Jasnah V Kaladin

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

Just because Kaladin plays the dumb role in the script he's given, remember the boy's a doctor. He isn't dumb.

She's only casting spark if Kaladin frees himself by cutting his prison open.

I tend to set the parameters of their fight as being between 2 fully Idealized Radiants with both plate and blade. At this point in the narrative the only way Jasnah loses is by trickery.

[Karger he/him]

29 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I tend to set the parameters of their fight as being between 2 fully Idealized Radiants with both plate and blade. At this point in the narrative the only way Jasnah loses is by trickery.

Or bad luck, terrain, surprise, the intervention of one or more third parties, emotianal or political considerations. or any number of other factors

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Or bad luck, terrain, surprise, the intervention of one or more third parties, emotianal or political considerations. or any number of other factors

Yeah. Trickery. Not one on one in a set matchup. Mostly because Jasnah has Plate and Kaladin doesn't.

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Mostly because Jasnah has Plate and Kaladin doesn't.

I hate to be that guy but we don't quite know that.

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Karger said:

As a fellow wizard I agree with you but having played for a while I can tell you that for all the amazing (you forgot that I had the fog cloud spell that can effectively block snipers) there is often a (my entire strategy revolved around them not getting through my impenetrable barrier we are all sitting ducks now noooooo.) 

I am not saying he is better at using them I am saying that his abilities better lend themselves to simple combat use.  Kaladin's surges require you to know a bit about how wind and gravity works Jasnah's depend and deep understandings of how a verity of substances behave under various circumstances.  In combat it is hard to keep a large number of options open and ready at one time.  Kaladin can just think move this way or air block this stuff or get away from me sticky goop.  Jasnah has to think alight I need a flamable liquid that I can light on fire he countered then I have to change it to a substance that is inflammable.  Do I have the correct gems for that? How does this behave at high or low pressures.  Will he be able to break out of this?  What about this? Sure she has Ivory to remind her of this stuff but even an inkspren can make errors or fail to understand something important and it is hard to communicate with someone in battle even with a bond.

How is a fog spell an impenetrable barrier? If you are in a room where there is a balcony with archers on it, a fog spell is perfect because they cannot do anything unless they:

1. jump off the balcony taking falling damage and are now prone for the rogue to finish off

2. have to walk all the way around, down the stairs, and down the hallway to get to the room, giving time to dispatch the melee units without harassment from archers

3. wait till the fog dissipates which still wastes turns for them allowing the other enemies to be dispatched without harassment. 

 

In DnD you always impair ranged units ability to land an attack, while melee units you prevent movement. Casters you put grapple spells on to impair concentration checks. Use the right spell to counter the right unit and you will never have an issue. Jasnah is very intelligent and tactically sound. During the battle of Thaylenah, after she restores the wall, she discusses with Navani and the Thaylen Queen about positioning their forces to repel the fused attacks since they can fly. Oh by the way, she talked about this while killing a fused in midair. 

Kaladin if he overuses gravitation blacks out from g forces battering his body. He needs stormlight to recover. Jasnah does not have this limitation. Thing is Jasnah has these understandings well enough that she can do soulcasting very quickly. Did you check the scene I posted earlier? Where she literally soulcasted 3 times, one after the other without pause and without problem. Meanwhile if Kaladin attempted that, he would run the risk of g forces harming his body. Again, you are saying these issues which we have literally seen in the book do not apply. Jasnah has trained herself extensively with soulcasting. All these issues she has overcome through training. Radiant soulcasters do not require specific gemstones. It was a trick Jasnah did in order to pretend to be using a normal soulcaster. WoB backs that up. Kaladin has to do the exact same thing when he uses his abilities. He has to chose a target to lash towards to direct his gravity. Jasnah knows about densities, and is a learned woman in science. The scene in Kharbranth with the boulder turned to smoke shows this. She quizzes Shallan's understanding of mass. 

I have provided numerous book quotes and WoB to back up Jasnah's skills with soulcasting. Could you please provide the same to back up your assertions for Kaladin?

 

15 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So let's break down each character. Kaladin can use his Surges faster, not much faster than Jasnah but in combat fractions of a second count. Kaladin is more mobile. Kaladin isn't dumb, and though Jasnah may be objectively smarter, she has had far less time filtering her thoughts though the sieve of combat than Kaladin has. He can do things by instinct and muscle memory that Jasnah has to think about. Where Kaladin suffers has less to do with his battle prowess and more to do with the limitations of his Surges versus powered opponents. He must touch something to lash it and he cannot lash an opponent at all if they have Plate. He must manipulate the environment to hit Jasnah and all his impressive movement relies on Stormlight. His ace in the hole, pressure manipulation, has limited utility against someone who can escape in a blink, though he may be able to use it in a defensive role against flying debris (like aluminum flakes.

Jasnah is a powerhouse, efficient in her Stormlight usage with range. She doesn't have to touch an object to effect its physical nature, though it would probably be prohibitive to try to cast a person in Plate, likely impossible without infinite Stormlight and an unconscious spren opponent. However anything else in her range can be changed to something advantageous to her, including the very air. She's only limited by her knowledge of material on that score, and the essences are quite sufficient for the creation of mayhem. Lastly, if things are going south too fast for her to handle she's got a built-in escape. Her disadvantage vs. Kaladin is that she's only using one Surge in battle to Kaladin's 2. Other disadvantages are that casting costs more to use on an instance to instance basis ( @Pathfinder likely disagrees with me on that point) and she doesn't have much combat experience. She has a lot of experience killing people I assume, and the mindset to be ruthless. That mindset counts for much; it's probably why she did so well at Thaylen City. But muscle memory counts for more. She does have a few go-to moves but she doesn't have the experience to instantly react to unexpected happenings in the heat of battle. Lastly, she's slow. She moves at a stately pace because she has to keep her mind on the next threat and cannot waste time navigating the landscape if she wants to be effective. 

I forsee a battle between them as Kaladin burning through Stormlight trying to play keep away and rock dodgeball. Jasnah dodges some objects tossed with the force of gravity behind them, casts others away, takes hits on her Shardplate the things she cannot dodge or cast away. In most instances Kal runs dry before Jasnah does and she entombs him before he can lay hands on her. In other instances he keeps her too occupied for offensive tactics and forces her to burn through all her reserves, either killing her when she runs dry or forcing her to flee into the CR. Kaladin has a greater or lesser degree of success depending on environment. For example, any environment that limits Kaladin's mobility will be an obvious disadvantage unless there are objects he can Lash towards Jasnah that would be difficult for her to dodge. In close quarters Jasnah has too many options for him to overcome. 

I already responded to the "mixed bag" to Karger above. 

