories? Also 14 hours ago, Calderis said: A broadhead isn't actually all that wide... If a dagger stab doesn't kill a limb, I'm not expecting an arrow to either. A dagger stab can definitely kill a limb if you hit bone and that is fairly easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Karger said: A dagger stab can definitely kill a limb if you hit bone and that is fairly easy. Yes, at close range with an attack that is blocked by a limb. Te majority of the time with arrows you're getting a torso shot. Which Mines you hit the spine or it was pointless. That's not easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 Hitting the hart would probably do it too and loosing control of your lungs would be nasty or digestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02ranger he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 2 hours ago, Calderis said: I'm in no way denying that Spren are involved in the plates creation. Rat seems obvious. I just disagree that the plate s composed of Spren. Between the identity issue, ad the points brought up in this thread, I just don't see how to reconcile the plate being made from spren without them having been completely destroyed to create something else... And if that's the case, when you see both Pattern and the Stormfather react negatively to the way that Spren are enslaved for Fabrials, I can't imagine them treating plate as completely inert as they do. My thoughts on this issue are that the lesser spren are essentially being controlled by the greater spren to form plate and to facilitate the automatic communication and control of Shardplate through the Radiant's bonded spren. However the lesser spren never formed any bonds with the Radiant so when the Radiant breaks his/her oaths it doesn't kill the Platespren the same way the Bladespren die. Instead the Platespren get locked into the Plate form because the Bladespren can't release them from that form, but they're still alive. It's not a perfect theory because I would imagine the Stormfather and Syl would have a problem with the windspren (and other Platespren) being locked into a specific form for all eternity just like they do with the dead Bladespren, but maybe they really don't see it as the same thing. It could also be that the Platespren are seen more like animals in the eyes of the Stormfather and other Bladespren because they aren't sentient. It's been over a year since I read Oathbringer so if there's something in there that contradicts what I'm saying then please remind me. I'm about halfway through WoK on a reread now. Another thought that addresses Child of Hodor's point about the Platespren helping automatically, perhaps the Radiant has to learn to seize control of the Platespren to form Shardplate when needed, but it's only because of the Nahel bond that they're able to mentally control them and when they break the oaths and lose that bond they can't release the Platespren back into the world and they're stuck as Shardplate. Makes me wonder why none of the Radiants dismissed their armor before breaking their oaths, though. And for a darker theory, maybe the Platespren never return to their original forms. Maybe once they become Shardplate they're consumed........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis he/him Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 @02ranger the problem there, is that in completely disassociatinf the plate from the Radiant, you create the Identity issue that is still my main problem. The plate is keyed to the Radiants Identity. That is why it will allow their Surges to pass, and only their Surges. We've seen this phenomena in other magics. If there is no shared Identity with the Radiant, then plate should block all Surges, or none. And if there is shared Identity... That should mean either the Radiant themselves are somehow the source of the plates Investiture, or the thing that makes it is so interconnected with the Radiant that their Investiture and the radiants are indistinguishable... Neither of those should be the case with unbonded lesser spren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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