Who will bond Yelig-Nar?

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine he/him]

Totally see your point, I just really like the God Priest of Tukar and think it would be great to see him Yelig-Narrred up. Thanks for the WoB, I'd seen that Jezrien one before, just forgot about it. And extracted, the bit about the heralds

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

who are constantly reborn, into full sized grown bodies that are being created for them.

makes you wonder who is growing these bodies for the Heralds? This whole mechanic is interesting, but based on WoB's we're probably going to have to wait until the back 5 before some of these questions get resolved. Who knows though, maybe we'll see an ardent from the Devotary of Herald Body Farming in book 4.

Edited January 16, 2019 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[CrazyRioter she/her]

I suspect Honor set up some automated mechanism to give them new bodies.

[TequilaJack]

Has Taravangian been mentioned before? 

He's old, needs more power and serves Odium ..... Prime for bonding.  

[goody153]

Seems like Yelig-Nar is set as the juggernaut of the unmade so we may see him later fully-bonded with someone who Odium deemed to be his most dangerous fighter. 

51 minutes ago, TequilaJack said:

Has Taravangian been mentioned before? 

He's old, needs more power and serves Odium ..... Prime for bonding.  

And not well-versed, nor training, nor conditioned for fighting. So i doubt he's a fit for Yelig-Nar.

He's more of a tactician, sub-leader(cause Odium is always the true leader of the opposition), spy than a fighter which Yelig-Nar seems to be the purpose as an unmade. Made for the main champion.

[YKDG22]

Why is yelig-nar in a sphere? Does this make it easier for Odium to control him? Was he just captured in such a way where he cant roam free now?

[+Invocation]

13 minutes ago, YKDG22 said:

Why is yelig-nar in a sphere? Does this make it easier for Odium to control him? Was he just captured in such a way where he cant roam free now?

He's not in a sphere permanently, it's just he needs a gemstone in someone's body to be bale to bond them. The specific stone (as far as we know) doesn't matter, they just need one.

[goody153]

3 hours ago, YKDG22 said:

Why is yelig-nar in a sphere? Does this make it easier for Odium to control him? Was he just captured in such a way where he cant roam free now?

I don't think Odium even needs him in a sphere to control him. I think Odium can do a Ruin if he needs it to be. Of course for those who are utilizing his power.

[ScavellTane]

Yelig-nar has no mind. Its his bearers will that has to be manipulated.

[Pathfinder]

13 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Yelig-nar has no mind. Its his bearers will that has to be manipulated.

Can you confirm where it says that in the book, or WoB? Not suggesting you are wrong. Just I do not recall that stated, so always open to learning something new. 

[+Invocation]

14 hours ago, ScavellTane said:

Yelig-nar has no mind. Its his bearers will that has to be manipulated.

 

58 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Can you confirm where it says that in the book, or WoB? Not suggesting you are wrong. Just I do not recall that stated, so always open to learning something new. 

From the Coppermind entry on Yelig-nar:

Quote

Exactly what level of intelligence Yelig-nar himself has is uncertain, as the people he bonds with appear to remain fully in control of themselves

So unless there's a WOB I'm unaware of (very possible) his intelligence is not concretely known.

[Zelly]

On 1/16/2019 at 1:19 PM, Ripheus23 said:

Maybe Odium will feed the Yelig-nar crystal to a chasmfiend 

Or a Ryshadium.  Giant red eyed crystallized doom horse. 

31 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Exactly what level of intelligence Yelig-nar himself has is uncertain, as the people he bonds with appear to remain fully in control of themselves

Just throwing this in, were Aesudan and Amaram fully bonded?  During his fight with Kaladin, Amaram still had crystals popping of him occasionally and seemed to be slowly developing more and more abilities as the fight went on.  I got the impression they weren't in Final Boss Form yet.

I like the idea of one of the Heralds taking Yelig-nar.  Or Ialai as someone mentioned.  Sanderson is great at swinging unexpected minor characters back into the spotlight.

[+Invocation]

1 hour ago, Zelly said:

Just throwing this in, were Aesudan and Amaram fully bonded?  During his fight with Kaladin, Amaram still had crystals popping of him occasionally and seemed to be slowly developing more and more abilities as the fight went on.  I got the impression they weren't in Final Boss Form yet.

I like the idea of one of the Heralds taking Yelig-nar.  Or Ialai as someone mentioned.  Sanderson is great at swinging unexpected minor characters back into the spotlight.