As I requested of Karger, could you please provide in book quotes or WoB that show Kaladin surgebinds faster than Jasnah? Because I have shown numerous examples that show that is not the case. So I really would love to see the evidence that proves that as fact. 

Jasnah held her own in the battle of Thaylenah just as well as Kaladin. Kaladin has wonderful weapons training. That is great. Except Jasnah isn't using physical weapons and he has to get close to use his. 

Again, where does it say Kaladin can use his surges based on muscle memory and instinct? Please show me the quotes, because I personally recall scenes where he has to learn to use his surges and train with them to catch up to Szeth. That in order to change direction you have to choose a direction to lash yourself in. Also changing direction too often results in damage to Kaladin. So please I would love some evidence to back up how perfect Kaladin is with his surges in comparison to Jasnah.

I also think if we are magically giving Kaladin all this understanding of pressure, and oxygen content, and new powers he has never exhibited before under the assumption that he could potentially have them if he was fully oathed, then I do not think Jasnah should have the limitation on what she could soulcast with her knowledge. Kaladin would have no way of knowing about liquid oxygen or any other of the scientific applications to his abilities. So if Kaladin magically had this know how, then Jasnah should be able to know chemistry too. And it would be a whole lot more plausible for her to know it than Kaladin. He had training as a surgeon. That is great. He can operate on people. But since when does a surgeon study the chemical composition of explosives? Since when does a surgeon study aviation? Since when does a surgeon study engineering? You want to give him these capabilities for the purpose of the fight? Sure! But then such limitations gets removed from Jasnah as well. 

Why exactly would Jasnah just stand there and let Kaladin "run her dry"? We have seen what happens when Kaladin lashes a large stone at someone (I quoted that too in a prior post). It would require far more lashings to get the kind of impact you are saying. 

I feel like I am starting to reach the point of repeating myself. I may just need to start responding by referring to the pages where I already posted the responses to some of these arguments, with the coinciding quotes and WoB to back it up. 

15 hours ago, Karger said:

I agree to an extant but your last point about Kaladin being at a disadvantage does not seem to work vary well.  We know that the assassin in white for example was able to manipulate indoor environment to his advantage.  Yes he was not fighting aponents with surges but what is Jasnah going to do when going toe to toe with a skilled soldier?  Entombing him seems far to dangerous as he could by moving a few feet either doge or berry her with him and I am not sure if fleeing into the cognitive realm is ideal inside as objects will be both above and below you.

Yeah this is another point that was already covered pages ago. 

1. You said kaladin could dodge or move the wind

2. I said soulcasting is instantaneous. Then cited the examples of when Jasnah soulcasted someone before they could stab her, soulcasting the air to oil and ignite it for a fused to fly into, and soulcasting a tomb for a fused out of midair

3. I was responded to by Calderis saying anything that happens during the realms being together doesn't count

4. I responded by listing three soulcastings done one after the other before the realms were brought together that showed she could do that normally

5. the subject matter then changed to other ideas. 

 

I can go dig and pull up the pages this went on if you like.

14 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Szeth fought against unpowered opponents who were still coming to grips with something that should not be possible according to their worldview. The world had largely forgotten about the abilities of Surgebinders; there's no equivalent of a hazekiller squad in Roshar at present. Jasnah will not have that problem. He gets within arm's reach of Jasnah and she blocks the hallway with one wall to stop his momentum, closes him in on all sides and casts the air inside the enclosure to oil, casts a spark to set the oil aflame if Kaladin cuts his way free with Syl. Stabs him with Ivory while he's distracted. 

I really do feel an enclosed battlefield would hamper Kaladin and benefit Jasnah. For me the assumption for a clear and open field was actually to be fair to kaladin and enable him to use his flying and maneuverability. 

14 hours ago, Karger said:

If she turns the air to oil then sparking it will do nothing.  Also If he gets within arms reach of her he can make his Sylblade longer and smash it into her for some damage.  I have complete respect for Jasnah but what is she going to do against Kaladin if he shatters at least one section of her armor?

Why would setting Kaladin on fire do nothing? Fine, we use the same idea you were ready to use to "destroy" Jasnah. Change the air to a highly volatile gas directly around Kaladin and ignite it. Boom. Jasnah also has a spren blade that can be summoned immediately and transform. What is Kaladin going to do if Jasnah blasts away his armor? They both have the same capabilities with plate and sword, not sure why this would be any less a problem for Kaladin than Jasnah.

14 hours ago, SaphicColours said:

As far as a fight between Jasnah and Kaladin go, I would place my bets on Jasnah.

I believe Jasnah is more strongwilled than Kaladin, and she is significantly smarter. Kaladin would have an advantage of creativity and flat martial prowess, but magically Jasnah is far superior. At their current levels, anyway. Later in the series if Kaladin and Jasnah are both full radiants (swearing all their ideals) that MIGHT change, but even so.

Just look at the final battle in Oathbringer. I'm not even sure how she does what she is doing, although I had theories. I think she could definitely wear Kaladin down.

 

That's not to say, though, that I like Kaladin less. If he were able to outwit her, and get in close then he stands a real chance. But with distance between them, I very much doubt that he would prevail. I'm pretty sure Jasnah could either teleport herself or Kaladin if she needed to get away from him.

I think that is part of the problem that is coming up in this discussion. Saying Jasnah's powers and her capabilities in using them in not intended to belittle Kaladin. His powers are simply more effective in different circumstances. So I agree with you

14 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Just because Kaladin plays the dumb role in the script he's given, remember the boy's a doctor. He isn't dumb.

She's only casting spark if Kaladin frees himself by cutting his prison open.

I tend to set the parameters of their fight as being between 2 fully Idealized Radiants with both plate and blade. At this point in the narrative the only way Jasnah loses is by trickery.

Being smart as a doctor does not mean he would have the knowledge to accomplish all these other feats posited throughout this thread. I agree the best way to make this fair is to make them both fully oathed knights radiant, both with plate and blade. 

14 hours ago, Karger said:

Or bad luck, terrain, surprise, the intervention of one or more third parties, emotianal or political considerations. or any number of other factors

And all of those things could impair Kaladin just as easily. Not sure why they singly oppose her. 

[jjreeder he/him]

I believe Jasnah would win simply due to experience, and because Kaladin doesn't have that experience he would lose. I do think he would give Jasnah a fight, though.

[Calderis he/him]

If anything, this thread has just cemented in my mind how ridiculously OP Jasnah is capable of being. 

