Ahu’s Ramblings: Everstorm Is An Unmade

[dvoraen]

13 hours ago, Quantus said:

On the topic of the number of Unmade being Fixed:  that doesnt necessarily mean that there can't be any new UnMade, it could instead means that there are somehow only a Fixed number of UnMade "Slots" and to get a new one requires that Odium loose, sacrifice, and/or destroy one of his existing ones.  For example, if the Everstorm is a new one, maybe he destroyed one of the ones we havent seen to use as raw materials.  Or maybe one of the UnMade defecting to Team Honor would free up a slot to create a new one. 

 

I'm not convinced the Everstorm is a tenth Unmade or even close to them in capability.  I rather suspect that the process of birthing a tenth Unmade would "expose Odium to a strike from Cultivation."  If he chose not to destroy the Stormfather for this reason, who per WoB is on a "similar level" with the Unmade, then I don't see how Splintering his own power to create another being on that same level wouldn't merit the same consideration of whether Cultivation could harm him.

[Quantus]

3 hours ago, dvoraen said:

I'm not convinced the Everstorm is a tenth Unmade or even close to them in capability.  I rather suspect that the process of birthing a tenth Unmade would "expose Odium to a strike from Cultivation."  If he chose not to destroy the Stormfather for this reason, who per WoB is on a "similar level" with the Unmade, then I don't see how Splintering his own power to create another being on that same level wouldn't merit the same consideration of whether Cultivation could harm him.

So far all his creations are implied to be made from pre-existing raw material investiture (Fused from dead Singers, UnMade being unmade and rebuilt from something, Voidspren being corrupted Spren) so Im guessing that he used a similar process with the Everstorm.  My bet is that if there's a Spren in the Everstorm it was made by sucking up the souls/Cognitive Ghosts of all those Stormform Singers that died during its creation, and may well be eating more souls each time a Fused is reborn in it and evicts their hosts body's soul.  I think (but certainly dont know for sure) that this sort of process would require less direct Investment and overreach from Odium than attacking the Stormfather directly. 

[+Child of Hodor]

25 minutes ago, Quantus said:

So far all his creations are implied to be made from pre-existing raw material investiture (Fused from dead Singers, UnMade being unmade and rebuilt from something, Voidspren being corrupted Spren) so Im guessing that he used a similar process with the Everstorm.  My bet is that if there's a Spren in the Everstorm it was made by sucking up the souls/Cognitive Ghosts of all those Stormform Singers that died during its creation, and may well be eating more souls each time a Fused is reborn in it and evicts their hosts body's soul.  I think (but certainly dont know for sure) that this sort of process would require less direct Investment and overreach from Odium than attacking the Stormfather directly. 

4 hours ago, dvoraen said:

I'm not convinced the Everstorm is a tenth Unmade or even close to them in capability.  I rather suspect that the process of birthing a tenth Unmade would "expose Odium to a strike from Cultivation."  If he chose not to destroy the Stormfather for this reason, who per WoB is on a "similar level" with the Unmade, then I don't see how Splintering his own power to create another being on that same level wouldn't merit the same consideration of whether Cultivation could harm him.

It's clearly a pre-existing thing Odium modified. It has black clouds and red lighting. Red signifies on Shard co-opting/hijacking the investiture of another in the Cosmere. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173/#e8340

Black often signifies corrupted, blended, mixed investiture https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250/#e7374

Whether it was a spren or something else is unclear. I really like the idea of the Everstorm having a spren in there, mostly because I find the idea creepy. It's a sentient storm that's been enslaved by Odium. 

The Everstorm was worked on elsewhere, probably on Braize, and summoned to Roshar by the Listeners. Since Cultivation is heavily invested in Roshar I don't think she can strike at Odium on Braize. Odium isn't worried about manifesting a form on Roshar during Oathbringer. It's only a projection or representation of him, but it's still something.  He can act to a certain extent without fear of being attacked. 

[Scion of the Mists]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

So far all his creations are implied to be made from pre-existing raw material investiture (Fused from dead Singers, UnMade being unmade and rebuilt from something, Voidspren being corrupted Spren)

I'm pretty sure I asked you about this in another thread, but I can't find it and can't for the life of me remember your answer.  