No, they were fully bonded. Aesudan couldn't control it, her soul got eaten soon after the whole Kholinar thing, but Amaram was able to control him. The only reason he seemed to be manifesting new powers was he was new to the bond, much like Kaladin instinctually doing things with Stormlight early on in the bond with Syl.

The Heralds are an interesting idea, I'll admit. It would be kind of fun to see Ishar/Tezim full on join the other side, rather than just the lashing out at everything that he's doing now. I still like the idea of Ialai I suggested early on in the thread because I'm tired of her doing what she's doing now (she feels like she's go so much more potential), and seeing as Odium used Torol Sadeas's murder to convince Amaram and his troops to feel justified in fighting, it would vaguely make sense to do the same for Ialai. 

[Pathfinder]

15 minutes ago, Invocation said:

No, they were fully bonded. Aesudan couldn't control it, her soul got eaten soon after the whole Kholinar thing, but Amaram was able to control him. The only reason he seemed to be manifesting new powers was he was new to the bond, much like Kaladin instinctually doing things with Stormlight early on in the bond with Syl.

The Heralds are an interesting idea, I'll admit. It would be kind of fun to see Ishar/Tezim full on join the other side, rather than just the lashing out at everything that he's doing now. I still like the idea of Ialai I suggested early on in the thread because I'm tired of her doing what she's doing now (she feels like she's go so much more potential), and seeing as Odium used Torol Sadeas's murder to convince Amaram and his troops to feel justified in fighting, it would vaguely make sense to do the same for Ialai. 

I have to check the scene to be sure (will do in like 10 minutes), but didn't Aesudan also start growing crystals? If so, then Amaram may not necessarily have been in control. We also do not know how long Aesudan lasted after they had left. The crystal growing could be an indication of losing control, and consumption being not far behind. 

 

edit: found it!

Oathbringer page 819

"The queen descended the stairs, wreathed in blak smoke, eyes glowing red. She'd transformed, strange crystal formations having pierced her skin like carapace. Her chest was glowing bright with a gemstone, as if it had replaced her heart. it shone through her dress." 

 

Amaram takes longer to get to that extent, but he definitely looks the same. I am pulling up that scene now. Will get it posted shortly. 

 

Oathbringer page 1176

"The highprince's entire chest had collapsed inwards. There was no sign of ribs or internal organs. Instead, a large violet crystal pulsed inside his chest cavity, overgrown with dark veins. If he'd been wearing a uniform or padding beneath his armor, it had been consumed. "

Edited January 17, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+Invocation]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I have to check the scene to be sure (will do in like 10 minutes), but didn't Aesudan also start growing crystals? If so, then Amaram may not necessarily have been in control. We also do not know how long Aesudan lasted after they had left. The crystal growing could be an indication of losing control, and consumption being not far behind. 

 

The crystal growing is just what Yelig-nar does. I personally think it's because he's channeling so much Investiture at once though a body that wasn't meant to hold that much (all 10 Surges is a lot of Investiture), but the likely scenario is that once you lose control of Yelig-nar, you're pretty much gone anyway. With how much of Amaram's body was crystals by the time all was said and done, he was nearly completely settled into his bond, more than likely.

[Pathfinder]

8 minutes ago, Invocation said:

The crystal growing is just what Yelig-nar does. I personally think it's because he's channeling so much Investiture at once though a body that wasn't meant to hold that much (all 10 Surges is a lot of Investiture), but the likely scenario is that once you lose control of Yelig-nar, you're pretty much gone anyway. With how much of Amaram's body was crystals by the time all was said and done, he was nearly completely settled into his bond, more than likely.

So just finished posting the quotes from both scenes (please refer to my last post). There is no difference between Aesudan and Amaram in those scenes. So if there ultimately would be any difference, it would have happened after Kaladin and co left, or had Amaram lived longer, but from the scenes we are able to see, they reach the same stage. Both have their chest cavity being full of gemstones, both lucid, and able to speak as themselves. So I do not think from what little we see, that we can say Amaram had any more control than Aesudan. 

 

edit: little follow up tidbit. The way Aesudan talks about Yelig-nar implies to me that it does have intelligence. Otherwise why make a point of saying Ashertman is mindless? I feel the juxtaposition is intentional, but that is just my reading of the below scene:

Oathbringer page 813

She laughed "Yelig-nar serves me. Or do you speak of the Heart of the Revel? Ashertmarn has no will; he is merely a force of consumptions, mindless, to be harnessed. 