The shenanigans people have proposed to take her out (that I still think are insufficient) are just... Yeah

[Pathfinder]

I do feel a willshaper could potentially give an elsecaller a run for their money. I theorize that a willshaper would be much more proficient with transportation and could teleport right up to an elsecaller, and slam a blade through the eye hole of the armor and hold it there. If the elsecaller tried to teleport away, the willshaper could teleport right after and keep on the damage. Anytime the elsecaller tried to soulcast, it would either result in harming herself as well (the explosion idea), or miss the target from the willshaper teleporting away. I could then see the willshaping teleportation not being as effective against a windrunner. The windrunner could also have a problem with the willshaper getting the drop on it, but since the willshapers main means of damage is its shardblade (cohesion wouldn't be effective as the windrunner could fly, unless the willshaper was able to completely encase the windrunner in stone before he got off the ground), it would allow the windrunner a chance to counter before the willshaper popped away. I could also see a stoneward being a decent problem for a willshaper. All the teleporting in the world for the willshaper wouldn't change anything if the stoneward could potentially strengthen their armor and shield themselves from attack. 

So basically I find the interaction of the powers very interesting lol. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

@Pathfinder

I believe that you are misrepresenting what I'm saying to prove points. 

Surgebinding Speed: We've seen Jasnah soulcast and Kaladin perform Lashings. Jasnah has to have a conversation with the spren of objects she wants to change, as she was explaining to Shallan. Command air, persuade rock, ect. Kaladin? Touch and go. Which is faster? 

Muscle Memory: I referred to muscle memory in terms of his regular martial prowess. But as his sky battle with Szeth shows, his Surges and Syl's variable weaponry pair quite well with the skills he posesses already. Of course he has to practice Surgebinding, I never said he did not. He was naturally gifted with the spear too. That didn't negate his need to practice. Development of those abilities takes time and we've actually seen Kaladin take that time. 

Kaladin's Intelligence: While it's certainly true that being a doctor doesn't necessarily translate to knowledge of particle physics or whatever some of the other crazy feats some other posters postulate, it does establish a baseline intelligence not often found in common soldiers. I would argue that neither does writing treatises and keteks translate to Jasnah having the knowledge to soulcast plutonium for example. That's beside the point however. Intelligence informed by experience is my point. Kaladin has been honing his craft since he left Hearthstone. Jasnah has been doing research. Jasnah has better knowledge of her Surges but not much practice in fighting. To think Jasnah is just going to outsmart dumb ole Kaladin in his natural environment is maybe giving Jasnah more credit than is warranted.

As far as any magical capabilities that I'm trying to grant Kaladin and not Jasnah, did you check out my scenario? I thought I represented them well in regards to the known capabilities of the combatants. The pressure manipulation thing comes from the scene where he redirects the Highstorm winds from the slave pens. Even with that I said that has limited utility against Jasnah except in a defensive capacity. I basically have Kaladin tossing a bunch of fastballs at Jasnah, plate assisted and adding a Lashing or 2 for extra oomph. Blunt impacts can crack Shardplate, Jasnah has to defend against it.  Kaladin is more mobile, he can stay out of her range indefinitely as long as his Stormlight holds out. He only has to get in close to kill her, but the same goes for her. Where in all of that did I give either party an advantage outside the abilities they've displayed so far?

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@Pathfinder

I believe that you are misrepresenting what I'm saying to prove points. 

Surgebinding Speed: We've seen Jasnah soulcast and Kaladin perform Lashings. Jasnah has to have a conversation with the spren of objects she wants to change, as she was explaining to Shallan. Command air, persuade rock, ect. Kaladin? Touch and go. Which is faster? 

Muscle Memory: I referred to muscle memory in terms of his regular martial prowess. But as his sky battle with Szeth shows, his Surges and Syl's variable weaponry pair quite well with the skills he posesses already. Of course he has to practice Surgebinding, I never said he did not. He was naturally gifted with the spear too. That didn't negate his need to practice. Development of those abilities takes time and we've actually seen Kaladin take that time. 

Kaladin's Intelligence: While it's certainly true that being a doctor doesn't necessarily translate to knowledge of particle physics or whatever some of the other crazy feats some other posters postulate, it does establish a baseline intelligence not often found in common soldiers. I would argue that neither does writing treatises and keteks translate to Jasnah having the knowledge to soulcast plutonium for example. That's beside the point however. Intelligence informed by experience is my point. Kaladin has been honing his craft since he left Hearthstone. Jasnah has been doing research. Jasnah has better knowledge of her Surges but not much practice in fighting. To think Jasnah is just going to outsmart dumb ole Kaladin in his natural environment is maybe giving Jasnah more credit than is warranted.

As far as any magical capabilities that I'm trying to grant Kaladin and not Jasnah, did you check out my scenario? I thought I represented them well in regards to the known capabilities of the combatants. The pressure manipulation thing comes from the scene where he redirects the Highstorm winds from the slave pens. Even with that I said that has limited utility against Jasnah except in a defensive capacity. I basically have Kaladin tossing a bunch of fastballs at Jasnah, plate assisted and adding a Lashing or 2 for extra oomph. Blunt impacts can crack Shardplate, Jasnah has to defend against it.  Kaladin is more mobile, he can stay out of her range indefinitely as long as his Stormlight holds out. He only has to get in close to kill her, but the same goes for her. Where in all of that did I give either party an advantage outside the abilities they've displayed so far?

Surgebinding speed: and we see that Jasnah has become so proficient at it that that does not slow her down at all. Again please refer to the scene where she soulcasts three things easily before the realms are placed together. No pause. 

Muscle Memory: Jasnah can do the same exact things with Ivory/spren blade as Kaladin can do with Syl/sprenblade. Jasnah has been working at soulcasting almost exclusively for much longer than Kaladin at surgebinding and her skills show. Jasnah is incredibly proficient with soulcasting as we see time and again in all three books. I could list all over again all the soulcasting she has done that show this. Soulcasting letters into a paper. Soulcasting stairs out of air as she runs up them, Soulcasting three men in sequence just by touching and shoving one. And so on. That is why I really do not see where this idea that Jasnah has slower surgebinding, or takes more to surgebind than kaladin is coming from. The woman has years of experience on Kaladin. As per WoB. 

How Jasnah handled herself in combat situations during the Battle of Thaylenah begs to differ. Her skill with soulcasting is her combat expertise. It is her weapon of choice. 

I was responding to both you and Karger. Using pressure to selectively condense oxygen to create a spark to blow Jasnah up. Using pressure to create a wind barrier to deflect explosions. Using pressure to create a wind so powerful as to blast Jasnah away. These are the uses I am referring to. These we have not seen used, nor even know is possible nonetheless if Kaladin would have the knowledge to even know if these things are possible, yet we are considering them in the battle. So too then I feel Jasnah should have the same benefit then. 