What makes you think that the voidspren are corrupted spren?  I was always under the impression that they were spren of Odium (i.e. Splinters of his power).  

 

In any event, I still think that the Everstorm is Odium's perpendicularity, which formed on Braize during his imprisonment (we know that they "are a natural effect of a Shard spending a lot of time on a world"), but was then moved to Roshar by the stormform Listeners.  It being a Shardpool would explain both how Cognitive Shadows can reenter the Physical Realm and how the Everstorm distributes Investiture.  

It would also make a nice parallel with Honor's perpendicularity being in the highstorm (another theory I subscribe to).  

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

I'm pretty sure I asked you about this in another thread, but I can't find it and can't for the life of me remember your answer.  

What makes you think that the voidspren are corrupted spren?  I was always under the impression that they were spren of Odium (i.e. Splinters of his power).  

Mostly just Odium's MO, he's been very resistant to Investing any more than absolutely necessary, as doing so further binds him tot the planet.  With the caveat that "Voidspren" is often a frustratingly vague term that is used as a blanket phrase for anything Investiture-based that is on Odium's side and includes the Fused, which are just corrupted Cognitive Shadows of dead Singers, and UnMade which are implied by their Name and indications in the text (with the Midnight Mother at least) to have previously been something else that Odium Unmade and Remade for his own purposes. All the rest of the creatures called Voidspren seem to just be ordinary Rosharan Spren that have been corrupted by Doium via Sja-Anat, either the lesser spren that provide the Forms of Power, the Higher spren that were guiding the freed Parshmen and manipulating Venli, or Glys who seems to be one of those higher spren that simply managed to Bond a radiant.  That would give Odium the same force without having to directly Invest as much of his own power, and would explain all the Red.  To be fair I dont know if that has actually been confirmed anywhere explicitly, but that was definitely my interpretation.

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

In any event, I still think that the Everstorm is Odium's perpendicularity, which formed on Braize during his imprisonment (we know that they "are a natural effect of a Shard spending a lot of time on a world"), but was then moved to Roshar by the stormform Listeners.  It being a Shardpool would explain both how Cognitive Shadows can reenter the Physical Realm and how the Everstorm distributes Investiture.  

It would also make a nice parallel with Honor's perpendicularity being in the highstorm (another theory I subscribe to).  

Agreed, that's the main reason I think there's a spren in there, it's the idea that Odium and the Everstorm are mirroring the Stormfather's previous relationship with Honor.

[Scion of the Mists]

@Quantus I agree that most of the spren that serve Odium are corrupted from either existing spren (Sja-Anat's spren), the souls of the dead (the Fused), or something else (the Unmade).  However, there exists (in my interpretation) a different class of voidspren: the guiding spren (like Yixli), the screamers, and the thunderclast spren.  None of those seem to match up with existing H/C spren.  

[Karger]

Agreed also if Pattern indicates voidspren are something different and the Listener songs say that their gods were born from a splinter of a soul. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Agreed also if pattern indicates voidspren are something different and the Listener songs say that their gods were born from a splinter of a soul. 

 But their "gods" still fit the corruption. Their gods are the Fused. 

Quote

"That parshman crew,” he said. “What did they do to deserve such rough treatment?”
He didn’t actually expect an answer. But the parshwoman followed his gaze, then shook her head. “They harbored a false god. Brought him into the very center among us.”
“The Almighty?”
She laughed. “A real false god, a living one. Like our living gods.” She looked up as one of the Fused passed overhead.

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger]

They refer to all spren as gods.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

@Quantus I agree that most of the spren that serve Odium are corrupted from either existing spren (Sja-Anat's spren), the souls of the dead (the Fused), or something else (the Unmade).  However, there exists (in my interpretation) a different class of voidspren: the guiding spren (like Yixli), the screamers, and the thunderclast spren.  None of those seem to match up with existing H/C spren.  

I cant say specifically what the freed Parshman guiding Spren or Venli's "emissary" spren are corrupted versions of, we simply havent been shown enough of the natural spren to really be sure, but I dont know of any compelling reason to think they are qualitatively different from Glys.  The Screamers were described as corrupted Windspren, I thought.

