Why can you summon a Shardblade by attatching gemstones to it?

[Rushu42 she/her]

Looking back on it, the fact that it's possible to summon dead Shardblades is rather strange. Multiple details as to how this happens are ingrained in the books, but it's still slightly perplexing. Shardblades, at least before Radiants started showing up again, are dead spren. I suppose that since they're Splinters, they can't really die in the conventional sense of the word, but they can still die; i.e. stop being sentient or functioning, as seen with Adolin's Shardblade in the Cognitive Realm. So that means that a Shardblade is basically a corpse. So why would attatching a gem to a Shardblade restore some of its power? 

It's revealed that the 10 seconds needed to summon a Shardblade is the amount of time necessary to bring the Spren back from the dead and into the Physical Realm. We also learn, from Dalinar's visions, that Shardblades were only able to be dissmissed and summoned once gemstones were attatched to them. We also know that fabrials work by trapping spren inside of gemstones. So the immediate response would be that the gemstone traps the original Radiant spren inside the stone. But...that spren is dead. And besides, fabrials need Stormlight to function, and there's no mention of Stormlight being needed for Shardblades. Otherwise you'd need to wait between highstorms to summon it again. 

Shardplates need Stormlight, with gems needing to be replaced when they're broken or lose their Stormlight. Granted, we don't know exactly what Shardplate is, yet, but it seems odd that Shardplate needs Stormlight but Shardblades don't. Unless Shardblades do need Stormlight, but just use it up really slowly, so that we don't notice. But that also seems farfetched, as we know that quite a lot of Stormlight is necessary for something to transfer between the realms, like a dead spren in the Cognitive Realm transporting to the Physical Realm. 

Hopefully we'll get an explanation of this in one of the later books, but until then, does anyone have any theories on why this works? 

[+Ark1002]

The gemstone is only needed for the actual bonding, and it does need stormlight then.

[Weltall]

44 minutes ago, Rushu42 said:

I suppose that since they're Splinters, they can't really die in the conventional sense of the word, but they can still die; i.e. stop being sentient or functioning, as seen with Adolin's Shardblade in the Cognitive Realm. So that means that a Shardblade is basically a corpse. So why would attatching a gem to a Shardblade restore some of its power? 

The gemstone is a sort of go-between that lets the spren synchronize to the person currently holding their Physical Realm corpse. The heartbeats are how long it takes after this pseudo-bond has been established to 'wake up' the spren enough to summon the Blade. It's basically tricking the spren into a semblance of life.

Quote

It's revealed that the 10 seconds needed to summon a Shardblade is the amount of time necessary to bring the Spren back from the dead and into the Physical Realm. We also learn, from Dalinar's visions, that Shardblades were only able to be dissmissed and summoned once gemstones were attatched to them. We also know that fabrials work by trapping spren inside of gemstones. So the immediate response would be that the gemstone traps the original Radiant spren inside the stone. But...that spren is dead.

The spren is still 'dead' when it's summoned, the ten seconds are the time required to trigger the pseudo-bond and summon its Physical form back to the bearer's location. Remember that the spren is already trapped in the Physical Realm, having the bulk of their being pulled there by the original Nahel Bond. The pseudo-bond they form with a modern-day shardbearer allows the blade to be dismissed, then the heartbeats act as the triigger to summon them back.

The gemstone clearly doesn't contain the spren, as can be seen when Adolin crushes the stone in one of the Blades he wins in a duel. We see spren escape from damaged gemstones, like when Eshonai breaks the stone holding the voidspren but this doesn't happen with the gemstone attached to a Shardblade. It's the go-between, not a vessel for the spren. It's also noted that this action wasn't required because all it takes for a shardbearer to break the bond is to will it. It's like a very limited version of the Nahel Bond that's created by means of whatever mechanism makes gemstones the local magical storage medium on Roshar in the first place.

[Timothy]

The gemstones use the dead radiant spren to create a fabrial and force them to be summoned by forming a pseudo bond with the user. This the third magic system in Roshar.

/jk 

 

[Rushu42 she/her]

Interesting. That makes a lot more sense; thanks for clearing it up.