Once again, in the battle of thaylenah, Kaladin lashes a large stone a few times to hit a fused in the head. All this accomplished was surprising the fused with some pain. No head explosion. Not knocking it unconscious. Just pain, and then it flies away. I agree it is a clever addition to have him throw the stone with plate assisted while also lashing it. That is a good idea. What is to stop Jasnah from soulcasting a dome around her to deal with the stone attacks, and knowing he will then fly in to cut through, soulcast an explosive gas that will react to the break, while she had teleported away. 

My point is that soulcasting provides enough versatility coupled with teleportation to make Kaladin's powers ill suited for fighting Jasnah. His power system is for scouting. That is another WoB. I do not see anything wrong with saying Kaladin's power set would be more effective combating another radiant order. Just like another radiant order would be more effective combating Jasnah as an elsecaller. Saying that a screw driver can be used as a hammer, but not as effective as an actual hammer is not saying a screw driver is an ineffective tool. All it is saying is the screw driver is more effective when used to accomplish a different goal. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

The difference in speed does not have to be great in order for it to matter in terms of combat. And although I acknowledge that Jasnah is an incredibly fast caster and has tons of experience with her Surges (well, one of them), she has yet to fight someone close to her equal. Thaylen City was awesome for her; she fought better than any so-called scholar would have a right to. But her opponents were battle-crazed unpowered humans and insane Fused. Kaladin's battle experience is more encompassing and he's fought though the entire spectrum, powered vs unpowered, equal strength, fighting against people more powerful, fighting while tired, fighting while drained of Stormlight, fighting multiple opponents. Jasnah wins most times but Kaladin can test her limits unlike any opponent she has ever faced. And I believe any battle between them will not be swift, will not be decided by one blow. Fatigue plays a factor.

As far as Jasnah casting a dome around herself, that's nothing more than a delay tactic. She cannot attack him from beyond the dome. Plus, if she isn't going to move he can multilash a much larger object at her without worrying about her dodging. Or he could walk away and preserve his Stormlight.  The only way I see that being effective is if sprung like a trap. Either she domes up as he's flying in, dazing him or she closes him within the cage with her to negate his mobility. Surprise is key.

I've maintained that it costs more for Jasnah to cast than for Kaladin to lash due to logic. Redirecting the forces affecting an object takes less energy than using a force to change the physical properties of an object, especially in the Cosmere where one must overcome the initial Investiture of the given object. Take an object in null g. Lashing is like pushing an object at rest. Soulcasting is like pushing an object in motion. In order to go the way one wants one must first overcome the object's initial velocity. Just because someone is good at overcoming that initial velocity doesn't mean that it doesn't cost more energy to do so than it does to push something with no initial velocity.

I agree that the Windrunner power set is ill-suited against an Elsecaller's. That's partially the reason why I'd pick Jasnah to beat Kaladin 70% of the time. The percentage would likely be higher in favor of the Elsecallers if random Windrunner A went up against random Elsecaller B given equal Oaths and possession of all Shards. It would certainly be higher if Jasnah were fighting Teft or Lopen. But Kaladin is a whole 'nother kettle of fish and I sincerely believe he gives her a run for her money. This is of course given the capabilities we've seen so far. Only Brandon knows what more they can do. As we see more the percentages could change quite a bit in either direction.

[teknopathetic he/him]

On 2019-02-21 at 1:10 PM, Toaster Retribution said:

Kaladin would probably beat Jasnah in a fight. She can’t soulcast him I think. 

Sure, but she can soulcast the air infant of him into fire, or into a wall, or into a box filled with spikes and blood. 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

And all of those things could impair Kaladin just as easily. Not sure why they singly oppose her. 

They do not singly oppose anyone my point is that they are close enough in combat viability that saying one of them will win every time is silly.  Combat between any two professionals is going to be more complicated then this is better then that so this is the result.  This is why this discussion has been going on so long.

 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Again, where does it say Kaladin can use his surges based on muscle memory and instinct? Please show me the quotes, because I personally recall scenes where he has to learn to use his surges and train with them to catch up to Szeth. That in order to change direction you have to choose a direction to lash yourself in. Also changing direction too often results in damage to Kaladin. So please I would love some evidence to back up how perfect Kaladin is with his surges in comparison to Jasnah.

Don't we see Brandon describe the way Kaladin moves and fights with lashings as instinctual?  I can remember examples from WoR when fighting Szeth and during the BoTF where he moves or lashes himself at thought.

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I feel like I am starting to reach the point of repeating myself. I may just need to start responding by referring to the pages where I already posted the responses to some of these arguments, with the coinciding quotes and WoB to back it up. 

This is a natural function of the length and complexity of the our arguments.  Because this thread is so long and we have so many things in the air we may end up repeating ourselves or even undermining our own arguments.

 

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

How is a fog spell an impenetrable barrier? If you are in a room where there is a balcony with archers on it, a fog spell is perfect because they cannot do anything unless they:

I was speaking of two separate instances one where a spell was perfect and we eaily won the combat the other where I forgot something crucial and it we suffered a rout.

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

During the battle of Thaylenah, after she restores the wall, she discusses with Navani and the Thaylen Queen about positioning their forces to repel the fused attacks since they can fly. Oh by the way, she talked about this while killing a fused in midair. 

While individual fused are attacking one at a time and the cognitive realm is closer then normal.  Even so if several different fused were to attack at once from different angels or one was to get in a surprise attack by using cover Jasnah could easily have ended up in trouble the way Kaladin did.

We know that Jasnah can soulcast at range but I have reason to suspect that that range is limited to less then eyesight so Kaladin could probably just stay out of range for long enough to come up with some kind of strategy working at multiple solutions if necessary by trying one of our options and if it fails going back to try another one.  Jasnah has to spend this time prepping to deal with his most likely moves.

[Karger he/him]

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Radiant soulcasters do not require specific gemstones.

Do we have confirmation of this?

[Pathfinder]

21 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The difference in speed does not have to be great in order for it to matter in terms of combat. And although I acknowledge that Jasnah is an incredibly fast caster and has tons of experience with her Surges (well, one of them), she has yet to fight someone close to her equal. Thaylen City was awesome for her; she fought better than any so-called scholar would have a right to. But her opponents were battle-crazed unpowered humans and insane Fused. Kaladin's battle experience is more encompassing and he's fought though the entire spectrum, powered vs unpowered, equal strength, fighting against people more powerful, fighting while tired, fighting while drained of Stormlight, fighting multiple opponents. Jasnah wins most times but Kaladin can test her limits unlike any opponent she has ever faced. And I believe any battle between them will not be swift, will not be decided by one blow. Fatigue plays a factor.