[+Child of Hodor]

44 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I cant say specifically what the freed Parshman guiding Spren or Venli's "emissary" spren are corrupted versions of, we simply havent been shown enough of the natural spren to really be sure, but I dont know of any compelling reason to think they are qualitatively different from Glys.  The Screamers were described as corrupted Windspren, I thought.

Screamers do look similar to windspren, but they are yellowish in color making me think they are one of the few that Odium didn't hijack. I think the stuff Odium crafts intentionally is mostly white/gold or yellow. He seems to prefer that color combo. Like Vyre's knife.

Venli's buddy Ulim is red so I assume he was hijacked. The yellow guiding spren leading the Hearthstone Singers is yellow. 

Screamers

These spren are similar to the above spren in their color, being yellowish-white, but instead of appearing similar to windspren, these look more like "vivid yellow spheres cackling with energy." https://coppermind.net/wiki/Voidspren#Screamers

Guiding Spren

“That yellow spren isn't any better. Hurry up. Keep moving. She tells us that we're free, then with the very next breath berates us for not obeying quickly enough. ”

— Sah on the yellow voidspren^[3]

1 hour ago, Scion of the Mists said:

@Quantus I agree that most of the spren that serve Odium are corrupted from either existing spren (Sja-Anat's spren), the souls of the dead (the Fused), or something else (the Unmade).  However, there exists (in my interpretation) a different class of voidspren: the guiding spren (like Yixli), the screamers, and the thunderclast spren.  None of those seem to match up with existing H/C spren.  

I think the Thunderclasts are Fused Odium did something extra to.  

"Those are the spirits of the dead, she realized Fused who haven't yet chose a body Most were twisted to the point that she barely recognized them as singers. Two were roughly the size of buildings." - Ch. 115 OB

Venli could be wrong, but she is lumping the two Thunderclast in with the rest of the Fused. I don't know how they got to be so much bigger, Odium may have just made them that way with extra investiture. Or maybe they are the cognitive shadows of greatshells  (but then why do they take humanoid shape).

One has a Singer like name: Yushah (Leshwi, Vatwha, Aharat, Hnanan, Harial ... the Fused are brought to you by the letter H. )

The other has an Unmade-ish name Kai-ganis. Dai-gonarthis specifically. I don't know if there is much to make of that.  

[Quantus]

@Child of Hodor I'd have to go back to OB when they were in Kholinar, but I thought the various corrupted lesser spren that appeared in the city had a pretty wide variety of coloring shifts from their uncorrupted counterparts, including a decent bit of green and red, no? 

As far as the Thundercasts, I agree they appear to be Fused that were further augmented so that they can create bodies from the stone directly rather than needing a Singer form.  I am curious if there are any limitations on how they do that, for example do they need a Gem in the stone supply to act as a Gemheart, then gather the stone around them?  Are they instead actually using some version of Stoneward surges that are pulling the stone around a less tangible form to create their giant stone shapes?  Hell, given the resemblance to Chasmfiends, are that actually Fused that were made from something other than Singers, perhaps some intelligent crustacean like reshi islands, or maybe the Stormstriders?

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

They refer to all spren as gods.

I remember Rock doing this, so the Unkalaki seem to, but not the listeners or singers. Can you give an example? 

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I remember Rock doing this, so the Unkalaki seem to, but not the listeners or singers. Can you give an example? 

Im retty sure gods was the term used when Venli, Eshonai, and Demid were all talking about how the spren had turned on them in favor of the humans, but the context may have been vague enough that they could have been specifically tlaking about Honor and Cultivation, though I could have sworn they said something like "gods of sky and stone" that seemed much more like spren (even godspren) than the actual shards.  One example I can find offhand is the listener Song of Secrets seems to use the terms "gods" and "spren" interchangeably. 

[Karger]

^^That is what I was thinking of.

[Calderis]

@Quantus @Karger

Eh, I don't buy it. Yes the listeners and singers seem to regard the world spren as gods which is the source of the "stone and wind" thing... But that come from this. 

