Neutral ideas for what I want from the next book(s)

[CrazyRioter she/her]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Lol but Dalinar could (forgetting the image of Dalinar kissing Renarin :::shudder:::: lol). He wouldn't even need to "kiss". He would just provide the stormlight as he did at Thaylenah

My impression is that is more like acting as a conduit rather than transferring Stormlight that he was using to another person.

[Pathfinder]

1 minute ago, CrazyRioter said:

My impression is that is more like acting as a conduit rather than transferring Stormlight that he was using to another person.

Illusions and surges are made of investiture/stormlight. It is already shown that Dalinar can manipulate other Radiant's surges. This portion is conjecture, but I do not think it is a stretch to imagine Dalinar being able to transfer stormlight from radiant to radiant. 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

She can transform anything into anything, and teleport. I think those two abilities are very powerful. We see a taste of one fully used at Thaylenah by Jasnah. 

Sure but those soldiers were blood crazed maniacs who were especially week to her and she was powered up by Dalinar making soulcasting easier and we have no idea what transportation actually looks like. I have a categorization system for all powers that goes something like this.  Obviously their are examples where having lower level powers are more useful but I have found that this is generally a good guide.

class 1 stupid

class 2 projection (the ability to output something usually energy but sillier things like shrink rays work two) in cosmere stealpushes would be like this

class 3 physical enhancements (the ability to do things with your body that are unusual healing factor super strength durability speed telaportation)  in cosmere basically what you get from using stormlight and Feruchemy

class 4 control over other things (the ability to make something or someone else do something it should not normally like with telekinesis or mind control) in cosmere the surges of gravitation and adhesion are a good examples

class 5 remaking worlds (the ability to substantially alter the rules globally mass mind control subverting physical laws entirely making major changes to ecology) the only examples of this in cosmere that I can think of are the Elantrins building their massive Eon and bondsmiths uses their abilities to destroy the parshendi. 

This is a pretty good example of why the bondsmiths are the most powerful.  Sure Jasnah can kill large numbers of people if she has enough stormlight but she has limits.  Her abilities are only class 3 and 4 and the class 4 abilities are pretty limited in battle Kaladin can probably kill more people more quickly then she can because his abilities allow him a wide range of motion the ability to kill people quickly hers require more stormlight and are much harder to use. Dalinar is more powerful then either of them because of his ability to change the fundamental way that everything on Roshar works. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Sure but those soldiers were blood crazed maniacs who were especially week to her and she was powered up by Dalinar making soulcasting easier and we have no idea what transportation actually looks like. I have a categorization system for all powers that goes something like this.  Obviously their are examples where having lower level powers are more useful but I have found that this is generally a good guide.

class 1 stupid

class 2 projection (the ability to output something usually energy but sillier things like shrink rays work two) in cosmere stealpushes would be like this

class 3 physical enhancements (the ability to do things with your body that are unusual healing factor super strength durability speed telaportation)  in cosmere basically what you get from using stormlight and Feruchemy

class 4 control over other things (the ability to make something or someone else do something it should not normally like with telekinesis or mind control) in cosmere the surges of gravitation and adhesion are a good examples

class 5 remaking worlds (the ability to substantially alter the rules globally mass mind control subverting physical laws entirely making major changes to ecology) the only examples of this in cosmere that I can think of are the Elantrins building their massive Eon and bondsmiths uses their abilities to destroy the parshendi. 

This is a pretty good example of why the bondsmiths are the most powerful.  Sure Jasnah can kill large numbers of people if she has enough stormlight but she has limits.  Her abilities are only class 3 and 4 and the class 4 abilities are pretty limited in battle Kaladin can probably kill more people more quickly then she can because his abilities allow him a wide range of motion the ability to kill people quickly hers require more stormlight and are much harder to use. Dalinar is more powerful then either of them because of his ability to change the fundamental way that everything on Roshar works. 

Why do you assume I mean soulcasting the enemy directly? True Jasnah was empowered but she single handedly stopped a beach head in its tracks by restoring the wall. Adolin completely changed tactics on how to help the city because of it. She soulcasted the ground beneath enemies for them to fall into pits. She soulcasted the air to oil, and then soulcasted a spark to ignite it to engulf a fused. The uses don't even have to be directly lethal. Soulcasting stairs or bridges to provide means of retreat or attack. Soulcasting food to resupply troops. Soulcasting metal to outfit conscripted troops with weapons and armor. Soulcasting aluminum once it is realized it shields against surges. And that is not counting transportation. True we do not know how it looks at the micro level from a Radiant, but we do have oathgates at the macro level. Moving troops great distances instantaneously is huge in warfare. I mean feel free to make whatever criteria you wish, at the end of the day it comes down to opinion. I respect your views. I just personally think transportation and transformation is powerful when in the right hands. 