As far as Jasnah casting a dome around herself, that's nothing more than a delay tactic. She cannot attack him from beyond the dome. Plus, if she isn't going to move he can multilash a much larger object at her without worrying about her dodging. Or he could walk away and preserve his Stormlight.  The only way I see that being effective is if sprung like a trap. Either she domes up as he's flying in, dazing him or she closes him within the cage with her to negate his mobility. Surprise is key.

I've maintained that it costs more for Jasnah to cast than for Kaladin to lash due to logic. Redirecting the forces affecting an object takes less energy than using a force to change the physical properties of an object, especially in the Cosmere where one must overcome the initial Investiture of the given object. Take an object in null g. Lashing is like pushing an object at rest. Soulcasting is like pushing an object in motion. In order to go the way one wants one must first overcome the object's initial velocity. Just because someone is good at overcoming that initial velocity doesn't mean that it doesn't cost more energy to do so than it does to push something with no initial velocity.

I agree that the Windrunner power set is ill-suited against an Elsecaller's. That's partially the reason why I'd pick Jasnah to beat Kaladin 70% of the time. The percentage would likely be higher in favor of the Elsecallers if random Windrunner A went up against random Elsecaller B given equal Oaths and possession of all Shards. It would certainly be higher if Jasnah were fighting Teft or Lopen. But Kaladin is a whole 'nother kettle of fish and I sincerely believe he gives her a run for her money. This is of course given the capabilities we've seen so far. Only Brandon knows what more they can do. As we see more the percentages could change quite a bit in either direction.

So since we are putting forward hypotheticals for Kaladin and how he would learn from his experience with Rock to use his stormlight more conservatively, then I would like to refer to the end of Words of Radiance when Jasnah runs into Hoid. She arrives looking very clearly like she has been through many a battle and come out on top. There is a whole lot of Jasnah's past we do not know. So I do not think we can assume she has never fought someone equal to her. I also think she has fought a wide range of enemies. I disagree regarding Kaladin testing her unlike any other opponent. I already gave another example. I think a willshaper could check mate her. I think a dustbringer (depending on how their power works) could check mate her. 

Jasnah can see into the cognitive realm and keep an eye on where Kaladin is while within the dome so she can adjust her tactics while Kaladin has no idea what is going on in that dome. 

If the costs are logical, then there should be in book references to support it. I have provided plenty that for me disputes that. So I do not see the point in repeating myself in that as we would just be going in circles and I would not be bringing anything fresh to the discussion regarding that. 

You are free to feel Kaladin is "a whole 'nother kettle of fish". I disagree and feel I have presented plenty of in book references to support that. Again no point in going through the trouble of posting the quotes all over again if they are not enough to convince you. So I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on Jasnah and Kaladin fighting. 

 

21 hours ago, Karger said:

They do not singly oppose anyone my point is that they are close enough in combat viability that saying one of them will win every time is silly.  Combat between any two professionals is going to be more complicated then this is better then that so this is the result.  This is why this discussion has been going on so long.

 

Don't we see Brandon describe the way Kaladin moves and fights with lashings as instinctual?  I can remember examples from WoR when fighting Szeth and during the BoTF where he moves or lashes himself at thought.

This is a natural function of the length and complexity of the our arguments.  Because this thread is so long and we have so many things in the air we may end up repeating ourselves or even undermining our own arguments.

 

I was speaking of two separate instances one where a spell was perfect and we eaily won the combat the other where I forgot something crucial and it we suffered a rout.

While individual fused are attacking one at a time and the cognitive realm is closer then normal.  Even so if several different fused were to attack at once from different angels or one was to get in a surprise attack by using cover Jasnah could easily have ended up in trouble the way Kaladin did.

We know that Jasnah can soulcast at range but I have reason to suspect that that range is limited to less then eyesight so Kaladin could probably just stay out of range for long enough to come up with some kind of strategy working at multiple solutions if necessary by trying one of our options and if it fails going back to try another one.  Jasnah has to spend this time prepping to deal with his most likely moves.

And my point is the power set Kaladin has is illsuited when fighting someone with Jasnah's power set. Someone can be the most skilled martial artist in the world with a sword, but it is still not an effective weapon when dealing with someone who is the most skilled marksman in the world with a pistol when the two parties start equidistant away. The martial artist is just not going to win. 

As per Szeth, you still have to choose a direction and how many lashes. No different than Jasnah soulcasting. When you mention scenes please provide page number or quote it as I have been going through the trouble of doing. 

I feel once we get to the point of repeating ourselves, we should stop because all it will result in is frustration rather than furthering discourse. It means we have reached a point where we both have received all the information we each have, and that has changed nothing. So to persist would be pointless. 

Again, i feel I am repeating myself. The instance where Jasnah soulcasted so many times fluidly after the other was before the realms were brought together. Renarin sees her do it all, and then feels the charge from the result of Dalinar. Soulcasting happened first. So it was not at the effect of the realms in that case. 

You suspect the range, but we do not have anything concrete to say what the range is. Jasnah soulcasted the length of an alley way. That alleyway could be short, or could be long. We just don't know. So while Kaladin is out of range coming up with strategies, Jasnah is just standing there brain dead? Not thinking herself at all?

16 hours ago, Karger said:

Do we have confirmation of this?

Yes. The smoking gun WoB I have not found yet but I will describe in detail in case anyone can find it faster than me, but I have also included three other WoB that support it as well as add interesting additional information. The WoB I am referring to involves a person asking Brandon about when Jasnah soulcasted Shallan's blood. It came up that Jasnah could have soulcasted the blood without a garnet, and was Jasnah risking Shallan's life just for appearances. I ran briefly through the WoBs and haven't found it yet, but when I do I will post it. Meanwhile of the ones I post below there is a WoB saying the breaking of the stone was Jasnah doing it on purpose to cover her radiant soulcasting which would have involved her taking in the stormlight directly, without need of the gemstone. Another two says radiant soulcasters can do a lot more, with much less limitations than fabrial soulcasters. The last one is interesting because it says you could soulcast shardplate, and by doing so you would destroy it. Posted below

 

(Jasnah fooling people that her gemstones break when soulcasting)

Coltonx9
Why do the gems in Jasnah's Soulcaster break when she is using her own ability in the first book?

Brandon Sanderson
Jasnah is very good at fooling people.

 

(fabrial soulcasters are way more rigid than radiant soulcasters)
ebilutionist
How would food production be like without soulcasters? Has Alethkar, for example, grown far beyond what it could (population-wise) without them?

Brandon Sanderson
The food question is a great one. As far as the Alethi go, it's more a matter of concentration than raw food production. Shipping is SLOW in Alethkar. It's long, which makes getting between north and south difficult, and the rivers aren't as useful as they are on (say) Earth.