Quote

We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

If spren, generally, we're gods why would that not be god of gods and not god of Spren? 

With the Song of Histories we get this. 

Quote

Smokeform for hiding and slipping between men.
A form of power, like human Surges.
Bring it ’round again.
Though crafted of gods,
It was by Unmade hand.
Leaves its force to be but one of foe or friend.
—From the Listener Song of Histories, 127th stanza

If spren were gods, why differentiate between gods and the Unmade? And if any spren were going to be a "god" that the listeners fled it would be the Unmade, one of which literally stood in for Odium during the False Desolation.

I don't think that Odium has intentionally made full blown splinters of his own in Roshar for the reasons already stated about his view of investing. I find it far more likely that spren that are not red like yixli are either not corrupted to the extent that Glys is or (and I find this the more likely option honestly) that some sapient spren just willingly sided with Odium. Because in the end, spren are people, and people can be swayed or manipulated or just make bad choices. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

This is from ancient Singers not the listeners.  The aceint listeners had an entire culture and religion that we know next to nothing about and is probably only tangentially similar to modern listener culture.

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

If spren were gods, why differentiate between gods and the Unmade

The unmade a specific and dangerous.

Also why should Odium worry about splintering a bit of himself.  He is trapped and without splintering he is going to stay that way.  Besides he can always reclaim the pieces of himself.  "...or I will reclaim that which gives you persistent life"(OB).  It is not that he is spending anything this is an investment.  When the war is finally won on Roshar the fused will finally sleep.

[Scion of the Mists]

46 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also why should Odium worry about splintering a bit of himself

Odium is worried about opening himself up to a strike from Cultivation, per the Stormfather (OB ch. 111).  

I agree though, that he did create Splinters in order to more actively participate in the battle.  But he has to be careful about how much power he exerts.  

[Karger]

True but he is the most dangerous shard alive and he has the most experience of any other 16 at shard v shard combat.  I doubt the splinters he used to make voidspren would matter that much if it came to a clash between the two of them.

[Quantus]

@Calderis Ill see if I can find any more compelling examples, I definitely had gotten that impression but now Im wondering if it was actually sourced in anything specific, or just an assumption.  I really like your idea that some spren may well have simply sided with Odium voluntarily and without needing to be supernaturally manipulated into it.  That would be very much on theme of subverting the assumed sides in this conflict, and as you say it's important to remember that spren are all basically just people, with their own priorities, loyalties, and grudges.  

[+Child of Hodor]

On 3/14/2019 at 2:23 PM, Calderis said:

If spren were gods, why differentiate between gods and the Unmade? And if any spren were going to be a "god" that the listeners fled it would be the Unmade, one of which literally stood in for Odium during the False Desolation.

I don't think that Odium has intentionally made full blown splinters of his own in Roshar for the reasons already stated about his view of investing. I find it far more likely that spren that are not red like yixli are either not corrupted to the extent that Glys is or (and I find this the more likely option honestly) that some sapient spren just willingly sided with Odium. Because in the end, spren are people, and people can be swayed or manipulated or just make bad choices. 

Singer gods confused me for so long. I assumed they meant the unmade, but clearly post-first desolation they mean the Fused. I assume Singers viewed all spren as gods, like the Horneaters do. As descendents of humans and singers that lived in the mountain peaks for a looong time I think their culture was better preserved, less influenced by co-mingling over time. 

It's possible the more intelligent red spren like Ulim sided with Odium and Odium gave them a little tweak to so they could better serve his purposes which is why they are red. He's conserved investiture by co-opting what's already there with the Unmade and the Fused. 

I still think the white/gold spren are his making. They are the same color as the knife, how Odium dresses, the power that streams behind him at Thaylen field, in Mr. T's meeting the ground glowed a molten gold, the golden pedestal Odium's copy of the diagram rests on and the golden lettering all over his recreation of the diagram room. It's Odium's preferred color scheme. 

How big an expenditure of investment is it to make some spren, even if it's like a hundred or two of the white/gold ones? He's stuck in the system forever unless he acts, he has to do something. It's not his primary way of doing things, but I think he did it a bit. 