2 hours ago, Weltall said:

It's also noted that this action wasn't required because all it takes for a shardbearer to break the bond is to will it.

Hold on, though. If you can break the bond just by willling it, why can't you create it just by willing it? Maybe you can, but it's just really hard without the gemstone. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Rushu42
Typo

[+ILuvHats he/him]

42 minutes ago, Timothy said:

The gemstones use the dead radiant spren to create a fabrial and force them to be summoned by forming a pseudo bond with the user. This the third magic system in Roshar.

Where’d you get the idea that this was the third magic system?

[insert_anagram_here]

I agree that we are missing something vital in how dead Shardblades work, but I also think we are missing something vital in how fabrials work too, maybe Soulcasters as well.

Apart from the fact that fabrials work by 'trapping' spren in gemstones, we do not know how they exactly 'release' them in order for the fabrial to work, do we? (I admit I haven't read the passages containing this information as carefully as I should.)

Granted I'm not an expert at this stuff, but how I see it is that gemstones act like the mediator of something Cognitive in the Physical Realm, as a conductor perhaps. Maybe the metal used to make fabrials has something to do with the command of 'capturing' and 'releasing'? Maybe that's what the physical dead Shardblade is, that same metal.

It certainly seems that the type of gemstones used in each case matters. I think they use heliodors on the dead Shardblades right? The Tenth Essense is linked to Flesh, so maybe that dead Shardblade is indeed a spren's corpse, and the 'attachment' only works with that gem. So, does that make it a fabrial?

Now about the Shardplate, I think it's the same exact deal but with different type of spren instead. For example, we see some types of spren appearing mostly in the Cognitive and parts of them in the Physical. Windspren seem to be the exact opposite, they cannot be seen in the Cognitive. So maybe that's the difference between Shardblade spren and Shardplate spren?

Sorry, I seem to have added more questions :S

[Timothy]

13 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

Where’d you get the idea that this was the third magic system?

It was a joke, I don't think we know enough to confirm anything. Fabrials are most likely the missing magic, with the other two being Voidbinding and Surgebinding. 

I mentioned it because I think there's a good chance they work in similar ways or might even be a blade fabrial, considering fabrials are based around gemstones.

[+ILuvHats he/him]

r/woosh to me.

[+Invocation]

3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Apart from the fact that fabrials work by 'trapping' spren in gemstones, we do not know how they exactly 'release' them in order for the fabrial to work, do we? (I admit I haven't read the passages containing this information as carefully as I should.)

They don't exactly release the spren to use the fabrial, they just take advantage of what the spren does passively and enhance that effect using metal and sometimes Stormlight.

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

4 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I agree that we are missing something vital in how dead Shardblades work, but I also think we are missing something vital in how fabrials work too, maybe Soulcasters as well.

Navani explained that after trapping the spren, you can trigger a certain reaction from the spren by touching the gemstone with a metal or perform some other specific action that will elicit a response from the spren, causing heat, pain, etc.

[insert_anagram_here]

@Invocation @IGetLIFTed

So we are all reaching the same conclusion here? We need more information because Shardblade and Shardplate could essentially be fabrials.

There is some kind of reaction between metal, gemstones and spren that reacts to whatever each fabrial does. We don't know:

1. If the metal matters

2. What spren types can be 'caught'

3. If all spren can be captured in some way or another

4. What gemstone corresponds for each case

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

@insert_anagram_here

I know that heliodor is for Alerter fabrials, rubies are for Conjoining, and there’s no single gemstone for Shardblades/plate. I think amethyst is something too, maybe the Reverse ones?

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, insert_anagram_here said:

@Invocation @IGetLIFTed

So we are all reaching the same conclusion here? We need more information because Shardblade and Shardplate could essentially be fabrials.

Shardblade material is a godmetal, Tanavastium, so it's not really a fabrial, unless the definition of fabrial is a lot more broad than we thought.. It's just the manifestation of an entirely Investiture being that's been yanked into the Physical Realm. Plate probably is too, based on what we've seen, only from different types of spren.

[Timothy]

4 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

r/woosh to me.