The warcamps, for example, would starve themselves out short order without soulcasters. Supply lines are just not an Alethi strength. Kholinar, while not as big as Scadrian population centers, is also large enough that it depends on soulcasters for some of its food. It could survive without them, though, with northern Alethi food production.

Really, warfare is where they've learned to extend themselves, and depend on the soulcasters. Remember, gemstones in them DO break, so you do still need a ready supply of emeralds. The larger, the better.

ebilutionist
Very interesting on the food logistics of Alethkar - I never did quite imagine Kholinar was smaller than say, Elendel, but the technological progress there explains it.

Given how slow food transportation is, I would presume fresh food is a no-go. Are spices and preserved food selling well in Roshar, then? As for population centers, is Kholinar the largest around, or are other places a lot larger?

Brandon Sanderson
There's a reason that Herdazian food (which makes soulcast meat taste good) is popular these days.

Azimir is larger in population than Kholinar. Kholinar is big by Rosharan standards, but far smaller than an Earth population center (like London) at a comparable time. The warcamps had it beat by a lot--depending on how you view the warcamps. (As one city, or ten small ones.)

ebilutionist
Does that just mean Herdazian food is incredibly spice-heavy, then? Also, why is Soulcast food bland? Is it due to the nature of the object (changing food to food makes it tastier than stone to food), or just because the Soulcaster lacks practice, like Jasnah did with strawberry jam?

Brandon Sanderson
Flavorful, rather than spicy. Most western food is already spicy. The Herdazians offer something a little different, and are pretty good with soulcast meat. The portability is also a bit of a revolution.

Soulcasting anything other than the basic Essence requires some innate knowledge and practice. People could learn to soulcast better food, but it would have to be a Radiant with control over the process. The soulcaster fabrials are far more rigid in what they can create.

ebilutionist
As for soulcasting - now that is... interesting. So are Surgebinding fabrials more rigid in general? And what of an Honorblade when a non-Herald uses it?

Brandon Sanderson
A soulcaster is built to do a certain thing, and can do that certain thing well, but without as much flexibility. It is the difference between having a computer output a picture of a circle--following some inputs such as size and some changes to shape--and having an artist who can draw what you want.

 

(again radiant soulcasters do not suffer from the same limitations as fabrial soulcasters. implies you could soulcast rock with a ruby which is a completely different essence)

Darkness (paraphrased)
Further on in that… do different gemstones hold a different flavor, or different "frequency" of Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Umm…. Nnnnnnnnooooooo… But kind of? Here's the thing: So with the gemstones on Roshar… scientifically some of these gemstones are just really close to one another. Like chemical formula and whatever. But, their cognitive selves and their spiritual selves are gonna be very different because of human perception, right? (sure) And so, the answer is both a no and a yes because of that. So people's perception has sort of changed how the magic works, to an extent… but it's the same amount of investiture, just with slightly different flavorings.

Darkness (paraphrased)
Right, so… is it easier for a Soulcaster to turn rock into smoke with a smokestone as opposed to a ruby?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
So… Soulcasting… is gonna really depend on whether you're using a soulcaster.

Darkness (paraphrased)
First is for a Soulcaster, second is for a Surgebinder.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
A Surgebinder is far less constrained than someone using a device accessing surges, right? A Knight Radiant is far less constrained than somebody using a mechanical means of accessing magic, and I would include Honorblades as a mechanical means of accessing a surge.

Darkness (paraphrased)
Cool! So with the whole Jasnah scene, she inhales Stormlight, for using Soulcasting. So how is it the Soulcaster appears to glow more fiercely instead of growing dimmer in that scene?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Um… heh heh heh… So… this is perception on Shallan's part, watching and kind of resonating with the Soulcasting, and some weird things are happening that she sees, and not necessarily anyone else is seeing.

Darkness (paraphrased)
I love that! Alright… Also, did Taravangian recognize that Jasnah was not Soulcasting traditionally? Like was it the hand sinking into the rock that gave it away?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)
Taravangian knew and already suspected.

 

(shardplate can be soulcasted and would result in destroying the shardplate)

Questioner
Can Shardplate be Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson
Shardplate could be Soulcast, but anything Invested is very difficult to Soulcast and it would essentially destroy it. Which would be one of the few ways to destroy Shardplate.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

@Pathfinder

Jasnah may be able to observe Kaladin while protected inside her rock dome, but by that same token Kaladin doesn't have to use Stormlight since she cannot harm him from within it. He can otoh toss a big boulder at her with a quadruple or more Lashing appied, enough to shatter whatever barriers she can put up. She either has to move or cast more and more thickness to her protection. At any rate she loses the initiative, negating her greatest strength against Kaladin. 

Now I believe I have asked this before but do you see any scenario where Kaladin can beat Jasnah? But I'll expand the question a bit. Is your belief due to Jasnah's exceptional prowess or simply the Elsecaller's power set? I think Kaladin is extraordinary as a Windrunner, able to incorporate his powers seamlessly with his previous spear training to make for an extremely dangerous opponent for anyone. Do you think he loses to random Elsecaller B 10 times out of 10? Or is it just that you believe Jasnah is just that good? 

People are more than their power set. If it were just about power sets Vin gets murdered by TLR before she can take 2 steps. I can't see Jasnah losing to any random Willshaper even if said Willshaper has the advantage in power set. 

You are inferring Jasnah's battle experience just as much as I'm inferring magic costs. You are seeing her emerging from the perpendicularity bedraggled and infer she's been in many battles. It doesn't have to be many battles or one huge foe. She could have fell down a steep slope. She didn't have much in the way of Stormlight left when she escaped into the CR. My assumption is just as valid as yours. There's no definitive proof for either theory. 

I'm sure you'll respond to this; you are a thoughtful poster. I'm probably going to let you have the last word on it too. It's obvious that we disagree on the evidence presented. This is subjective anyway. However it plays out I hold no hard feelings. And I hope to all heaven that it never happens since I don't wanna lose either character.

[Calderis he/him]

4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Jasnah may be able to observe Kaladin while protected inside her rock dome, but by that same token Kaladin doesn't have to use Stormlight since she cannot harm him from within it.

If we're talking about ranged Soulcasting... Why not? Setting up a protective barrier and then using shadesmar to soulcast seems like the perfect solution that would not be simple to counter. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

I think her effective range cannot be more than 50 feet or so, likely much less. If it's as far as the eye can see then their has to be a mitigating factor, like the farther away from you that u cast the more Stormlight it takes or something. No evidence for this except for my personal observations of Brandon and how he approaches magic systems. He is interested in the limitations of magic. If casting is that OP then it makes it limitless and not fun as a consequence. Plus, we would have likely seen some indication that she can affect things from across a football field in Thalenah. Anyway I guess we'll get to see rather soon.