The yellow/gold spren described in detail have shin eyes. Odium's human projection that Dalinar sees has Shin eyes. They look and are "dressed" just like him and they do his bidding. 

"The tiny woman stood on a translucent pillar of golden stone that had risen from the ground to put her even with Kaladin's gaze. It, like the spren herself, was the yellow-white color of the center of a flame ... Her face was shaped oddly, --narrow, but with large, childlike eyes. Like someone from Shinovar." - OB Ch. 23 The Guiding Spren that spotted Kaladin and leads the Hearthstone Singers

I'm not aware of spren being able to change colors outside of being co-opted or corrupted. Syl shapeshifts constantly but she is always white/blue like all honorspren and their cousin windspren. 

ODIUM:

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Child of Hodor

[Wyndle88]

I am just trying to piece together some thoughts...

There are 10 Heralds on Roshar. There has been nine Desolations. Taln never once succumbed to torture in all these past times. This time he alone gave humans 4500 years. 

We also know that there are 8 Unmade for sure but the 9th one is unaccounted. 

We know the Heralds are sent to Braize to endure torture via Oathpact after their death. We know for sure all Heralds are insane at the moment. Nin and Ash think Ishar to be sane. But all are infact insane. I mean Odium is in Braize so if the Heralds are sent there after death then the Heralds have little chance. Thus this means the Oathpact itself was a stopgap measure by Honor and which was very fragile. 

Also we have accounts of different unmade appearing as Odium's generals during previous desolations and one Unmade repeating several times . That means until a leader among the Heralds broke, they couldn't make an appropriate Unmade. 

So Odium splintered 8 times that we know of. Ninth suspected. Thus Odium made Unmade for each of the Heralds except Taln and Ishar as there is no appropriate Unmade' power revealed to be matched with Bondsmith.

When we look at Venli in Oathbringer, she had fused with a 2nd grade void Spren thus becoming not a full blown Fused, but a 2nd grade Regal.

So torture in Braize would be grades of pain as well. To see who would crumble from different tortures. Maybe some are phycological ensuring in the creation of more aware Unmade. The longer the torture endured better the Unmade that was created.

Also my guess is that all 10 Heralds are required to make an Unmade. Also the minimum time required to bring on a Desolation is equal to the time least time it required for any of the Heralds to break in any of the previous tortures.

I think Ishar realized this, thus broke sooner the second time thus creating a lesser powered Unmade also the Desolations approaching as fewer as ten years apart. 

Heralds realized normally couple or all of them dies during the war. This time only Taln died. He is the one who never succumbed to tortures. Oathpact would work even with one Herald dying. So that was the best decision they could take at that point as the next desolations would have been less than 10 years and humans had to rebuild and what they needed was time. So their sacrifice of Taln makes more impact. That by dying they were actually making it easy for Odium and by living and living in madness, as they live through Oathpact visions.

I believe the Heralds are memory wiped from events of Braize but it activates as Oathpact activate and their madness during the torture of Thier own respective breaking.

This time no unmade was created since it takes all tens powers to be in Braize.  Odium couldn't figure out Ishar because he broke before Odium personally had a crack at him. Maybe Ishar succumbed to a Fused or something.

 

 

 

[agrabes]

On 3/11/2019 at 7:56 PM, Karger said:

This implies that the method by which the Unmade where made is not repeatable.

So according to your theory Ishar who the stormfather calls the maddest of them all does not have an unmade.  Why is that?  Is he crazy for unrelated reasons?  Also if each herald had an unmade corresponding directly to them then it would be one to one as each order has one herald as a patron. 

Look forward to hearing responses I actually like this theory but I think we might need to plug some holes.