Edited January 17, 2019 by Pathfinder

[+Invocation]

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So just finished posting the quotes from both scenes (please refer to my last post). There is no difference between Aesudan and Amaram in those scenes. So if there ultimately would be any difference, it would have happened after Kaladin and co left, or had Amaram lived longer, but from the scenes we are able to see, they reach the same stage. Both have their chest cavity being full of gemstones, both lucid, and able to speak as themselves. So I do not think from what little we see, that we can say Amaram had any more control than Aesudan. 

 

edit: little follow up tidbit. The way Aesudan talks about Yelig-nar implies to me that it does have intelligence. Otherwise why make a point of saying Ashertman is mindless? I feel the juxtaposition is intentional, but that is just my reading of the below scene:

Oathbringer page 813

She laughed "Yelig-nar serves me. Or do you speak of the Heart of the Revel? Ashertmarn has no will; he is merely a force of consumptions, mindless, to be harnessed. 

Amaram also talks about him like they're speaking together, so intelligence is likely, I'd just forgotten about that bit until just now.

I do think Amaram was beginning to lose control by the end because that's what Kaladin was trying to do, it's why he was verbally sparring with Amaram as much as physically sparring, but he was in control enough to still experience legitimate emotions for a good period of time. At the end, though, he was probably driven mad by pain and anger, just in time to get killed.

Aesudan might have lost control because Yelig-nar was struggling within her, actively trying to overwhelm her, unlike Amaram, leading the way for Odium to move in with his forces directly once she was gone.

[Ripheus23]

Nightblood will bond Yelig-nar and the Night of Sorrows will become the Night of Blood  The Transdesolation cometh, en garde!

[Dalakaar he/him]

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

edit: little follow up tidbit. The way Aesudan talks about Yelig-nar implies to me that it does have intelligence. Otherwise why make a point of saying Ashertman is mindless? I feel the juxtaposition is intentional, but that is just my reading of the below scene:

Oathbringer page 813

She laughed "Yelig-nar serves me. Or do you speak of the Heart of the Revel? Ashertmarn has no will; he is merely a force of consumptions, mindless, to be harnessed. 

Theory with some relevance to this. That more hyphens in an Unmade correspond to a higher level of sapience/sentience. 

Source

[+Invocation]

42 minutes ago, Dalakaar said:

Theory with some relevance to this. That more hyphens in an Unmade correspond to a higher level of sapience/sentience. 

 

So does that make Ba-Ado-Mishram the most intelligent of the Unmade?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

My guess re Yelig-nar is that he's about on Re-Shephir's level, more than mere instinct like Nergoaul or Ashartman but not quite fully sapient.

Ba-Ado-Mishram seems to be one of the two candidates for smartest Unmade, the other being Sja-anat. Of course there's still a couple of Unmade we know nothing about (Dai-Gnothis and Chemorash).

[Ciridae]

Do we know how long Aesudan had the gem ingested? As soon as Amaram swallowed it he started transforming. But it seems to me like Aesudan had swallowed the gem long before and was just "activating" it when Kaladin and Elhokar came along. Is it possible to  transform back from the crystal body? I wouldn't think so, because it's messing with your spirit web pretty severely but anything is possible. 

[Quantus he/him]

6 hours ago, Ciridae said:

Do we know how long Aesudan had the gem ingested? As soon as Amaram swallowed it he started transforming. But it seems to me like Aesudan had swallowed the gem long before and was just "activating" it when Kaladin and Elhokar came along. Is it possible to  transform back from the crystal body? I wouldn't think so, because it's messing with your spirit web pretty severely but anything is possible. 

Probably depends on the nature of the process. If it's like a Listener Form it might be reversible, and I think that's likely since it appears to act as a Gemheart.  I tend to think Amaram was being more actively manipulated and/or accelerated by Odium directly, he seemed to be taking command of a lot of things during that battle. 

8 hours ago, CrazyRioter said:

My guess re Yelig-nar is that he's about on Re-Shephir's level, more than mere instinct like Nergoaul or Ashartman but not quite fully sapient.

I'd go with that.  I tend to consider Yelig-Nar as the Ultimate Form of Power (with the Gem acting as a supplemental gemheart) and the Forms (even forms of Power) are specifically provided by the "lesser" spren rather than the fully-sapient types.

