Why can you summon a Shardblade by attatching gemstones to it?

[Weltall]

18 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Pretty sure they do actually. Just from a search on the kindle version of Way of Radiance, p782:

Proof from Words of Radiance that polestone type is irrelevant

Quote

Salinor let the Blade slip from his fingers. Adolin took it and knelt beside Salinor, holding the weapon with pommel toward the man. “Break the bond.”

Salinor hesitated, then touched the ruby at the weapon’s pommel. The gemstone flashed with light. The bond had been broken.

Adolin stood, ripping the ruby free, then crushing it in a gauntleted hand.

 

Quote

I admit I'm not that versed in the Cosmere to know the metals by heart, but as far as I recall the Stormlight Archive should work as a separate series on its own. So whatever information we know on a Cosmere level is a holistic approach, that doesn't necessarily explain in detail to whatever makes fabrials work. For example, there is no indication that tanavastium doesn't have another name on Roshar.

This is irrelevant. Aluminum is known as Ralklest within the Rose Empire but it still works exactly the same as aluminum does everywhere in the Cosmere. If there's a universal principle it's going to work the same on one world as it does on another regardless of proper names and the series being (largely) intended as standalone works. So far as we can tell, nobody on Roshar has a name for the metal Honorblades and Shardblades are made from but it doesn't matter what you call it, they're still Honor's godmetal, or a mix of Honor and Cultivation's metals depending on the spren.

[insert_anagram_here]

8 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

What kind of spren would they trap, though?

The original nahel spren, the Deadeyes.

Okay so think of the Nahel Shardblade (with the First Ideal sworn) as a Physical, Cognitive and Spiritual parts of a spren connected into one piece. When a Shardblade dies, the bond between Physical and Cognitive realm is severed. The Physical part is the Shardblade itself, the Cognitive is the Deadeyes spren in Shadesmar and the gemstone acts as the mediator that connects the two. A Heliodor is used in this case, which I think is very important here both because it's connected to the Flesh Essence (other spren call dead Shardblades corpses) but also because it corresponds to the Bondsmith order, which as we know from Dalinar is capable of connecting Realms.

That's what fabrials do really, they bind spren to the Physical Realm, just to recall on their power on a later stage. And the gemstone used is important in each case. 

Now the fact that an 'oath' is being replaced in the Dead Shardblade case, somehow leads me to think that the Investiture that was supposed to fill this from the Spiritual Realm is no longer of Honor, but of something else. Somehow the Deadeye spren fills that Spiritual aspect without needing any Stormlight. Or maybe there is no Spiritual aspect to it anymore (just like fabrials as far as we know).

4 hours ago, Gasper said:

I think this got tanked the second Nightblood showed up. And the other bits that play a rather significant role in Oathbringer.

Not sure what you mean here but Nightblood isn't a normal Shardblade so I don't think it's comparable.

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

Proof from Words of Radiance that polestone type is irrelevant

Actually, that's brilliant. I don't agree that's irrelevant per se, but it could point into something else in this case. I need to re-read that bit, Thanks!  (BTW, I provided that quote to show that there are indeed gemstones on them, not to prove a point about them having to be heliodors)

3 hours ago, Weltall said:

So far as we can tell, nobody on Roshar has a name for the metal Honorblades and Shardblades are made from but it doesn't matter what you call it, they're still Honor's godmetal, or a mix of Honor and Cultivation's metals depending on the spren.

You seem knowledgable in the Cosmere stuff, what is Nightblood then?

Edited February 4, 2019 by insert_anagram_here
added reply to wetall

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Nightblood is ordinary metal infused with a large amount of Investiture. The Investiture has attained a form of awareness, but it is still bound to an actual physical object. That's why NB can't be summoned and dismissed.

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

 

5 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

You seem knowledgable in the Cosmere stuff, what is Nightblood then?

Nightblood was an ordinary sword that was Awakened and given the command to “destroy evil.” I’d assume that the other special things like how he makes good people sick and bad/greedy people lustful, or that he feeds off of investiture and turns people he touches into smoke when unsheathed was either built into the design of Nightblood, or was an interesting interpretation by the sword of what was necessary to allow Nightblood to obey the Command “destroy evil.”

Edited February 4, 2019 by IGetLIFTed

[Scion of the Mists]

7 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

16 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

What kind of spren would they trap, though? 

The original nahel spren, the Deadeyes.

The original spren can't be trapped in the gemstone - it's still present as the Shardblade.  

 

The definition of fabrial is pretty nebulous.  Artifabrians would refer only to the gemstone as a fabrial, with the surrounding being called a machine (per Coppermind), while normal Rosharans would just call the whole thing a fabrial.  However, Brandon has specifically stated that he intends, as the Cosmere cross-overs get more pronounced, for the word "fabrial" to be used for any "magic-type device."  

 

7 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

You seem knowledgable in the Cosmere stuff, what is Nightblood then?

Wow, that's a big topic.  Nightblood is...weird.  You can check out his Coppermind page for more info (but beware Stormlight and Warbreaker spoilers) or check out the many, many entries in Arcanum.  Fun fact, after Hoid, Nightblood is the most common character tagged in Arcanum.  People have a lot of questions about how he works (and what he can destroy)...

[insert_anagram_here]

Thank you, everyone, for all the information shared on Nightblood. Sorry for derailing the thread.

My question was directed mostly challenge at @Weltall who seemed very determined that it doesn't matter whether something is explained in Stormlight, as far as it's done somewhere in the Cosmere books. 
Since my point is probably being lost on the way I'll try again. It's not that the Cosmere's holistic approach is going to be debunked in any sort of way, but fabrials need to first be explained within the Rosharan System, within the SA books, before they get attached to the general theory of Realmatics. Attempting to explain them with information gained from other books isn't necessarily 100% correct, but to be used as an indication. 