[Karger he/him]

I don't think that we have addressed this yet but is soulcasting equal for all things.  Remeber you use different techniques for each of the 10 essences and I assume that it takes a different technique to transform essence A into essence B then C.  If this is true then their are 10 to the 9th possible techniques for every essence and it is impossible that Jasnah has practiced all of them.  We see soulcast a rock ledge out of the air but it takes her two tries to convert ropes into smoke.  Perhaps Jasnah knowing she can't master every essence transformation focused instead on only a few.  Blood or flesh to smoke and crystal for example or air to rock for another.  These will come up commonly in combat so she practiced with them specifically the way you practice a set of swordstances one after the other until she can do them perfectly in her sleep with speed.  This would imply that Jasnah has a few quick transformations at her finger tips and can only do more complicated or different ones if she has the time.

[Pathfinder]

20 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

@Pathfinder

Jasnah may be able to observe Kaladin while protected inside her rock dome, but by that same token Kaladin doesn't have to use Stormlight since she cannot harm him from within it. He can otoh toss a big boulder at her with a quadruple or more Lashing appied, enough to shatter whatever barriers she can put up. She either has to move or cast more and more thickness to her protection. At any rate she loses the initiative, negating her greatest strength against Kaladin. 

Now I believe I have asked this before but do you see any scenario where Kaladin can beat Jasnah? But I'll expand the question a bit. Is your belief due to Jasnah's exceptional prowess or simply the Elsecaller's power set? I think Kaladin is extraordinary as a Windrunner, able to incorporate his powers seamlessly with his previous spear training to make for an extremely dangerous opponent for anyone. Do you think he loses to random Elsecaller B 10 times out of 10? Or is it just that you believe Jasnah is just that good? 

People are more than their power set. If it were just about power sets Vin gets murdered by TLR before she can take 2 steps. I can't see Jasnah losing to any random Willshaper even if said Willshaper has the advantage in power set. 

You are inferring Jasnah's battle experience just as much as I'm inferring magic costs. You are seeing her emerging from the perpendicularity bedraggled and infer she's been in many battles. It doesn't have to be many battles or one huge foe. She could have fell down a steep slope. She didn't have much in the way of Stormlight left when she escaped into the CR. My assumption is just as valid as yours. There's no definitive proof for either theory. 

I'm sure you'll respond to this; you are a thoughtful poster. I'm probably going to let you have the last word on it too. It's obvious that we disagree on the evidence presented. This is subjective anyway. However it plays out I hold no hard feelings. And I hope to all heaven that it never happens since I don't wanna lose either character.

Calderis already replied below regarding soulcasting from the barrier. Now Kaladin also would be using stormlight to stay aloft, which you stated he would do to stay out of her "range" initially. . The reason I said she would see him in through the cognitive realm would allow her to react to him while he would be unable to react to her. For example. She soulcasts the dome. if she sees him swooping in, then soulcast air to gas, spark it at last second and teleport out. Kaladin go boom. If Kaladin then slams the ground to create this giant piece of rock (remember us discussing before that he has to find a way to produce these projectiles?), and then use a whole lot of stormlight (which I think I adequately shown from the book would require a decent chunk of Kaladin's stormlight to accomplish but you disagree so not sure where to go from here regarding this), to then fling it at her with a lashing, she would have plenty of warning to take all sorts of actions. She could transfer to the cognitive which doesn't take much stormlight because she did that when she was run through with a dagger and was busy healing it. She could teleport away. Or she could cut a hole out of her own dome and step aside out of the way of this boulder. kaladin loses a bunch of stormlight, while Jasnah evades without issue. 

Yep you already asked, and yes I already answered. Please refer to a few pages back. 

If I am correct on a willshaper's power set, then Jasnah would lose the ranged advantage she has over Kaladin. The willshaper would be in her face in a moment, with a shardblade in her head. Stormlight would be used to heal the wound while the willshaper grappled her. If Jasnah soulcasted oil to get out and slip away, the willshaper would teleport right next to her again. If Jasnah teleported away, the willshaper would teleport right in front of her again. If Jasnah was able to predict where the willshaper would teleport to, and soulcast an explosion waiting for the willshaper, jasnah would get caught in the explosion because it would have to be right next to her. Basically what everyone says Kaladin would benefit from for being close to Jasnah, the willshaper would actually benefit from because it could close the distance instantaneously. That is why I feel a willshaper would potentially win against Jasnah. Conversely in order to accomplish the same goal, the willshaper would have to get into melee with Kaladin. That exchange would benefit Kaladin over the willshaper. 

That was my point of the for instance. You are assuming a lot regarding Kaladin and his capabilities. I am just evening the playing field by assuming the same for Jasnah. 

How we think the fight would go down I agree is subjective. Personally I feel I have derived my conclusions from concrete information in the books. You are perfectly entitled to disagree, and I respect that. That is why I do not see the point in pursuing it as we fundamentally disagree on how the surges work. Unless we can agree on that, the rest of this discussion becomes fundamentally pointless. I am not saying that to be derogatory. Just stating what I see it to be. It is like comparing two cooks version of chicken. How can we compare if we cannot agree on what a chicken at its base tastes like?

edit: that is why to make it clear it isn't about "who has the last word". I am pretty much at the point of stopping. Not because I am fed up or angry. But as I said, when both parties reach the point where all the information that could be shared has been, and they disagree on certain fundamental points, then an accommodation/agreement cannot be reached. All that would result is circling and talking past each other. And that isn't enjoyable for anyone. 

20 hours ago, Calderis said:

If we're talking about ranged Soulcasting... Why not? Setting up a protective barrier and then using shadesmar to soulcast seems like the perfect solution that would not be simple to counter. 

I agree

19 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I think her effective range cannot be more than 50 feet or so, likely much less. If it's as far as the eye can see then their has to be a mitigating factor, like the farther away from you that u cast the more Stormlight it takes or something. No evidence for this except for my personal observations of Brandon and how he approaches magic systems. He is interested in the limitations of magic. If casting is that OP then it makes it limitless and not fun as a consequence. Plus, we would have likely seen some indication that she can affect things from across a football field in Thalenah. Anyway I guess we'll get to see rather soon.

True Brandon includes limitations in his magic systems, but I do not think we have enough information to determine what that limitation would be regarding Jasnah's range. 