Nah, it was pretty dumb and I put the /jk in white font.

[insert_anagram_here]

12 hours ago, IGetLIFTed said:

there’s no single gemstone for Shardblades/plate

Pretty sure they do actually. Just from a search on the kindle version of Way of Radiance, p782:

Quote

Moash glanced at Kaladin for confirmation. Kaladin nodded. The tall bridgeman walked to the side of the room, reaching out a hand to rest his fingers on the Shardblade. He ran those fingers all the way down to the hilt, then seized it, lifting the Blade in awe. Like most, it was enormous, but Moash held it easily in one hand. The heliodor set into the pommel flashed with a burst of light. 

Also in Way of Kings, p758.

Quote

“Indeed,” Sadeas said, raising an eyebrow at Adolin. “How keen-minded of you, young Kholin. This discovery—mixed with the cracked gemstones—means something. I suspect that whoever attempted to kill His Majesty planted in his Shardplate flawed gemstones that would crack when strained, losing their Stormlight. Then they weakened the saddle girth with a careful slit. The hope would be that His Majesty would fall while fighting a greatshell, allowing it to attack him. The gemstones would fail, the Plate would break, and His Majesty would fall to an ‘accident’ while hunting.” 

1

Now I just need to re-read the books and come back to you

12 hours ago, Invocation said:

Shardblade material is a godmetal, Tanavastium, so it's not really a fabrial, unless the definition of fabrial is a lot more broad than we thought..

6

I admit I'm not that versed in the Cosmere to know the metals by heart, but as far as I recall the Stormlight Archive should work as a separate series on its own. So whatever information we know on a Cosmere level is a holistic approach, that doesn't necessarily explain in detail to whatever makes fabrials work. For example, there is no indication that tanavastium doesn't have another name on Roshar.

And even if the material is as simple as 'tanavastium', that doesn't exclude it from the fact of it being a necessary component for fabrials. I'm not sure what your initial definition of 'fabrial' is tbh.

On the contrary, we tend to simplify knowledge when it's something we do not understand completely. 

I found this WoB below about tanavastium and it seems it's not as simple as 'Shardblades are made of Tanavastium', there is something more to it there. Certainly, it doesn't address dead Shardblades and the use of gemstones.

Quote

Alpharho [PENDING REVIEW]

The metal of Shardblades. Cultivationspren versus honorspren, for example. Are they different metals?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, but good question.

Alpharho [PENDING REVIEW]

Are all orders the same alloy, essentially?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. There's a little asterisk on there, but not in the way you're asking. You could call those all the same alloy. Because the mixture to different spren is different, I think that you could argue that each one is its own alloy.

Alpharho [PENDING REVIEW]

So, different proportions of tanavastium?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes, but it doesn't quite work that way with these magics. I'm going to say that's up to the individual cosmerologist who is in the world, the arcanist, defining it. You would be able to find enough differences to legitimately call them different alloys if you wanted to.

Alpharho [PENDING REVIEW]

Would you say different ratios of the same two metals?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes. They are not going to have a third one in them, if that's what you're asking. But it doesn't quite work that way. Like, if you were going to take brass, you could measure the exact percentage. In this case, it is a thing; it's not like you could divide them up and split them apart, because they are a thing. And that thing would be called one thing.

Alpharho [PENDING REVIEW]

But you won't say what that thing is called?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are <dividing them> would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant.

Skyward Denver signing (Nov. 15, 2018)

Edited February 3, 2019 by insert_anagram_here
added reply to invocation

[CrazyRioter she/her]

Right there are gemstones, but they don't need to be a specific type and in the case of Blades don't even need to be infused.

Edited February 3, 2019 by CrazyRioter

[Rushu42 she/her]

10 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

No, I won't say what that thing is called. But I think you and the 17th Sharders and folks that are <dividing them> would prefer to call them ten different things, and I think their nomenclature would be relevant.

Does the comment about 10 different things imply that there's a different alloy for each order of Radiant Spren, or am I reading that wrong?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

36 minutes ago, Rushu42 said:

Does the comment about 10 different things imply that there's a different alloy for each order of Radiant Spren, or am I reading that wrong?