Case in point the WoB that @Scion of the Mists provided above.

Nightblood isn't a typical case of a Shardblade but it is called a Shardblade nonetheless. In the same way, a Shardblade isn't a typical case of fabrial (we know as much at least) but we can't exclude the fact that it can essentially be a fabrial just as well. I don't think we have the complete information on fabrials just yet.

[Subvisual Haze]

I think the gem must form a temporary spiritual Connection between the dead spren and the wielder.  Not a connection to the degree of Radiants, but just strong enough to summon and dismiss it.  It's a temporary connection however, and relies on the gem to keep it functional. 

I think it's very likely that some sort of spren involved in Connection is trapped in the gem.  If so, it's probably the tiny blue adhesion type spren we see when Kaladin uses Adhesion surge to stick two rocks together.  Adhesion doesn't just stick objects together, it seem to temporarily create a spiritual connection so that the 2 objects are temporarily one object.

It's kind of like the forgery magic system.  It has the added benefit of being very easy to maintain though.  Whether the spren is in the physical realm or dismissed into the cognitive realm, either way the passing Highstorms will provide regular stormlight to "recharge" the gem/spren/connection.

[Scion of the Mists]

I think that you could make the argument that the gem fits the general, Cosmere-wide definition of fabrial, although I would go the other way (that's it's more of a hack of existing functionality than a separate device).  However, I don't think there's any argument that it would meet the Rosharan or Artifabrian definition (there's no spren captured in the gem).  

[Quantus he/him]

A possibility is that the Gemstone is functionally simply providing a conduit to the Spiritual Realm, which is something all Gems can to to a certain extent.  Its how the Singers perceive the Rhythms, and why a Perfect Stone still glows even though it's not loosing stormlight.  A Charged Gem is "basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual realm".  I think the Gem just facilitates the realmic transition, but the Bond is likely separate and more a function of dead spren themselves (via a Connection Effect I would assume) and the time and Proximity are more keys to forming it.  Otherwise removing and/or crushing the Gem should be enough to break the Bond on it's own, and in the WoR quote that @Weltall posted, Adolin wouldnt have needed to have the guy consciously will the bond to break first. Granted it's possible that without the gem providing that conduit the deadeye spren would unable to form such a bond, or that it needs the gem to hold Stormlight to maintain it. The fact that the guy touched the gem to break the bond implies that, but that could easily be another example of Intent adding requirements that dont really exist (similar to Szeth needing ten heartbeats to summon the Honorblade).

 

 

Quote

 

Alteroden

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alteroden

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alteroden

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

 

[Weltall]

34 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I think the Gem just facilitates the realmic transition, but the Bond is likely separate and more a function of dead spren themselves (via a Connection Effect I would assume) and the time and Proximity are more keys to forming it.  Otherwise removing and/or crushing the Gem should be enough to break the Bond on it's own, and in the WoR quote that @Weltall posted, Adolin wouldnt have needed to have the guy consciously will the bond to break first.

We have Word of Peter on the mechanics that confirm this is the case.

Quote

The gemstone is needed to create the bond and operate the bond's functions. If you remove the gemstone, the person the sword is bonded to can't summon it or dismiss it to mist. But neither can anyone else. If they eventually pop another gemstone in and try to bond it themselves, they will fail, and the original person can then resummon their Blade. The bond is with the dead spren of the Blade, not with the gemstone. The stone facilitates the bond.

So, you can haul around a de-gemstoned Blade with you all the time and successfully steal it that way. But this makes it very easy to steal back. You'd have to kill the holder of the bond in order to rebond it. Which is no different from usual.

/r/fantasy AMA 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017)

So yeah, the gem is needed to form the bond but once it's been formed, the only way to break it is to kill the Shardbearer or get them to willingly break the bond. The fact that you can replace the gemstone and the bond will still work makes it clear that there's notihng special about the gemstone used, it's just a go-between and the actual bond is between the Shardbearer and the Deadeye.

[insert_anagram_here]

So let me see if I got that right, there is a bond involved that needs the will of the Shardbearer, the Deadeye spren and the gemstone attached on the Shardblade itself. So that's basically Spiritual(will of the Shardbearer), Cognitive(Deadeye spren) and Physical(gemstone and Shardblade) aspects. And because there is that 'will of the Shardbearer' there is no need for Stormlight to fuel it?

Edited February 4, 2019 by insert_anagram_here

[Quantus he/him]

15 hours ago, Weltall said:

We have Word of Peter on the mechanics that confirm this is the case.

So yeah, the gem is needed to form the bond but once it's been formed, the only way to break it is to kill the Shardbearer or get them to willingly break the bond. The fact that you can replace the gemstone and the bond will still work makes it clear that there's notihng special about the gemstone used, it's just a go-between and the actual bond is between the Shardbearer and the Deadeye.

Nice.  So by that it sounds like the Gem's only real function is to facilitate the realmic transition involved in Summoning/Dismissing, and the bond itself operates independently.  That makes me wonder if it's possible to recreate the Summoning capability of Plate in a similar way, perhaps if you have the original pair (the Deadeye blade and it's own original Plate)?

[Rushu42 she/her]

I saw a theory about Shardplate that explains a lot, and really should be true.

The thing about this theory is that it could explain why Shardplate seems less active than Shardblades, while still clearly being alive in some way. For example, it's revealed in one of Dalinar's visions(the one with the Queen of Thaylenah) that pieces of Shardplate, specifically the helm, could be dismissed like a Shardblade. Dead Shardplate can't do this. Perhaps this points to the significance of full sentience in creating the semblance of a bond with the dead Radiant Spren. This would also explain why dead Shardplate still needs stormlight to power it, and in much greater quantities than a Shardblade. Regardless, this theory is a good one.