[Karger he/him]

58 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I just personally think transportation and transformation is powerful when in the right hands. 

I am not denying that they are powerful all radiants are powerful in one way or another I am just saying that some are power powerful then Jasnah in a combat setting.

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Karger said:

I am not denying that they are powerful all radiants are powerful in one way or another I am just saying that some are power powerful then Jasnah in a combat setting.

Hmmm, maybe if I present this in the order I understood the posts to be, it will help

1. another poster stated they felt Shallan and Jasnah could handle a lot of things and would just need to be powered and protected

2. you responded (and if I take you out of context I apologize upfront) that why would that be? That there are other radiants far more powerful, Bondsmiths namely among them

3. that person, and then later myself were just pointing out why we feel those abilities of Shallan and Jasnah are powerful as well given you did in fact ask why we thought that

4. you listed your criteria of what and why you think certain powers are more powerful than others. you are perfectly entitled to your criteria, though said criteria is purely your opinion and your own way of measuring it

5. i responded as to how my criteria is different than your own, and why I see those two abilities as powerful

I will need to re-read my posts and check, but i do not believe I at any point stated nor implied that those two surges were the most powerful. I just stated why I thought they were powerful. You were the one saying there was a metric of one being more so than another. One of your means of measuring was the number of deaths that could be accomplished per amount of stormlight used. If we assume the targets are normal humans and not invested (which we must if your argument is that kaladin could lash the enemy, for he could not/more difficult to lash them if they were invested, which is the same issue soulcasting directly comes into) then I have a means to kill easily 100s of enemies without breaking a sweat. It appears to me that transforming rock into air or another amorphous substance is easier than transforming air to rock or some other solid substance. If we assume that is true, then all an elscaller would have to do is allow 100s of troops to come at them. The elsecaller would then soulcast an area the size of an olympic pool, with similar depth (so about 6 or 7 feet deep) into water. The troops would then promptly fall in. We have seen jasnah quickly make subsequent soulcastings at thaylenah (oil and them flame to ignite it), so the elsecaller could quite quickly follow up with soulcasting the air directly above the water into a thin (maybe half a foot?) sheet of metal fused/connected to the ground. The troops surprised by the fall would not have a chance to take a deep gulp of air, and probably in some cases might shout in surprise expelling air before being briefly submerged. With the very air above the water being changed into metal, there would be no airpockets present. Most people in good health can hold their breath for approximately 2 minutes. That is not counting after just running in armor, and potentially expelling your air supply in surprise as you fall into the water. The elsecaller can then teleport away and do that again to another chunk of enemies, while the original group quickly expires from drowning. They would be unable to bring to fore the force necessary to break through the metal sheet despite how thin it is. If any of them have shardblades, having the metal be made of aluminum would solve that. If any had shardplate, then Kaladin would run into the same problem of being unable to lash the plate wielder, and potentially the elsecaller would have more options in dealing with a plate wielder. I have also not even gotten into the potential of if an elsecaller studies chemistry to learn about poisons, and acids, the elsecaller could literally just soulcast mustard gas, or any other horrific bioagent in a nice large cloud to hit as many enemies at once, and then soulcast it away so as to not affect the elsecaller. So my point is, it is powerful to me. You disagree and you are entitled to, but if you ask me why I think an ability is powerful, I am going to tell you lol. 

Edited February 21, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

I suppose that is mostly correct although Kaladin has a lot of options against a plate wielder (40 lashings on a rock can pack a lot of punch) also in Dalinar's visions we see gravity increased over a large area crushing troops under the weight of several gravitates. I would also like to point out that Jasnah did those things when the realms were closer together and had access to a boatload of power.  I also think that we could go on forever proving to each other why abilities are so powerful but that would clutter this thread so I think it is a good idea for us to stop now.  We are of course both entitled to our opinions.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

I suppose that is mostly correct although Kaladin has a lot of options against a plate wielder (40 lashings on a rock can pack a lot of punch) also in Dalinar's visions we see gravity increased over a large area crushing troops under the weight of several gravitates. I would also like to point out that Jasnah did those things when the realms were closer together and had access to a boatload of power.  I also think that we could go on forever proving to each other why abilities are so powerful but that would clutter this thread so I think it is a good idea for us to stop now.  We are of course both entitled to our opinions.

40 lashings would require quite a bit of stormlight which is your argument towards Jasnah. An easy way to take out a shardbearer would be to soulcast the poison or caustic around them. They would end up inhaling it and or getting it in their eyes. Shardbearers cannot heal. The elsecaller just circumvented the main problem easily. Can you provide a reference on when in Dalinar's vision gravity increased several fold and crushed an enemy? I genuinely do not recall that scene. Could you provide a word, phrase, or page so I can pull it up on my kindle?