Basically yeah. Functionally they appear to be the same but they are actually different alloys based on the Investiture that comprises the spren, for example Sylspear is nearly pure Tanavastium, whereas Wyndlestick is nearly pure Cultivation-metal, and Patternblade would be somewhere in between (but more Cultivation-metal based on WoB).

[galendo]

@Rushu42: That's how I'm reading it, too.  More or less.

I think Brandon's saying that the different spren are different mixtures of Honor and Cultivation.  For instance, imagine that a highspren is 80% Honor and 20% Cultivation, then maybe a Truthwatcher spren is 80% Cultivation and 20% Honor.  They're both alloys, and their properties are similar even though their components are effectively opposites.  Functionally they behave the same, even though their mixtures are diametrically opposite.  But there are minor differences that an astute scholar might notice, even if from a layperson's perspective they're identical. 

I think Brandon's also saying that you can't split the spren apart into their individual constituents.  He mentions brass, which you could theoretically.melt down and separate out the copper from the zinc.  But the spren can't be divided that way.  If you were to somehow melt down a highspren, you'd just end up with highspren goo.  You couldn't separate it back out into Honor's Investiture and Cultivation's Investiture.

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

@insert_anagram_here That one Shardblade may use heliodor, but I don’t think that all dead Shardblades use that same Polestone. It seems that in fabrials, there is consistently one gemstone that is used to trap the spren and make the fabrial. Again, ruby for Conjoining, amethyst for Reversing, heliodor for Alerting. This may not be true for Augmenter and Diminisher fabrials. I still think there is no way that Shardblades are fabrials. Honorblades and Knight Radiant Blades don’t have gemstones, only dead Shardblades, which are there so that people can bond the dead Blades. I haven’t heard of a single fabrial without a gemstone, so I just don’t think it’s possible.

1 hour ago, Rushu42 said:

Does the comment about 10 different things imply that there's a different alloy for each order of Radiant Spren, or am I reading that wrong?

He’s saying that it’s one combination, but by changing the amount of each you can make a slightly different alloy, and these 10 slightly different alloys are the metals that are in Shardblades. In other words, yes, each order of Radiant blades is made of a different alloy.

Edited February 3, 2019 by IGetLIFTed

[Kon-Tiki he/him]

Its more than just an alloy. It isn't Tanavastium doped with Cultivatium or vice versa. Each metal is molecularly uniform, but distinct from the other 9 metals

[insert_anagram_here]

1 hour ago, IGetLIFTed said:

I still think there is no way that Shardblades are fabrials. Honorblades and Knight Radiant Blades don’t have gemstones, only dead Shardblades, which are there so that people can bond the dead Blades. I haven’t heard of a single fabrial without a gemstone, so I just don’t think it’s possible.

The topic here isn't about Honoblades and KR Shardblades. It stands to reason nobody would consider those as fabrials since they don't have a gemstone attached.

But I do theorize that Dead Shardblades are essentially made into a fabrial by attaching a gemstone on them. They weren't supposed to work if the Nahel bond was severed, but the process was invented as a workaround. Like a 'short-circuit' bypassing the prerequisite of swearing the KR 1st ideal.

[IGetLIFTed she/her]

38 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said:

But I do theorize that Dead Shardblades are essentially made into a fabrial by attaching a gemstone on them.

What kind of spren would they trap, though? I don’t know what spren has abilities to imitate a Nahel bond. Plus Shardblades don’t require Stormlight, like fabrials do. Even Shardplate requires infused gemstones to work, and could be an armor version of the Veden half-shard shields. Shardblade in general just seems fundamentally different.

[Gasper he/him]

18 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I admit I'm not that versed in the Cosmere to know the metals by heart, but as far as I recall the Stormlight Archive should work as a separate series on its own. So whatever information we know on a Cosmere level is a holistic approach, that doesn't necessarily explain in detail to whatever makes fabrials work. For example, there is no indication that tanavastium doesn't have another name on Roshar.

I think this got tanked the second Nightblood showed up. And the other bits that play a rather significant role in Oathbringer.