 

As far as who might get him, I dont think it will need to be a Fighter like Amaram. We're talking about a person who gets ALL surges, which would imply that Anything Radiants can do s/he can do.  That would theoretically include the non-combat things like Elsecalling, Truthwatching (whatever that is) and what Im pretty sure are damnation scary spiritual things that a Bondsmith could do.  Not to mention the potential for all kinds of unique resonances.  The other question I have is which Version of the surges they'd get? Even setting aside the potential Inverted Surges of Voidbinding, Bondsmiths and Stonewards use Tension differently, so I wonder what manifest differences might come. 

If I had to guess on a new bearer purely based on narrative potential, I'd look to Mrall:  he has the ability/Authority to put Mr.T in a metaphoric (maybe literal) box, a fact that I fully expect will be exploited at some point. He's a linchpin...

 

[galendo]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I'd go with that.  I tend to consider Yelig-Nar as the Ultimate Form of Power (with the Gem acting as a supplemental gemheart) and the Forms (even forms of Power) are specifically provided by the "lesser" spren rather than the fully-sapient types.

You know, that's a good point.  We know that Honor's spren copied what Honor had done in creating the Honorblades to become Radiant spren.  Why shouldn't Odium's spren have copied what Odium did in creating the Unmade?  Whether the spren that grant the froms of power are sapient or not we don't really know, but they certainly seem to provide more power than those forms obtained by bonding regular spren.

Quote

As far as who might get him, I dont think it will need to be a Fighter like Amaram. We're talking about a person who gets ALL surges, which would imply that Anything Radiants can do s/he can do.  That would theoretically include the non-combat things like Elsecalling, Truthwatching (whatever that is) and what Im pretty sure are damnation scary spiritual things that a Bondsmith could do.

Do we know that Yelig-nar grants all the surges?  The Fused only seem to have nine, so it wouldn't seem terribly out-of-place for Yelig-Nar to only grant nine, too.

For narrative purposes, though, I'm guessing that someone combat-oriented will get Yelig-nar.  Someone seen as obviously dangerous, so that the "upgrade" is clearly The Real Deal.  Amaram could have worked in this role; Aesudan not so much.  Because once you've killed Amaram-as-Yelig-nar, you need the next person to be even more of an obvious threat.  It's not that it couldn't be done with a stealth-type character -- someone like Jasnah would work -- but it's harder to set up a stealth-type character, and I don't think there are any such candidates in the works, other than maybe Ialai Sadeas.

[CrazyRioter she/her]

The spren that provide forms of power are non-sapient. The Fused that took Demid's body says as much.

[Quantus he/him]

53 minutes ago, galendo said:

You know, that's a good point.  We know that Honor's spren copied what Honor had done in creating the Honorblades to become Radiant spren.  Why shouldn't Odium's spren have copied what Odium did in creating the Unmade?  Whether the spren that grant the froms of power are sapient or not we don't really know, but they certainly seem to provide more power than those forms obtained by bonding regular spren.

As @CrazyRioter said, there's a scene with Demid and Venli that confirms the forms are all lesser spren.

53 minutes ago, galendo said:

Do we know that Yelig-nar grants all the surges?  The Fused only seem to have nine, so it wouldn't seem terribly out-of-place for Yelig-Nar to only grant nine, too.

The Coppermind says "all ten" specifically but that is based on a OB epigraph that says "Yelig-nar had great powers, perhaps the powers of all Surges compounded in one. He could transform any Voidbringer into an extremely dangerous enemy. Curiously, three legends I found mention swallowing a gemstone to engage this process." so it could be referring to the nine Fused surges rather than the ten Radiant surges, or for that matter the ten Voidbinding Surges, all of which seem to operate differently. Given that those epigraphs are from Hessi's Mythica, though, I tend to think she would have been referring to the far more well-known and understood Radiant surges.  But even then it is all In-World speculation, rather than a WOB. 

53 minutes ago, galendo said:

For narrative purposes, though, I'm guessing that someone combat-oriented will get Yelig-nar.  Someone seen as obviously dangerous, so that the "upgrade" is clearly The Real Deal.  Amaram could have worked in this role; Aesudan not so much.  Because once you've killed Amaram-as-Yelig-nar, you need the next person to be even more of an obvious threat.  It's not that it couldn't be done with a stealth-type character -- someone like Jasnah would work -- but it's harder to set up a stealth-type character, and I don't think there are any such candidates in the works, other than maybe Ialai Sadeas.

I tend to lean the other direction, that it would be more interesting for the "upgrade" to take somebody that was clearly no threat at all and make them a surprise Big-Bad.  By that criteria alone I'd actually put Dabbid fairly high on the list, come to think of it.