 

19 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think that we have addressed this yet but is soulcasting equal for all things.  Remeber you use different techniques for each of the 10 essences and I assume that it takes a different technique to transform essence A into essence B then C.  If this is true then their are 10 to the 9th possible techniques for every essence and it is impossible that Jasnah has practiced all of them.  We see soulcast a rock ledge out of the air but it takes her two tries to convert ropes into smoke.  Perhaps Jasnah knowing she can't master every essence transformation focused instead on only a few.  Blood or flesh to smoke and crystal for example or air to rock for another.  These will come up commonly in combat so she practiced with them specifically the way you practice a set of swordstances one after the other until she can do them perfectly in her sleep with speed.  This would imply that Jasnah has a few quick transformations at her finger tips and can only do more complicated or different ones if she has the time.

Please provide quotes. Jasnah breaks down how to use each essence to Shallan, while in the process of soulcasting them. She is well proficient in it. The different ways of soulcasting are to make it easier. You could command all the essences the same way, but you will struggle if you do so. Jasnah is well practiced enough that she knows the nuance. Just like there is levels to everything. One person can draw a stick figure. Another person can draw a landscape. Another can use dots to show a depth of character to a whole city skyline. jasnah has reached that third level. She not only soulcasts, she practically paints with it. That is part of my frustration with this. both you and bigmike are giving Kaladin all this benefit of the doubt with his capabilities, when we actually see how skilled Jasnah is with soulcasting. I have provided page after page of examples. The woman is incredible at it. it is her order's primary surge. it is the first surge she learned. 

Regarding the ropes, again please provide quotes. Are you referring to the deleted scene when she was in the cognitive realm with Ivory? When did she struggle? She was almost out of stormlight, and unlike Shallan, she commands the ropes to change and they do. I do not see any struggle. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Regarding the ropes, again please provide quotes. Are you referring to the deleted scene when she was in the cognitive realm with Ivory? When did she struggle? She was almost out of stormlight, and unlike Shallan, she commands the ropes to change and they do. I do not see any struggle. 

I am not referencing struggle I am referencing the fact that it took more then one command.  Try saying you will change two times it takes a while.  Yes a master artist can render almost anything given enough time but they still practice specific techniques and find some easier then others.  It also takes them longer and more effort to render somthingthey have not done before.  Jasnah points out the basics of soulcasting the different essences to Shallan as they move she does not get into any of the nuanced detail that I would imagine a master soulcaster uses.  She also explains that it is a practiced art meaning it takes time to get good at different aspects of it.  I know of no practiced arts where someone can say that they have mastered every aspect of it.  It stands to reason therefore that Jasnah practiced specific aspects she thought would be useful along with the basics and that she would have varying skill levels with different essences and would have a hard time working some of them under pressure. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

 

Just to be clear, I was being fair to both parties in regards to what we've observed them doing so far. If you feel that I've loaded Kaladin down with all sorts of advantages while not taking into account Jasnah's awesomeness, I would ask that you review my posts on the subject again and not confuse me with other posters. If afterwards you still feel that way then its about agreement to disagree. Note however that even if your interpretation of my words still leads you to think I've been unfair to Jasnah I still believe she wins more than she loses given what we know of her capabilities and giving each party a level boost and an equal amount of Stormlight.

My frustration lies in the idea that you think my opinions run in the opposite direction than they do. I don't think Kaladin would be the hands down winner in a contest between the two. Run the battle in a simulator 100 times and Kaladin maybe wins 30. The numbers for a Windrunner not named Kaladin Stormblessed are considerably worse facing Jasnah. Teft maybe wins 10 of those matches, I'd be surprised if Lopen won 5. By extension, Kaladin's numbers improve if he's fighting an Elsecaller not named Jasnah Kholin, closer to 50/50 but still losing more times than he wins. Probably a 60/40 split in favor of the Elsecaller due to the power set advantage the caster employs.

As for the dome thing, I'll give that one more shot. Jasnah casts a dome. She can spy on Kaladin through the CR and thus has time to craft numerous strategies, sift through likely scenarios and act upon them. That's great and all but what stops Kaladin from just walking away? She's neutralized in her little dome, she cannot attack him unless he closes the distance. Depending on the mission, her holing up could count as a win for Kal. If Jasnah's mission is to kill Kaladin she's going to leave her place of safety in order to do him harm, has to draw him into her effective range. The dome is no good for that. 

Or he could sell out, use a goodly portion of his reserves to send a large attack from outside her range. Yes Jasnah can react to anything he can do from outside her range with a high degree of success. That's not the point. The point is that moves like the dome are defensive. She must react, she has given up the initiative, she's letting Kaladin dictate the engagement. I'm not sure Jasnah would want to take an action like that against an opponent with as much battle experience as Kal. Of course the calculations are different depending on her range. If her max range is 10 feet or so she ain't putting up a dome. If it's out to the size of a football field the strategy is a bit more palatable because she can cast an entire obstacle course and force him to burn through a prohibitive amount of fuel. If she can do so to the horizon then nobody beats her except another Elsecaller. 

Anyway, Kal isn't winning at all unless he can make Jasnah run dry by keeping her on the defensive. Jasnah will know this and her strategy will therefore be to get him to close the range while she still has enough of her stockpile to cast. If she can somehow conceal her range then that's another plus. Why does everyone assume that Kaladin will be stupid enough to voluntarily close with Jasnah being full of Stormlight? Most of the strategic gambits I've seen proposed for Jasnah to win require Kaladin to be stupid, inexperienced in battle or both. Do we assume that Jasnah knows the full capacity of a full Windrunner and Kaladin goes in unaware of his opponent? 

[Karger he/him]

On 3/27/2019 at 10:51 AM, Pathfinder said:

Radiant soulcasters do not require specific gemstones

Yes they do

Rithmatist Albuquerque signing (May 22, 2013)
#12 Share Copy

 

StormAtlas (paraphrased)

Why can Kaladin Surgebind with any gem type but Jasnah and Shallan need specific types?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

A lot of that will be explained as the series comes along. It is really the difference between Soulcasting and the other forms of Surgebinding. It's more a quirk of Soulcasting than it is something that is different about about Kaladin. So you've kind of got it reversed a little bit though; Soulcasting has this additional restriction that the other ones don't.

[Calderis he/him]

33 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes they do

Don't start playing this game. 

The wob you quoted is older than the one @Pathfinder quoted that says that Radiants are less constrained. 

As is its unclear. I've heard arguments from both sides of this in a much more focused debate than this side tangent.

Personally I side with Pathfinder here though. Why the type of gemstone a Radiant uses would mater for Soulcasting, and only Soulcasting, once the stormlight is no longer in the gem but inside them is beyond me. 

[Karger he/him]

12 hours ago, Calderis said:

Radiants are less constrained. 

From the context I inferred that he meant that radiant's could more accurately produce more complex substances not that they were unable to produce any substance with any gemstone.