[Karger he/him]

From Oathbringer start with "what could break rock like that?"  Dalinar is looking at the aftermath of a radiant battle in this vision and we see that part of the battlefield is smushed.   I realty thing that if we want to keep going we should change threads.  How many normal shardbears is Jasnah going to fight?  Its not like their are many.  I am pretty sure that fused can heal.  Also I am not sure that chemical knowledge on Roshar is that great. 40 lashings on a small rock does not actually seem like that much assuming the rock is pretty small we have seen Kaladin move flying boulders at the battle of Kolinar outputting a similar amount of force on a much smaller rock could be devastating.

[Pathfinder]

36 minutes ago, Karger said:

From Oathbringer start with "what could break rock like that?"  Dalinar is looking at the aftermath of a radiant battle in this vision and we see that part of the battlefield is smushed.   I realty thing that if we want to keep going we should change threads.  How many normal shardbears is Jasnah going to fight?  Its not like their are many.  I am pretty sure that fused can heal.  Also I am not sure that chemical knowledge on Roshar is that great. 40 lashings on a small rock does not actually seem like that much assuming the rock is pretty small we have seen Kaladin move flying boulders at the battle of Kolinar outputting a similar amount of force on a much smaller rock could be devastating.

I thought this was a thought experiment? Kaladin didn't send any of his enemies during the battle skyward to plummet to their death. Nor did he sling stones at anyone. That was Szeth, and that took a lot of stormlight to move the rock. As to a lighter rock, 40 lashes is still a lot of stormlight. Kaladin used a the lashing that pulls objects towards it to take in all the arrows the parshendi fired. That lashing normally takes very little stormlight yet that use completely drained him. Now if however we are coming up with scenarios to throw them into to compare their powers (which is what I thought we were doing), then that is different. if you throw shardbearers at Jasnah, you would need to throw them at kaladin. Fairs fair. Feel free to make another thread and then I will follow up with you there. 

[Karger he/him]

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/83874-jasnah-v-kaladin/

Want to delete are posts here and put them their?

[Sedside she/her]

On 21.02.2019 at 3:17 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

True, all true. But that's still not transferring Stormlight between Radiants. If Shallan has no Stormlight left she cannot kiss a fully charged Renarin to refill her reserve.

Actually, I thought, that if fully charged Renarin kissed Shallan with an intention to transfer her his Stormlight, it could work, just like how Radiants can infuse gemstones with Stormlight. I definitely don't know enough information about how Cosmere things like Investiture works, so I'm most likely mistaken. I just wanted to point out, that your examples are more like about reusage of already "cast" Stormlight, not just deposited. I had an impression, that Radiants and gemstones are more like some kind of "vessels" for Stormlight, until they use it. Well, maybe inside Radiants those "vessels" also have to be willing to give it. Unless they meet a larkin, of course.

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

37 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Actually, I thought, that if fully charged Renarin kissed Shallan with an intention to transfer her his Stormlight, it could work, just like how Radiants can infuse gemstones with Stormlight. I definitely don't know enough information about how Cosmere things like Investiture works, so I'm most likely mistaken. I just wanted to point out, that your examples are more like about reusage of already "cast" Stormlight, not just deposited. I had an impression, that Radiants and gemstones are more like some kind of "vessels" for Stormlight, until they use it. Well, maybe inside Radiants those "vessels" also have to be willing to give it. Unless they meet a larkin, of course.

Possible. We will have to see if it's Realmatically viable. I suspect it isn't but I've been wrong before. I will admit, Stormlight CPR could add something interesting to a scene if it actually does work.

[Ciridae]

I would love to see Malata found out and throw down with the other Radiants. I really want to see Radiant v Radiant again as well as a Dustbringer hitting their enemy with everything they've got. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 minutes ago, Ciridae said:

I would love to see Malata found out and throw down with the other Radiants. I really want to see Radiant v Radiant again as well as a Dustbringer hitting their enemy with everything they've got. 

Why would she do that? Once Taranangian is found out what can he do? And what is in it for Malata? Taranangian's deal with Odium pretty much needs secrecy. Nobody outside Kharbrant is going to like it.

[Ciridae]

11 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why would she do that? Once Taranangian is found out what can he do? And what is in it for Malata? Taranangian's deal with Odium pretty much needs secrecy. Nobody outside Kharbrant is going to like it.

I'm saying if the main cast finds out that Mr T and Malata are working for Odium. 

[Sedside she/her]

Yeah, I would definitely like to learn more about Malata. She is so mysterious and at the same time disgusting, I'm intrigued

[+Oltux72 he/him]

16 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I'm saying if the main cast finds out that Mr T and Malata are working for Odium. 

Yes, but what good would fighting do for Taravangian once he has been uncovered? His plan is to become leader of the human side and betray it. that cannot work if he is known to have an alliance with Odium. He cannot hope to win such a fight. And why would Malata go down fighting for him? She seems to be the type to switch sides in such a case.