Interesting thought I had based on the idea that Ishar does not have an associated Unmade:

Do we know for sure that the Unmade were created by Odium?  Could it be that the Unmade were actually created by Ishar, explaining why he alone of all the Heralds does not have an associated Unmade?  This is all total speculation of course.  Imagine that prior to becoming Heralds, the 10 chosen candidates were told that they were impure and had bad aspects to their personalities that prevented them from becoming Heralds.  Ishar, being the spiritual leader of the Heralds, determines that he can develop a way to remove the impurities.  He separates the "bad" parts of the personalities from the other 9 heralds and they become their own spiritual entities.  He can only remove so much from himself, maybe slicing away small pieces and adding them in to the others.  He is also probably considered the most pure, as the spiritual leader.  This works, but has serious side effects and results in all the Heralds having holes in their psyches, making them susceptible to the kind of madness they later get, but the 9 all think that Ishar is the most sane of them due to having less damage to his psyche.

The Unmade started as independent spiritual beings with the impure or unworthy traits of the Heralds and were eventually found and brought under Odium's control.  This theory wouldn't necessarily explain the power of the Unmade.  I'm sure the Heralds, before becoming Heralds, were powerful in their own right but probably not on the scale of the Unmade.

Anyway, just an interesting thought that came to mind based around Ishar not having an associated Unmade.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Do we know for sure that the Unmade were created by Odium?  Could it be that the Unmade were actually created by Ishar, explaining why he alone of all the Heralds does not have an associated Unmade? 

Sja-anat says that "we were made and then unmade" and Shallan has the impression that the midnight mother is looking for something that she has lost.  Their name also implies that they were once something and then changed.  Ishar was one of Odium's most intractable, knowledgeable, and dangerous opponents.  I have a hard time believing that he would do such a thing.  We also have evidence of Unmade operating during the Heraldic epochs well before he broke.

8 minutes ago, agrabes said:

He is also probably considered the most pure, as the spiritual leader.  This works, but has serious side effects and results in all the Heralds having holes in their psyches, making them susceptible to the kind of madness they later get, but the 9 all think that Ishar is the most sane of them due to having less damage to his psyche.

Doing that kind of thing is like mistborn spoilers.

Spoiler

hemalurgy and would leave them open to actual mind control.  Considering that the fused spent so much time trying to get the heralds to yield and do seem to have some kind of emotional control abilities I doubt it although the thought is interesting.

 

[Vessel of Theory]

On 4/22/2020 at 10:40 AM, agrabes said:

Interesting thought I had based on the idea that Ishar does not have an associated Unmade:

Do we know for sure that the Unmade were created by Odium?  Could it be that the Unmade were actually created by Ishar, explaining why he alone of all the Heralds does not have an associated Unmade?  This is all total speculation of course.  Imagine that prior to becoming Heralds, the 10 chosen candidates were told that they were impure and had bad aspects to their personalities that prevented them from becoming Heralds.  Ishar, being the spiritual leader of the Heralds, determines that he can develop a way to remove the impurities.  He separates the "bad" parts of the personalities from the other 9 heralds and they become their own spiritual entities.  He can only remove so much from himself, maybe slicing away small pieces and adding them in to the others.  He is also probably considered the most pure, as the spiritual leader.  This works, but has serious side effects and results in all the Heralds having holes in their psyches, making them susceptible to the kind of madness they later get, but the 9 all think that Ishar is the most sane of them due to having less damage to his psyche.

The Unmade started as independent spiritual beings with the impure or unworthy traits of the Heralds and were eventually found and brought under Odium's control.  This theory wouldn't necessarily explain the power of the Unmade.  I'm sure the Heralds, before becoming Heralds, were powerful in their own right but probably not on the scale of the Unmade.

Anyway, just an interesting thought that came to mind based around Ishar not having an associated Unmade.

there's this awesome thread I found one time, just looking up the Ten essences. 

 

If you take the time to read it, I think that this adjusted table by @skaa could shed a lot of light on some other theories, as well as this one. Remember that WoB where Brandon talks about the Unmade "kind of" associating with each Herald? What if each Unmade corresponds to something like the remaining Shards of Adonalsium? Perhaps(just musing here) Odium "unmakes" something in a twisted image of whatever Shard he's going to try to destroy next. This would also maybe explain that pesky WoB where Brandon says that "the number of Unmade is fixed", if we assume that the number of Unmade is able to be fixed as dependent on some checklist Odium has in his desk? 

 

Anyone got more thoughts? I know this is kind of a dead thread, I just get so excited when I find a Theory Splinter